Trump says what a lot of people think

[BakertheBeast]

As the title of this thread says, Trump says what a lot of people think but wouldn't say it in mix company and I'm talking about race. I think 99% of the people in this country to some degree are prejudice against someone or something someone did. You get one young black man walking thru the mall with his pants down around his hips bumping into people and being rude, would make a lot of white people dislike all blacks. Generalization is the killer here. Its a lot easier to hate people when its easier to tell the difference between them and you, if your white. Trump has tapped into an emotion in millions of people whom have at one time thought or said  some of the "racist" remarks he makes. This show why politics is so dirty, whatever it takes to win. Trump is no more racist than most of America, he just brought it out of the closet. Does anyone think there is any truth to this?

[hollodero]

(08-08-2019, 07:30 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: As the title of this thread says, Trump says what a lot of people think but wouldn't say it in mix company and I'm talking about race. I think 99% of the people in this country to some degree are prejudice against someone or something someone did. You get one young black man walking thru the mall with his pants down around his hips bumping into people and being rude, would make a lot of white people dislike all blacks. Generalization is the killer here. Its a lot easier to hate people when its easier to tell the difference between them and you, if your white. Trump has tapped into an emotion in millions of people whom have at one time thought or said  some of the "racist" remarks he makes. This show why politics is so dirty, whatever it takes to win. Trump is no more racist than most of America, he just brought it out of the closet. Does anyone think there is any truth to this?

In general, yes. I'd add that figures like Trump not only reflect prevalent notions, but also can envoke and in some sense create them.

Civility is such a thin layer... often just held up by the community, as some kind of public pressure. Some folks know their more racist sentiments are wrong, as long as no one comes around that declares them not wrong, but insightful and maybe even brave instead. It can be persuasive. The Trumps of this world do have that effect - I've seen it in my country time and again.

[NATI BENGALS]

I would say there is probably tribal survival instincts ingrained in all of us that make us aware and unsure of anyone who doesnt look like they would be in our tribe.

[BmorePat87]

(08-08-2019, 07:30 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: As the title of this thread says, Trump says what a lot of people think but wouldn't say it in mix company and I'm talking about race. I think 99% of the people in this country to some degree are prejudice against someone or something someone did. You get one young black man walking thru the mall with his pants down around his hips bumping into people and being rude, would make a lot of white people dislike all blacks. Generalization is the killer here. Its a lot easier to hate people when its easier to tell the difference between them and you, if your white. Trump has tapped into an emotion in millions of people whom have at one time thought or said  some of the "racist" remarks he makes. This show why politics is so dirty, whatever it takes to win. Trump is no more racist than most of America, he just brought it out of the closet. Does anyone think there is any truth to this?

While I agree that all people have some inherent level of bias, the idea that he is not more racist than the average American is one I cannot accept.

The average American hasn't been sued by the federal government to force them to treat black people equally at work. The average American hasn't called referred to white supremacists as "good people". The average American hasn't said half of what he has said.

I do not think he is anymore racist than his core base, but that's not a high bar. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

He just has different morays than most people.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-08-2019, 07:30 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: As the title of this thread says, Trump says what a lot of people think but wouldn't say it in mix company and I'm talking about race. I think 99% of the people in this country to some degree are prejudice against someone or something someone did. You get one young black man walking thru the mall with his pants down around his hips bumping into people and being rude, would make a lot of white people dislike all blacks. Generalization is the killer here. Its a lot easier to hate people when its easier to tell the difference between them and you, if your white. Trump has tapped into an emotion in millions of people whom have at one time thought or said  some of the "racist" remarks he makes. This show why politics is so dirty, whatever it takes to win. Trump is no more racist than most of America, he just brought it out of the closet. Does anyone think there is any truth to this?

No offense, but this is a load of shit. Trump has no filter, true and many people like that, also true, but no one looks at a black person with their pants on the ground and thinks that's ok to hate all black people. They either already hate all black people or they just don't like that particular black person and would equally not like a white person dressed the same and doing the exact same thing.

About the only things you got right in your post is that Trump is not the racist liberals make him out to be and there is still racism in America.

[Dill]

(08-08-2019, 01:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: About the only things you got right in your post is that Trump is not the racist liberals make him out to be and there is still racism in America.

Can you expand on this a bit?  How do liberals get Trump wrong?

[*PhilHos*]

(08-08-2019, 05:24 PM)Dill Wrote: Can you expand on this a bit?  How do liberals get Trump wrong?

Example off the top of my head: Trump calls MS13 gang members animals. Liberals claim Trump is racist for calling illegal immigrants animals.

[Dill]

(08-08-2019, 05:34 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Example off the top of my head: Trump calls MS13 gang members animals. Liberals claim Trump is racist for calling illegal immigrants animals.

If I remember, we had a thread on the "animals" comment, which occurred in a transition in discussion from MS-13 to immigration in general.

If there are many other examples of Trump's racist comments or behavior, then Liberals getting it wrong once would not mean Trump is not the racist he is made out to be.

He is still the guy who characterized illegal Mexican immigrants as "rapists" bringing crime and drugs to the US, and described those fleeing the triangle as an "invasion" bringing disease.

To show Liberals have it wrong, you need to show why his support of birtherism is not racism, or his editorial on the Central Park five, or his refusal to rent to black tenants back in the '70s, the seemingly instinctive "go back to where you came from" directed at four congresswomen of color. Seems like a pattern. 

If Trump is "unflitered" and says what a lot of people think, this looks like the kind of implicit or unconcious racism so often the subject of discussion nowdays. It just pops out consistently in moments when judgment involves non-white subjects, not white.

Do liberals have that wrong?

[*PhilHos*]

(08-08-2019, 06:01 PM)Dill Wrote: If I remember, we had a thread on the "animals" comment, which occurred in a transition in discussion from MS-13 to immigration in general.

If there are many other examples of Trump's racist comments or behavior, then Liberals getting it wrong once would not mean Trump is not the racist he is made out to be.

He is still the guy who characterized illegal Mexican immigrants as "rapists" bringing crime and drugs to the US, and described those fleeing the triangle as an "invasion" bringing disease.

To show Liberals have it wrong, you need to show why his support of birtherism is not racism, or his editorial on the Central Park five, or his refusal to rent to black tenants back in the '70s, the seemingly instinctive "go back to where you came from" directed at four congresswomen of color. Seems like a pattern. 

If Trump is "unflitered" and says what a lot of people think, this looks like the kind of implicit or unconcious racism so often the subject of discussion nowdays. It just pops out consistently in moments when judgment involves non-white subjects, not white.

Do liberals have that wrong?

Pretty much. 

Aside from the refusing to rent to black tenants, none of what you posted is Trump being racist. Every single thing you posted has either been twisted to make something Trump said seem racist or it's been a criticism Trump levied towards a person(s) of color and, of course, he was critical because he was racist.

Ever since I started getting involved in politics (during the Bob Dole-Bill Clinton presidential race) EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING RACIST. Even many of the candidates in the PRIMARIES.

Trump has no filter and has said some God-awful stupid things, but it's amazing to me how so many liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-08-2019, 07:30 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: As the title of this thread says, Trump says what a lot of people think but wouldn't say it in mix company and I'm talking about race. I think 99% of the people in this country to some degree are prejudice against someone or something someone did. You get one young black man walking thru the mall with his pants down around his hips bumping into people and being rude, would make a lot of white people dislike all blacks. Generalization is the killer here. Its a lot easier to hate people when its easier to tell the difference between them and you, if your white. Trump has tapped into an emotion in millions of people whom have at one time thought or said  some of the "racist" remarks he makes. This show why politics is so dirty, whatever it takes to win. Trump is no more racist than most of America, he just brought it out of the closet. Does anyone think there is any truth to this?

[NATI BENGALS]

(08-08-2019, 06:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Pretty much. 

Aside from the refusing to rent to black tenants, none of what you posted is Trump being racist. Every single thing you posted has either been twisted to make something Trump said seem racist or it's been a criticism Trump levied towards a person(s) of color and, of course, he was critical because he was racist.

Ever since I started getting involved in politics (during the Bob Dole-Bill Clinton presidential race) EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING RACIST. Even many of the candidates in the PRIMARIES.

Trump has no filter and has said some God-awful stupid things, but it's amazing to me how so many liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe. 

Just because you are sick of hearing people cry "that's racist" doesn't make a racist less racist. 

[Dill]

(08-08-2019, 06:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Pretty much. 

Aside from the refusing to rent to black tenants, none of what you posted is Trump being racist. Every single thing you posted has either been twisted to make something Trump said seem racist or it's been a criticism Trump levied towards a person(s) of color and, of course, he was critical because he was racist.

Ever since I started getting involved in politics (during the Bob Dole-Bill Clinton presidential race) EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING RACIST. Even many of the candidates in the PRIMARIES.

Trump has no filter and has said some God-awful stupid things, but it's amazing to me how so many liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe. 

I didn't realize anyone called Dole racist. Clinton was, wasn't he? Who is doing all this calling?

1.  Could you perhaps agree that the behavior I listed is at least bad?  Not "stupid," but actually BAD? 

2. Also, following Nati's question, is the defense of Trump more about a defense of Republicans?

3. Finally, you expand the topic with reference to misogynistic and xenophobic behavior.  I get that people have blurred the definitions of "racist" so much that people can only agree upon explicitly racist behavior anymore. Thus it is "twisting" birtherism to say it is racist,; same for telling people of color to go back where they came from. But there seems to be a lot there to "twist," doesn't there?

And surely we can agree that Trump is a misogynist? Right? The only way out of that is to say it is not misogynistic to brag of sexual assault, to publicly call women pigs and otherwise demean their looks. If women accuse him of sexual assault, a proper response is not to claim they were too ugly, is it?  Liberals have it wrong when they condemn this behavior? And that is worse than having a president who does these things? You are right to defend Trump against them? I really don't get that.

Same for xenophobic behavior.

It is not "universally agreed" that Trump is racist, misogynistic and xenophobic, but why isn't that part of the problem? Some welcome and celebrate his behavior; others deny it is what it is. The definitions of bad behavior have to be stretched and changed, to forge a pass for Trump.

The debate over Trump seems to be a debate about what the US really is.

[hollodero]

(08-08-2019, 06:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Trump has no filter and has said some God-awful stupid things, but it's amazing to me how so many liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe. 

Just to get this straight. This is the guy who sponsored the birther movement. Who asked a crowd to boo a judge based on his Mexican name. Who said Mexicans are sending crime, drugs and rapists and maybe some good people. Who uses the words "invasion" for immigrants and tweeted about "breeding" in sanctuary cities. Who repeatedly retweets known right-wing extremists like those from #White genocide (75 retweets), including a fake video of immigrants beating up a crippled kid. Who said there were good people marching alongside Nazis and supremacists. Who called african countries shitholes, suggested all Haitians have AIDS and asked for more Norwegian immigrants instead. Who told four congresswomen of color to go back where they came from. Who seriously suggested to deal with muslims how some general allegedly handled them - by dipping bullets in pig blood before shooting them. Who alleged thousands of thousands of muslims were celebrating the 9/11 attacks in New Jersey. Who falsely accuses five black teenagers of murder even after being cleared. Who gets endorsed by David Duke and doesn't seem to mind. Who claims 81% of murders of white people are committed by blacks and that there are places in the inner cities where you get shot when walking down the streets. Who pardoned Joe Arpaio. Who demanded the conspiracy of mass murder of white farmers in South Africa is investigated. Who has a history of refusing black tenants, telling his black employees in his casino to go to the back and who once said "laziness is a trait in blacks, it's not anything they can control".

And yet you wonder how Trump is seen as racist?


Who also called women fat pigs, slobs, dogs or animals or bleeding out of their whatever or bleeding badly from a face-lift. [Spare me a similarly long list of examples]. And yet...?

But as soon as someone suggests these things might be racist, xenophobic or misogynistic, you simply allege that this is what hits every republican candidate. As if these things were thrown at everyone from Rubio to Carson as well. Isn't that a bit too easy?

[Dill]

(08-09-2019, 05:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: Just to get this straight. This is the guy who sponsored the birther movement. Who asked a crowd to boo a judge based on his Mexican name. Who said Mexicans are sending crime, drugs and rapists and maybe some good people. Who uses the words "invasion" for immigrants and tweeted about "breeding" in sanctuary cities. Who repeatedly retweets known right-wing extremists like those from #White genocide (75 retweets), including a fake video of immigrants beating up a crippled kid. Who said there were good people marching alongside Nazis and supremacists. Who called african countries shitholes, suggested all Haitians have AIDS and asked for more Norwegian immigrants instead. Who told four congresswomen of color to go back where they came from. Who seriously suggested to deal with muslims how some general allegedly handled them - by dipping bullets in pig blood before shooting them. Who alleged thousands of thousands of muslims were celebrating the 9/11 attacks in New Jersey. Who falsely accuses five black teenagers of murder even after being cleared. Who gets endorsed by David Duke and doesn't seem to mind. Who claims 81% of murders of white people are committed by blacks and that there are places in the inner cities where you get shot when walking down the streets. Who pardoned Joe Arpaio. Who demanded the conspiracy of mass murder of white farmers in South Africa is investigated. Who has a history of refusing black tenants, telling his black employees in his casino to go to the back and who once said "laziness is a trait in blacks, it's not anything they can control".

And yet you wonder how Trump is seen as racist?

I think he knows about all that. He is just saying that, except for one case, it is "twisting" Trump's words to call all that racist. (Perhaps he is thinking, e.g.,"No one says 'racist' when we call five white men accused of murder 'murderers'; so why is Trump racist to call five black men accused of murder 'murderers,' even after DNA has cleared them?") If I understand Philhos, Trump saying blacks are naturally lazy or tweeting an ugly picture of Ted Cruz' wife would be "godawful stupid" but not racism or misogyny.

If I follow his argument over several posts, the deciding factor in his judgment is that "Every single Republican candidate" is accused of racism since Dole.
 
He may be implying that the motive for calling Trump racist is not what Trump does or says, but just Trump hate. Or Republican hate. It's just what liberals do. "Liberalness"  or something. It would be the same if Trump had not demanded an investigation into the mass murder of whites in SA or removed black employees from public sight in his Casinos or mentioned the "good people" marching with White Supremacists. Liberals just cannot help calling Republicans racist (I am inferring; Phil did not explicitly say that). That is for him the larger issue.

He is right when he says that " liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe."  He could easily compile examples of them doing that as long as your list of Trump examples of racism and misogyny.   He just seems to be disputing any significant correlation between Trump's actual behavior and liberal judgements about it. The responsibility/accountability is all on "the liberals" here, not on Trump.

A liberal who says it is "universally agreed" that Trump is a racist, misogynist, and Xenophobe would be dead wrong, however, since most of his supporters do not agree. Or if they do, tolerate or even celebrate his behavior.

[*Nately120*]

(08-08-2019, 06:29 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Pretty much. 

Aside from the refusing to rent to black tenants, none of what you posted is Trump being racist. Every single thing you posted has either been twisted to make something Trump said seem racist or it's been a criticism Trump levied towards a person(s) of color and, of course, he was critical because he was racist.

Ever since I started getting involved in politics (during the Bob Dole-Bill Clinton presidential race) EVERY SINGLE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF BEING RACIST. Even many of the candidates in the PRIMARIES.

Trump has no filter and has said some God-awful stupid things, but it's amazing to me how so many liberals talks as if it's universally agreed that Trump is a racist, misogynistic xenophobe. 

Well, the general public likes their nice and easy snapshots of the candidates.  If a guy is a republican he's a racist and will send your kids to war so his kids can have more money, and if he's a democrat he is going to give your money to poor and lazy people and leave us vulnerable to attacks due to his ultra wimpiness. 

[hollodero]

(08-09-2019, 02:55 PM)Dill Wrote: A liberal who says it is "universally agreed" that Trump is a racist, misogynist, and Xenophobe would be dead wrong, however, since most of his supporters do not agree. Or if they do, tolerate or even celebrate his behavior.

Agreeing is one thing. I don't demand people agree with my picture of Trump. But additionally calling all accusations of racism or misogyny some kind of liberal media campaign and more or less a cheap smear is another thing. One I take more issue with.

There's obviously some factual reasons to assume Trump might harbor racist or misogynistic notions. Agree or not, but I feel it needs to be accepted that there's enough data points to at least see the dispassionate validity of the point people are coming from when accusing Trump of racism.

I don't like the silent assumption that because I think Trump is pretty much a racist, I have to be biased or pro-dems or follow a liberal playbook against the political enemy or am pumped up by media exaggerations. It's about none of these things.

[Dill]

(08-09-2019, 04:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: Agreeing is one thing. I don't demand people agree with my picture of Trump. But additionally calling all accusations of racism or misogyny some kind of liberal media campaign and more or less a cheap smear is another thing. One I take more issue with.

There's obviously some factual reasons to assume Trump might harbor racist or misogynistic notions. Agree or not, but I feel it needs to be accepted that there's enough data points to at least see the dispassionate validity of the point people are coming from when accusing Trump of racism.

I don't like the silent assumption that because I think Trump is pretty much a racist, I have to be biased or pro-dems or follow a liberal playbook against the political enemy or am pumped up by media exaggerations. It's about none of these things.

Well I agree with what you say here.  Would just add that "acceptance" is the obstacle that really characterizes the current conjuncture in US politics. Tens of millions do not "accept" that there are enough data points, etc.

For them the liberal playbook and media exaggeration are still far and away the greater problem. Greater even than continued external threats to US elections. So "liberalness" still explains the loud daily complaints about Trump's behavior more so than Trump's daily behavior.

To maintain that the liberal playbook and media exaggeration are the greater problem, one must insist that bragging of grabbing P is not really misogynist, anymore than claiming a rape accuser is obviously lying because she is too ugly to rape. (We've ALL used that defense at some point, right H? )

I.e., Trump criticism has to be disconnected from Trump's actual public behavior and connected to a liberal media agenda to make liberals the "real cause" of all that bad press. That is why they are currently reporting about shooting victims in the El Paso hospital who refuse to see Trump--to make Trump look bad.

You and I are astonished the US has a president sunk to such unheard of depths, but others are livid at the media mistreatment of Trump, though they admit he "sometimes" says "stupid" things they would have phrased differently. Liberals take that "stupid" phrasing and twist it to look like he means what he says, which is what he cannot possibly mean, no matter how often he says it and how often it looks like what he means.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-09-2019, 02:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well, the general public likes their nice and easy snapshots of the candidates.  If a guy is a republican he's a racist and will send your kids to war so his kids can have more money, and if he's a democrat he is going to give your money to poor and lazy people and leave us vulnerable to attacks due to his ultra wimpiness. 

That's an interesting one because I think it's still believed, but I wonder if it's true anymore. Both sides now have their abundance of warhawks.

At the risk of "but Obama"-ing, he sent the US military into Yemen, Libya, Pakistan, Uganda, Syria, Jordan and Turkey (because of Syria), did drone strikes in Somalia, ships in the Straight of Hormuz, and did a 30,000 troop surge in Afghanistan.

The Right/Left line on military use has kind of been blurred. Hillary Clinton's line of "we came, we saw, he died" on the US intervention in Libya is a pretty indisputable bit. Lol


- - - - - - - - - -

All that said, John Bolton is a whole different category. If anyone is going to drag the US into a full fledged war with another country, it's going to be Bolton. Wouldn't mind at all if he was no longer in any kind of position of power.

[Dill]

(08-09-2019, 05:26 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That's an interesting one because I think it's still believed, but I wonder if it's true anymore. Both sides now have their abundance of warhawks.

At the risk of "but Obama"-ing, he sent the US military into Yemen, Libya, Pakistan, Uganda, Syria, Jordan and Turkey (because of Syria), did drone strikes in Somalia, ships in the Straight of Hormuz, and did a 30,000 troop surge in Afghanistan.

The Right/Left line on military use has kind of been blurred. Hillary Clinton's line of "we came, we saw, he died" on the US intervention in Libya is a pretty indisputable bit. Lol
- - - - - - - - - -

All that said, John Bolton is a whole different category. If anyone is going to drag the US into a full fledged war with another country, it's going to be Bolton. Wouldn't mind at all if he was no longer in any kind of position of power.

Agree with most of this, especially the Obama, Hillary Bolton parts. 

Would only hedge that Dems may still have more peaceniks--Sanders, Warren, Williamson for example.