Trump to become first president to speak at anti-LGBT hate group's summit

[BmorePat87]

(10-13-2017, 08:02 PM)Vlad Wrote: So then Islam is a hate group as well....I can go along with that.

If Islam as a whole is lobbying for this, sure. 

[BmorePat87]

(10-13-2017, 03:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: A religious group advocating isn't discrimination.  They are allowed to speak freely and advocate as they feel.   Just as we are allowed to dismiss them if west choose.

The fact that they defend their discrimination as a religious view doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

They have every right to say they want people to be discriminated against and I never said they didn't, I just called it hate. 


But how does calling for bans on same sex marriage advocate for Christians?

[BmorePat87]

(10-13-2017, 03:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll explain.  The left rightfully rails against discrimination coming from the religious right, which in this country is generally Christian based faiths.  However, at the exact same time they turn a blind eye, or at least temper their outrage, to similar offenses perpetrated by Islamic faith adherents.  Do you recall the female genital mutilation case in Minnesota?  Was there an enormous outrage over this?  You even had people arguing that it's part of the culture.



So, then the catholic church is a hate group.  I have no problems with labels as long as they are applied equally to anyone who fits the criteria.


We agree 100%.  Sadly, many do not share this level of consistency.  Religious based reasons for hateful activity are no more justifiable than secular ones.

I'd label any Catholic group lobbying for the same things and using the same language a "hate group". 

As far as the religion itself, many have some hateful views. I'm happy to apply them evenly. For some reason, others, as you noted, excuse hate when it is justified as a religious view. 

[Dill]

(10-13-2017, 08:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well. I wouldn't argue too much about "leftist" outlets being quite partisan and maybe following questionable ideologies, but as long as there is FOX news and Breitbart I feel complaining about HuffPo is a bit of a one-sided view. You mentioned the "enemy of my enemy"-perspective, and while there might be truth to that (I honestly do not know), it's also exactly how I feel the conservative (or "right") spectrum treats the alt-right movement. One difference being, again, that Islam is not an influential political movement, and claims stating otherwise are blowing thngs out of proportion.
With Linda Sansour, I'm going on a limb here and claim this person just isn't that important to begin with. It's tough to demand condemnation of just every creature claiming to be on a certain side. This looks like a Kathy Griffin situation, a situation where I just can say of course it was wrong what this person did, but it's only this person and trying to paint her wrongdoing as the left's wrongdoing is unfair, just as it would be unfair to associate white supremacist's wrongdoing with the political right. While this analogy is flawed, I guess the logic behing it can maybe be accepted.

"Blowing things out of proportion" is not an accident.

The "alliance" between those they term "leftists" and the Fox-Geller version of Islam has been a staple of the US rightwing media since 9/11,* when many Americans (including Bush) refused wholesale condemnation of a world religion for what some of its followers had done.  "Leftists" (as social liberals are called in the US) attack religious bigotry in the US but are assumed to be "silent" about misogyny in Islam because they hate the US and love its enemies. (Islam, a religion, is an enemy like a foreign state with a foreign policy in this world view. And rightists are suddenly leftists or liberals when it comes to women's rights in other countries.)  The less you know about history and foreign policy, "leftism" and Islam, the clearer the so-called alliance becomes. 

Disinformation drives Islamophobia in the US. Believe it or not, some US states, like Oklahoma, have passed laws banning Sharia, though Oklahoma's was overturned in federal court. The anti-sharia groups are still at it though, working 24/7 to prevent the immanent Muslim takeover. http://bansharialaw.com/oklahoma/  Every Sunday throughout the Bible belt, thousands of ministers address millions of followers on subjects like stealth sharia, the worldwide persecution of Christians, and how the Obama deep state is preventing Trump from restoring Christianity to its central place in US government and culture and Israel to its central place in foreign policy. (Southern Baptists alone have more than 15 million members--double the population of Austria.)

I think one key to understanding this right wing world view and the associative logic whereby it brings "enemies" together as friends might be its rejection of Enlightenment ideals of universal humanity and human rights in favor of ethnic/religious/national identities--tribalism, but in a world dominated by social media and saturated with images and sound bites of global consumer capitalism.  If you defend Their humanity and rights, that is siding with Them against your own people. (No danger of Trump doing that! Hence this group forms his base.)  You become "anti-American" for defending common humanity, and a true American if you persecute others in the name of religion--yours in some cases, theirs in others.

Americans aren't the only ones who do this, of course.  One sees now in Europe as well as the US how respect for common human rights as the ground for political legitimacy is being displaced by appeals to "civilization"--not as a universal, desirable state of civility and law beyond barbarity, but as something particular--Western Civilization--wielded the way people used to appeal to ethnic and religious nationalism to define the Other. In the Middle East, Israeli Jews who defend Palestinian rights are called self-hating Jews and traitors by right wing Israelis. In predominately Muslim countries one sees the same, anti-modern tendency--much more understandable in countries where liberal politics never much presence in the culture and history. Their rightists and conservatives are also angry about (real) leftists and liberals who ally themselves with "the West" and Christians by harping about universal human rights, including those of women.


*See for example Dinesh d'sousa's The Enemy at Home: The Cultural Left and Its Responsibility for 9/11 (2007). This book has an entire chapter explaining the lefist-Islamist alliance.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-16-2017, 12:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'd label any Catholic group lobbying for the same things and using the same language a "hate group". 

As far as the religion itself, many have some hateful views. I'm happy to apply them evenly. For some reason, others, as you noted, excuse hate when it is justified as a religious view. 

So you want to throw the Catholic Church in the same category as the KKK?

When you do this you give actual hate groups a pass. Just because someone disagrees with your notions doesn't automatically make them a hate group. Stop trying to be so quick to label people so you virtue signal.

All you do is allow actual hate groups room to breath because no one takes you seriously.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2017, 06:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So you want to throw the Catholic Church in the same category as the KKK?

When you do this you give actual hate groups a pass. Just because someone disagrees with your notions doesn't automatically make them a hate group. Stop trying to be so quick to label people so you virtue signal.

All you do is allow actual hate groups room to breath because no one takes you seriously.

When you give white nationalists a pass you allow hate room to breath.

[MrRager]

(10-16-2017, 06:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So you want to throw the Catholic Church in the same category as the KKK?  

When you do this you give actual hate groups a pass.   Just because someone disagrees with your notions doesn't automatically make them a hate group.   Stop trying to be so quick to label people so you virtue signal.  

All you do is allow actual hate groups room to breath because no one takes you seriously.

I don't think he is calling them a hate group because they disagree with him. I think, and I'm not Pat so I could be wrong, that he is calling him a hate group because they advocate for less rights for a specific group compared to the rest of the population.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2017, 07:18 PM)MrRager Wrote: I don't think he is calling them a hate group because they disagree with him. I think, and I'm not Pat so I could be wrong, that he is calling him a hate group because they advocate for less rights for a specific group compared to the rest of the population.

I'm not Pat either (he wishes); however, I think he is calling them a hate group because he disagrees with them. 

[Benton]

(10-16-2017, 06:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So you want to throw the Catholic Church in the same category as the KKK?  
 

In regard to civil rights for homosexuals, muslims, the KKK and the Catholic Church are all on the same side.

That's not putting anyone in the same category. But if I was Catholic, I'd certainly look at the other groups sharing the ideas of using the legal system and attempts to influence beliefs in an effort to ostracize a group.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-16-2017, 08:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not Pat either (he wishes); however, I think he is calling them a hate group because he disagrees with them. 

This is exactly what he is doing.

[BmorePat87]

(10-16-2017, 06:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So you want to throw the Catholic Church in the same category as the KKK?  

When you do this you give actual hate groups a pass.   Just because someone disagrees with your notions doesn't automatically make them a hate group.   Stop trying to be so quick to label people so you virtue signal.  

All you do is allow actual hate groups room to breath because no one takes you seriously.

Not going to ever explain how calling for legal discrimination against gay people "advocates" for Christians, are you?

[Vlad]

(10-16-2017, 08:42 PM)Benton Wrote: In regard to civil rights for homosexuals, muslims, the KKK and the Catholic Church are all on the same side.

 That is utterly ridiculous. Do I really have to explain?

[BmorePat87]

(10-13-2017, 12:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A group that lobbies government officials to legalize discrimination against a class of people and calls them detrimental to society on the basis of their gender, orientation, race, or any similar factor is a hate group. Discrimination is hostility towards a group.

Since some people can't read

[GMDino]

(10-16-2017, 12:49 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The fact that they defend their discrimination as a religious view doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

They have every right to say they want people to be discriminated against and I never said they didn't, I just called it hate. 

This falls in with the trend of say the "left is intolerant" because they don't like other group's point of view.  As if being intolerant of avowed Nazis and proclaimed racists is BAD (or equal to the Nazis and racists) because the left opposes those views.

Its a mad world.

[BmorePat87]

(10-16-2017, 11:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: This falls in with the trend of say the "left is intolerant" because they don't like other group's point of view.  As if being intolerant of avowed Nazis and proclaimed racists is BAD (or equal to the Nazis and racists) because the left opposes those views.

Its a mad world.

"If you don't tolerate intolerance then you are intolerant". 

[Vlad]

(10-16-2017, 11:20 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Not going to ever explain how calling for legal discrimination against gay people "advocates" for Christians, are you?

What specifically is this discrimination you speak of?

[BmorePat87]

(10-16-2017, 11:27 PM)Vlad Wrote: What specifically is this discrimination you speak of?

Attempts to ban gay marriage/ overturn Obergefell v Hodges

Opposition to covering sexual orientation and/or gender identity under various federal and state anti-discrimination legislation

Opposition to same sex couples adopting

Opposition to workplace protection for the LGBT community

Just some of the things that have come up in recent years.

[BmorePat87]

I find it funny that people are defending a group that spent tens of thousands of dollars to lobby against a bill decrying Uganda's attempts to impose life in prison and the death penalty on people arrested for being gay or engaging in same sex sexual acts.

They said it was upholding morality in Uganda...

[StLucieBengal]

(10-16-2017, 08:42 PM)Benton Wrote: In regard to civil rights for homosexuals, muslims, the KKK and the Catholic Church are all on the same side.

That's not putting anyone in the same category. But if I was Catholic, I'd certainly look at the other groups sharing the ideas of using the legal system and attempts to influence beliefs in an effort to ostracize a group.

Gays have the same rights as you or I.

Blacks were afforded additional because of a legacy of slavery. Gays, immigrants, women, etc do not need the same additional protections as blacks.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-16-2017, 11:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Attempts to ban gay marriage/ overturn Obergefell v Hodges

Opposition to covering sexual orientation and/or gender identity under various federal and state anti-discrimination legislation

Opposition to same sex couples adopting

Opposition to workplace protection for the LGBT community

Just some of the things that have come up in recent years.

None of these need additional protections.

1. There should be zero government marriage. A non government marriage means anyone can marry who they wish.

2. They are afforded protections of any mentally unstable person. They can claim disabilities protections.

3. Gays are allowed to adopt. No threat to that ending.

4. Gays don’t need workplace protections either. We live in a day and time where we can all find a new job if we choose. They can protect themselves by finding a better paying job.