Trump's lawyer-President does not have to support Constitution

[HarleyDog]

(10-14-2023, 01:03 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: The sky is actually a bright pink and the earth is velociraptor shaped. I am 100% convinced of this thus it is not a lie, despite all empirical evidence.

If you truly believed it, then it wouldn’t be a lie to you if you were openly claiming it.

[*pally*]

(10-14-2023, 03:04 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: At the time you can't prove he was lying. 

We have been hearing about vote fraud for years. When it was as close as it was, yea it's a bit odd and definitely worth the recount.

Your opinion isn't the only one that matters just because others have a different opinion than yours.

Trump claimed "rigged" voting before any votes were actually cast.  Of course he also claimed a rigged vote when The Apprentice (and by extension, him) didn't win any Emmys.  He doesn't think he can and should lose

Trump has claimed without presenting any actual evidence.  And of course, they only benefitted Democrats

-millions of non-citizens voting 
-busloads of people from neighboring states being bussed into polling stations to Democratic in order to defeat Republicans
-people changing clothes in their car and going back into polling stations to vote as somebody else
-dead people voting by the scores
-ballot factories filling out absentee or mail-in ballots
-voting in multiple states 
-machines magically changing votes or outside forces putting votes in the system 
-manipulated counting
-Republican ballots being thrown away
-the one complaint that is true---they didn't stop counting the votes when he was leading the race

Now all of this stuff is pretty easily provable.  In fact media took the lists of people they claimed were dead or out of state and proved that they were very much alive and/or legally allowed to vote absentee (mostly military votes).

If Trump truly believes the election was rigged despite the plethora of evidence that it wasn't, then he lacks the critical thinking skills required of a President

[BigPapaKain]

(10-14-2023, 04:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: If you truly believed it, then it wouldn’t be a lie to you if you were openly claiming it.

A lie by ignorance is still a lie. Especially when you continue to push the lie in the face of all contrary evidence without producing an equal amount of evidence.

[HarleyDog]

(10-15-2023, 02:48 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: A lie by ignorance is still a lie. Especially when you continue to push the lie in the face of all contrary evidence without producing an equal amount of evidence.

Your really going to harp on my statement? 

[BigPapaKain]

(10-16-2023, 01:26 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Your really going to harp on my statement? 

You're really going to sit there and keep saying that the party that is STILL saying the election was rigged despite all the evidence proving it wasn't is innocent of being caught in a lie?

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 03:35 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: You're really going to sit there and keep saying that the party that is STILL saying the election was rigged despite all the evidence proving it wasn't is innocent of being caught in a lie?

I was claiming DT may not believe it's a lie because of his  belief's. But it's ok, we've already worn this topic out. Let's move on.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 03:53 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was claiming DT may not believe it's a lie because of his  belief's. But it's ok, we've already worn this topic out. Let's move on.

It's a bit hard to move on in a sense since Trump still says the election was rigged, and there is pretty much a 100% chance he's going to declare the 2024 election is rigged if he hasn't done so already.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-16-2023, 03:53 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was claiming DT may not believe it's a lie because of his  belief's. But it's ok, we've already worn this topic out. Let's move on.

Yeah, no - that defense flies out the window when we're sitting here, 3 years later, and he's still claiming it was rigged.

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 04:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's a bit hard to move on in a sense since Trump still says the election was rigged, and there is pretty much a 100% chance he's going to declare the 2024 election is rigged if he hasn't done so already.

I would respond to this, but it will be the same answer. So why? I was talking about the mental health.

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 05:10 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Yeah, no - that defense flies out the window when we're sitting here, 3 years later, and he's still claiming it was rigged.

Defense? No, it's not a defense. I was simply giving my observation. Dang. 

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 05:16 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I would respond to this, but it will be the same answer. So why? I was talking about the mental health.

Trump knows the election wasn't rigged, he just knows that a lot of people in this country see a man who refuses to admit he was wrong or lost as being strong.  Voters are the mentally ill ones, and that's not just reserved for Trump supporters but damn if they don't take fooling themselves to 11.

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 05:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Trump knows the election wasn't rigged, he just knows that a lot of people in this country see a man who refuses to admit he was wrong or lost as being strong.  Voters are the mentally ill ones, and that's not just reserved for Trump supporters but damn if they don't take fooling themselves to 11.

Ok.

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 05:55 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Ok.

See, I can tell you don't believe what you just said.  No mind-reading necessary.

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 06:03 PM)Nately120 Wrote: See, I can tell you don't believe what you just said.  No mind-reading necessary.

Untrue. But the trolling is pretty lame. I made a statement, I stand by it, you and others have made your rebuttal and your point has been recognized. Not doing the pounce on HD thing. Like I said, I said it, I stand by it.  

[*Nately120*]

(10-16-2023, 06:15 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Untrue. But the trolling is pretty lame. I made a statement, I stand by it, you and others have made your rebuttal and your point has been recognized. Not doing the pounce on HD thing. Like I said, I said it, I stand by it.  

I'm not trying to change your mind, I just think "It's only a lie if you can prove the person who says it knows it isn't true" opens the door to what I think is interesting discussion on what really goes into judgment on this sort of thing.

To me it is interesting to ask how we can prove what anyone is thinking or when anyone is lying.  To help make my point, I could tell you that I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 and I'm not voting for him in 2024 because he's lying about the election being rigged.  Even if you use the piles of evidence that I supply that I didn't do such a thing, you can't prove that I don't currently think that I did.

It's the old "It's not a lie if you believe it" thing gone from sit com to mainstream politics.  I'm a society-watcher and stuff like this is fascinating. 

[HarleyDog]

(10-16-2023, 06:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not trying to change your mind, I just think "It's only a lie if you can prove the person who says it knows it isn't true" opens the door to what I think is interesting discussion on what really goes into judgment on this sort of thing.

To me it is interesting to ask how we can prove what anyone is thinking or when anyone is lying.  To help make my point, I could tell you that I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 and I'm not voting for him in 2024 because he's lying about the election being rigged.  Even if you use the piles of evidence that I supply that I didn't do such a thing, you can't prove that I don't currently think that I did.

It's the old "It's not a lie if you believe it" thing gone from sit com to mainstream politics.  I'm a society-watcher and stuff like this is fascinating. 

Fair enough.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-16-2023, 05:17 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Defense? No, it's not a defense. I was simply giving my observation. Dang. 

You're making excuses for a dude caught in a lie who continues to perpetuate said lie.

You know he doesn't believe it now, you know he didn't believe it in 2020, and you know he didn't believe it in 2016 - especially after he won. He just said it because it made his Twitter notifications go off and he gets his jollies from being the center of attention.

[Dill]

(10-16-2023, 06:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not trying to change your mind, I just think "It's only a lie if you can prove the person who says it knows it isn't true" opens the door to what I think is interesting discussion on what really goes into judgment on this sort of thing.

To me it is interesting to ask how we can prove what anyone is thinking or when anyone is lying.  To help make my point, I could tell you that I voted for Trump in 2016 and 2020 and I'm not voting for him in 2024 because he's lying about the election being rigged.  Even if you use the piles of evidence that I supply that I didn't do such a thing, you can't prove that I don't currently think that I did.

It's the old "It's not a lie if you believe it" thing gone from sit com to mainstream politics.  I'm a society-watcher and stuff like this is fascinating. 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Trump really believes his election lie.

1. That means that he has not the power to distinguish reality from fantasy.  In the last days of his presidency, he ignored truth-tellers and preferred crazy counsel from unstable people who sought proximity to power by giving Trump (illegal) hope that he could retain power. (Some might object that he didn't ignore all bad counsel: e.g., he did not attempt to seize voting machines.) 

2. I could let that pass along with the many other crazy things people believe no matter what--like the belief some have that Trump still controls the US military or Hilary traffics children out of pizza parlors. But we are talking about someone who could be the next president, with all the power and prerogative that comes with that--someone impervious to the kind of data, empirical evidence and sober judgment that pollical leaders require when making policy decisions. 

3. One consequence of 2: Trump seems "sincerely" unable to distinguish between legal and illegal behavior. That was evident through both impeachments ("perfect" phone calls!), and it continues with his insistence that he owns the classified documents he stole. He believes his own lie in that case as well. 

So this brings us to the disturbing part. MAGA supporters who defend Trump's illegal behavior with the claim "he really believed it" seem comfortable with what that means about his judgment. They still want a president who picks counselors who tell him what he wants to hear, who cannot seem to understand what the law/Constitution says regarding presidential powers, and who will break the law to stay in power if he really "believes" he is in the right. That makes me think that, in fact, it would make no difference for them if Trump were lying and they knew that for sure. They, like him, are also ignoring evidence and "good counsel" when it doesn't suit them. They may be unsure whether he really doesn't own the classified documents he stole, or whether he really tried to usurp an office no longer his, but they don't care much either way. The other side is just as bad. Somehow.

[*Nately120*]

(10-18-2023, 09:01 AM)Dill Wrote: So this brings us to the disturbing part. MAGA supporters who defend Trump's illegal behavior with the claim "he really believed it" seem comfortable with what that means about his judgment.

You make good points.  I'm just bitterly amused and flummoxed by all of this because I haven't seen the "I really believed...." and the "I was just talking, I didn't do anything" defense used since Chris Hansen was grilling some soon-to-be sex offender on national television on To Catch a Predator.

I mean, those guys REALLY believed the girl they were there to see was 18 and all that talk about (insert graphic sexual talk here) was just free speech, so what's the big deal?  Hell, why don't we just tell all those invading illegals to just say that they believe they're still in Mexico when they get caught here illegally?  Present all the evidence you want that Duluth MN isn't Mexico, but you can't prove they don't believe they're still in their own country.

How about conservatives soften on crime?  I assure you the guy who held someone at gunpoint really did believe his next snootfull of cocaine was worth robbing someone, after all.

[Dill]

(10-18-2023, 09:29 AM)Nately120 Wrote: How about conservatives soften on crime?  I assure you the guy who held someone at gunpoint really did believe his next snootfull of cocaine was worth robbing someone, after all.

So he was holding a gun. Guns are LEGAL in America Mr liberal elitist.

So is free speech.

You are assuming a lot when you say the gun was connected to his demand for money.

We can never truly know what is in a person's heart.