Trump supporters don't want to talk about Trump

[GMDino]

(05-14-2018, 03:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: "Some dude", LOL.    You're killing it in this thread btw.


No, they really don't.  Trump is not a traditional POTUS, he's going to say ridiculous crap.  This is not new, he's been doing it for years, did it during the campaign and will continue to do it.  Very few people approve of it, but not pulling our hair out every time it happens appears to be evidence of tacit approval by some.  Constant consternation over something that won't change seems like a waste of energy and emotion to me.

What about just pointing out every time he lies?

Because as the POTUS that seems like something we should be doing when we have a President that is "not a traditional POTUS" and he shares provable lies almost daily either bia twitter or his speeches.

[Belsnickel]

(05-14-2018, 04:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: What about just pointing out every time he lies?

Because as the POTUS that seems like something we should be doing when we have a President that is "not a traditional POTUS" and he shares provable lies almost daily either bia twitter or his speeches.

We have spent decades accepting the fact that politicians lie to us on a regular basis. That got us here. Trump is only different in that he lies about stupid shit instead of just the really important things. I think calling out lies is fine, but there are sites and organizations that do that sort of thing, already.

[GMDino]

(05-14-2018, 04:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We have spent decades accepting the fact that politicians lie to us on a regular basis. That got us here. Trump is only different in that he lies about stupid shit instead of just the really important things. I think calling out lies is fine, but there are sites and organizations that do that sort of thing, already.

So we aren't suppose to do it too?  Or to share it?

Because I see most his lies as about important stuff.  Maybe the self gratitude for the raises is stupid shit?  I suppose on the scale of tstuff he lies about it's small potatoes...I personally feel it should be shared.

This isn't him claiming to be a billionaire stuff.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 03:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   Very few people approve of it, but not pulling our hair out every time it happens appears to be evidence of tacit approval by some. 

It is approval.  Trump even mocked you all when he said he could shoot a man and his followers would not care.  He was basically calling you all a bunch of rubes who would never question anything he says, and you prove him correct over and over again.

When someone lies to your face and you don't say anything that means you don't care.

[Dill]

(05-14-2018, 12:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Luckily my friends have a thicker skin and are willing to discuss individual topics without hurt feelings.

But your response just shows my general experience online is true: Trump fans don't want to talk about him at all.  In some cases t seems it's because someone might disagree and they will feel "shame".

At least on this board there is some back and forth worth discussing.

I would say that some Trump fans do want to "talk" about him--but not in forums where what they say will be contested, and not really about policy.  I don't believe I have yet encountered a real Trump supporter who was a policy wonk.  The little they have to say about policy beyond repeats WH/Fox talking points. And when those are blown up there is (with one exception in this forum) silence.

If you follow the comments on Daily Wire and Breitbart articles you will see there is lots of talk and support--even for the craziest tweets and most random decisions, not to mention the most vile ad hominem.

A forum like this presents great difficulties for that sort discourse:

1) people get suspended or banned for calling people names. And

2) there is plenty of space and opportunity to challenge Trump policy/behavior on factual and logical grounds, and people ready to do it. 

Most of the people who defend Trump on this forum see themselves as attacking Democrat/Liberal policies rather than defending Trump.

So they are in a bind. "Whatabout Clinton" and calling out "hypocrisy" doesn't get them very far, as no previous AMERICAN politician in history compares to Trump  And some defenders are not people who themselves condone childish name calling, so they are uncomfortable running interference for someone who does that from the highest, most traditionally revered office in the land.  Just a very difficult position for anyone claiming to espouse conservative values, and remembers what those are.

Not a very good situation for all of us, really, since even oblique defenses tend to normalize undisciplined, dangerous, even pathological behavior, extending his time in office.

[Belsnickel]

(05-14-2018, 04:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: So we aren't suppose to do it too?  Or to share it?

Because I see most his lies as about important stuff.  Maybe the self gratitude for the raises is stupid shit?  I suppose on the scale of tstuff he lies about it's small potatoes...I personally feel it should be shared.

This isn't him claiming to be a billionaire stuff.

I just feel like if we are constantly focusing on the lies that come out of the administration then we are missing the forest for the trees.

[GMDino]

(05-14-2018, 04:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I just feel like if we are constantly focusing on the lies that come out of the administration then we are missing the forest for the trees.

See I see it as both.

Every lie just reinforces to his supporters that he is right and everyone else is "fake news".

Anyone who can be educated should be educated.

Maybe no one will acknowledge it...maybe they will.

As was said, Trump is "not a traditional POTUS" and he may need handled in not a traditional way.

[GMDino]

(05-14-2018, 04:13 PM)Dill Wrote: I would say that some Trump fans do want to "talk" about him--but not in forums where what they say will be contested, and not really about policy.  I don't believe I have yet encountered a real Trump supporter who was a policy wonk.  The little they have to say about policy beyond repeats WH/Fox talking points. And when those are blown up there is (with one exception in this forum) silence.

If you follow the comments on Daily Wire and Breitbart articles you will see there is lots of talk and support--even for the craziest tweets and most random decisions, not to mention the most vile ad hominem.

A forum like this presents great difficulties for that sort discourse:

1) people get suspended or banned for calling people names. And

2) there is plenty of space and opportunity to challenge Trump policy/behavior on factual and logical grounds, and people ready to do it. 

Most of the people who defend Trump on this forum see themselves as attacking Democrat/Liberal policies rather than defending Trump.

So they are in a bind. "Whatabout Clinton" and calling out "hypocrisy" doesn't get them very far, as no previous AMERICAN politician in history compares to Trump  And some defenders are not people who themselves condone childish name calling, so they are uncomfortable running interference for someone who does that from the highest, most traditionally revered office in the land.  Just a very difficult position for anyone claiming to espouse conservative values, and remembers what those are.

Not a very good situation for all of us, really, since even oblique defenses tend to normalize undisciplined, dangerous, even pathological behavior, extending his time in office.

Another thing I thought of is as we only know what each other does HERE it is difficult to escape the opinion that that is ALL we do.  

A lot of my online posts is pointing out Trump fallacies and follies...but there are so many to pick from!  It's not the only thing I do though.  

[Belsnickel]

(05-14-2018, 04:31 PM)GMDino Wrote: See I see it as both.

Every lie just reinforces to his supporters that he is right and everyone else is "fake news".

Anyone who can be educated should be educated.

Maybe no one will acknowledge it...maybe they will.

As was said, Trump is "not a traditional POTUS" and he may need handled in not a traditional way.

So I agree that everyone should be educated, and I agree that he may need handled in a less traditional way. This is why we need to rethink our approach to combating his message.We need to understand that what we have been doing may not be working the way we like to think it is. We need to examine other avenues to get our points across. There are going to be people that will never change their minds, but that's not who we need to be talking to. The people we need to be talking to, we're approaching it wrong. At least, I hope we're just approaching it wrong. 
[url=https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds][/url]

[Dill]

(05-14-2018, 04:07 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We have spent decades accepting the fact that politicians lie to us on a regular basis. That got us here. Trump is only different in that he lies about stupid shit instead of just the really important things. I think calling out lies is fine, but there are sites and organizations that do that sort of thing, already.

I don't think we have spent decades "accepting" the fact that politicians lie to us on a regular basis.  "Lie" is itself a very politicized, spun up term nowadays. Bush I lost an election because circumstances forced him to raise taxes. And so he became a "liar."  But most Reagan voters didn't call Reagan a liar when he did the same thing 8 years before. 

And Hillary lost an election because she was successfully portrayed as a liar--in part by the ultimate liar.

Politicians who tell the truth have a very hard time getting elected. So I am not going to blame Trump on "the politicians." The increasingly bad judgment of voters got us Trump, most of whom had swallowed a mountain of lies about immigration, climate change, "the Clintons," Muslims, foreign policy, the economy, and Obama's origins which saturated the right-wing media sphere well before Trump announced he was running. Few of those lies originated with politicians.

Trump does not just lie about stupid shit, like how many people attended his inauguration. And some stupid shit isn't really stupid shit, like whether he had an affair with a porn star and paid her off, via a mob-style "fixer," with money from a fund into which a Russian oligarch had paid hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Or like whether Obama was born in Kenya and Mexico sends us "rapists."

Rather, he most always lies about the really important things--US murder rates are the highest they have ever been; we're the highest taxed nation in the world; the Iran Deal freed Iran to make a bomb in 7 years; there was no collusion with Russia.  

And all these lies--stupid, not really, and important--fog our political discourse and hamper accountability. A recent CNN poll showed that 63% of Americans wanted to stay in the Iran deal, but as Juan Williams recently pointed out, the same poll showed that 62% erroneously believed that Iran, not the US, had violated the deal. http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/387468-juan-williams-trumps-dangerous-lies-on-iran. Worst of all, almost a third of the electorate believe some "deep state" is responsible for the current chaos in the White House--not any deficiency in Trump's personnel or policy choices.

"Calling out" Trump lies in this forum, where it is clear that Trump supporters are unfamiliar with "sites and organizations that do that sort of thing already," is a kind of public service.  

For me the issue is not about "changing Trump" or flying into a rage about every lie when no one can keep up. It is about assessing which are most harmful and their consequences, and about contesting the normalization of bad judgment and bad behavior, and about restoring accountability--with regard to voters as well as politicians.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-14-2018, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is approval.

No, it's not.

 

Quote:Trump even mocked you all when he said he could shoot a man and his followers would not care.  He was basically calling you all a bunch of rubes who would never question anything he says, and you prove him correct over and over again.

Who is "you all"?

Quote:When someone lies to your face and you don't say anything that means you don't care.

A tweet is not to "your face".  But you are correct, I don't care and I've said this numerous times.  I don't care what Trump says, I care what he actually does.  If you want to be in a permanent state of angina by obsessing over every inane tweet please feel free.  Just don't judge me for my lack of masochistic tendencies.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 05:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Who is "you all"?

People who do not care if the President of their own country lies to them consistently.

Now look around at the company you have on this issue and you will know exactly who I mean by "you all".  The same exact people Trump was talking about when he said "They would not care if I shot a man in the middle of the street."

[GMDino]

(05-14-2018, 05:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it's not.

 

Who is "you all"?


A tweet is not to "your face".  But you are correct, I don't care and I've said this numerous times.  I don't care what Trump says, I care what he actually does.  If you want to be in a permanent state of angina by obsessing over every inane tweet please feel free.  Just don't judge me for my lack of masochistic tendencies.

What he "does" is lie.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-14-2018, 06:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who do not care if the President of their own country lies to them consistently.

Now look around at the company you have on this issue and you will know exactly who I mean by "you all".  The same exact people Trump was talking about when he said "They would not care if I shot a man in the middle of the street."

I do think Trump shooting someone would fall under the "what Trump does" category though, which I have already expressed is what actually concerns me.  But do keep up the lame attempts to pigeonhole others.

(05-14-2018, 06:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: What he "does" is lie.  

Actions not words GM, not a hard concept to grasp.  Remember when you wanted me to get all upset because Trump was going to enact gun control.  My response was that I'll get upset when he actually tries to do it rather than just talk about it.  Guess I made the right call.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 06:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I do think Trump shooting someone would fall under the "what Trump does" category though, which I have already expressed is what actually concerns me.  But do keep up the lame attempts to pigeonhole others.

What Trump "does" with his lies is attempt to shape public opinion and enact policy.  

Lying is "doing" something.  You can even be arrested for it.  It is clearly an action.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 06:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  My response was that I'll get upset when he actually tries to do it rather than just talk about it.

Your head explodes whenever anyone says anything you believe is a lie about guns and/or gun regulations.

Except Trump.

Gee I wonder why?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-14-2018, 06:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your head explodes whenever anyone says anything you believe is a lie about guns and/or gun regulations.

No, it really doesn't. 

Quote:Except Trump.

Because, as Matt said, he lies about stupid crap.  Name me one major policy issue that he has lied about (not that you just disagree with) and we'll address it. 

Quote:Gee I wonder why?

Since I've already said why I wonder why you have to wonder.

[Luvnit2]

(05-14-2018, 06:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: What he "does" is lie.  

They all lie. Obama was the worst as his lies actually impacted hundreds of millions of people financially and their heallth with 2 biggest whoppers of all time with direct realationship tp getting American approval of Obama Care:

1. If you want to keep your doctor, you will keep your doctor.
2. A family will save $2500 per year with Obama Care.

The saddest part is he knew it was a lie as the architect of Obama Care told us (admitted) by the time the morons figure out the middle class are paying for it, they will have no chance to repeal it.

But, hey let's focus on if Hillary knew about a payment to some adult film star which has zero impact on someone else's life. 

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 07:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because, as Matt said, he lies about stupid crap.  Name me one major policy issue that he has lied about (not that you just disagree with) and we'll address it.  

His entire "build the wall" platform was based on lies about Mexican immigrants being bad people sent by the Mexican government.

"The Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning. They send the bad ones over because they don't want to pay for them. They don't want to take care of them,"

"When Mexico sends it people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you (pointing at audience). They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists."

"the worst elements in Mexico are being pushed into the United States by the Mexican government."

"Likewise, tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border." 

[i]“What can be simpler or more accurately stated? The Mexican Government is forcing their most unwanted people into the United States. They are, in many cases, criminals, drug dealers, rapists, etc[i].” [/i][/i]

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-14-2018, 10:47 AM)GMDino Wrote: It's cult like.

(05-14-2018, 11:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm not sure who is being "shamed" around here?

Just throwing this out here..... Maybe, just maybe, there's a reason people don't want to talk to you about things your spend your entire day, every day, obsessing over hating.