Trump, where do you stand on him now?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-13-2020, 08:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: I know, I know...another Trump thread. 

But I'm just curious about something (lots of things but one thing this time):


For four years we've had people here strongly defending Trump, people who strongly disliked Trump, and people who said they didn't like Trump but only defended him because others didn't like him.  

At one point it was suggested to me to try and understand why his supporters did what they did and said what they said rather than challenge them because challenging them just made them more hardcore in their defense of Trump.

So how are you all feeling now?  Watching how he is acting after losing both the popular vote and the EC and continuing to post that he really won, that it is all a conspiracy?  The baseless lawsuits?

Are you still willing to defend him as a person let a lone as as President?

He never "grew into the job".
His "different" ways of handling things never translated to political success.
He never drained the swamp.  In fact he filled it with his own special swamp creatures.
He never ran the country like a business other than to spend wildly, steal money from one department to fund another (failing) one and drive up debt.

What did he do that you thought he would that was worth all that time defending him?

The Supreme Court?

Congrats.  You sold your souls for a couple court cases that then might get changed back later.

A tax cut?  Unless you're in the top 10% you will see your taxes slowly rise moving forward as the "middle class" part was only temporary.

Four years ago everyone knew what and who Trump was.  Some of you hitch your wagon to him and whipped that horse like it going to take you to the promised land.  Instead you barely got out of the gate and now the horse is crapping all around you and demanding you celebrate it.

He was destined to embarrass himself and he did. 

Every day since the election was called is just worse and worse.  In both what he say and what he does.

I feel bad that people were so snookered.  I don't feel bad for the people who knew but supported him anyway for couple pieces of silver in the form of three SCJ and a temporary tax break at the expense of our standing in the world and the slow erosion of the norms that make out country run.

Most of what he did can be fixed.  But I fear the people who didn't care for four years will make the same choices again in the future because they haven't learned anything.

Just my two cents.

After reading that, there really is nothing to say, you've already told us all how we feel... 


Why can't you just leave it at the basic question and leave your bias out of it? There is no point in answering, your objective is crystal clear.

[GMDino]

(11-18-2020, 05:50 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: After reading that, there really is nothing to say, you've already told us all how we feel... 


Why can't you just leave it at the basic question and leave your bias out of it? There is no point in answering, your objective is crystal clear.

Thanks for reading.

To answer you question because this is a forum where I can post what I think of the POTUS and then ask if anyone has a counter point.  Hopefully a counterpoint that has some meat behind it but I'd settle for honesty about what they think of Trump now.

My "objective" was to post what I think and see if anyone who had previously and/or currently was standing behind Trump would admit that or explain it.

So fair it has not happened.

Edit: One person did answer that Trump will still win the election so I assume they still support him and one person admitted anything Trump did was better than having Clinton in office. So kudos to them.

[hollodero]

(11-18-2020, 05:50 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: After reading that, there really is nothing to say, you've already told us all how we feel... 


Why can't you just leave it at the basic question and leave your bias out of it? There is no point in answering, your objective is crystal clear.

I would want to know though, so there'd be that point in answering the question as asked. I promise I would not follow up in any way, but I'd be curious about your viewpoint.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-18-2020, 10:17 AM)hollodero Wrote: I would want to know though, so there'd be that point in answering the question as asked. I promise I would not follow up in any way, but I'd be curious about your viewpoint.

You're not going to get an answer.  If an actual Trump supporter gave their honest opinion on this subject then the usual suspects would berate and belittle them, calling them a racist, fascist misogynist.  They'd be called credulous, stupid and uneducated.  One need look no further than the OP to see proof of this.

[GMDino]

(11-18-2020, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not going to get an answer.  If an actual Trump supporter gave their honest opinion on this subject then the usual suspects would berate and belittle them, calling them a racist, fascist misogynist.  They'd be called credulous, stupid and uneducated.  One need look no further than the OP to see proof of this.

Maybe add paranoid?   <--Joke


I asked a question.  One doesn't have to answer but I'd like them to answer.  Perhaps to even to spark a conversation.

For example an "actual Trump supporter" could say if they still support the President tweeting falsehoods and firing people the same way.  Is that something that is okay with them now/still?  Are they just words or do those words have actions behind them such as with the firing.

We've had five years of full throated defense of Trump.  Suddenly it seems very few want to give their "honest opinion" on his behavior.

[*Nately120*]

(11-18-2020, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not going to get an answer.  If an actual Trump supporter gave their honest opinion on this subject then the usual suspects would berate and belittle them, calling them a racist, fascist misogynist.  They'd be called credulous, stupid and uneducated.  One need look no further than the OP to see proof of this.

Depends on what their answer is and how logical it seems.  My brother in law supports Trump but he mentions taxation and other logical stuff before he starts ragging on Biden or Clinton.  There are logical reasons to support a republican over a democrat, but the more Trump caters to his ultra loyal cult the less logical support he's going to get.

There are some posters here who defend Trump in a logical sense, but it never has the zeal of the people who take the guy at his word...so assuming anyone who defends Trump is going to just get dismissed as a nut seems a bit hyperbolic.

[Dill]

(11-18-2020, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not going to get an answer.  If an actual Trump supporter gave their honest opinion on this subject then the usual suspects would berate and belittle them, calling them a racist, fascist misogynist.  They'd be called credulous, stupid and uneducated.  One need look no further than the OP to see proof of this.

The MO of "the usual suspects" isn't really name calling, is it? 

The attraction that Trump has for his supporters has always been a legitimate curiosity, as has the frequent defense of that attraction by non-supporters. Failure to understand the Trump attraction at this point in U.S. history is a failure to understand U.S. politics and society.

So I second Hollo on this point. I'd be happy to hear who has changed his mind, and why, and who hasn't, and why.

What criteria select Trump over Hillary or Biden? Still?

I'd especially like to hear appreciation of his post-election behavior from supporters. What do YOU think is behind the claims of election fraud.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-18-2020, 01:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Maybe add paranoid?   <--Joke


I asked a question.  One doesn't have to answer but I'd like them to answer.  Perhaps to even to spark a conversation.

You'll forgive if I don't believe this at all.

Quote:For example an "actual Trump supporter" could say if they still support the President tweeting falsehoods and firing people the same way.  Is that something that is okay with them now/still?  Are they just words or do those words have actions behind them such as with the firing.

Case in point.

Quote:We've had five years of full throated defense of Trump.  Suddenly it seems very few want to give their "honest opinion" on his behavior.

We have?  I don't recall a lot of "full throated" defense here, which is where you are asking the question.  In case you're wondering why you got no response, just reread this post, it should clear that up for you.

(11-18-2020, 02:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Depends on what their answer is and how logical it seems.  My brother in law supports Trump but he mentions taxation and other logical stuff before he starts ragging on Biden or Clinton.  There are logical reasons to support a republican over a democrat, but the more Trump caters to his ultra loyal cult the less logical support he's going to get.

There are some posters here who defend Trump in a logical sense, but it never has the zeal of the people who take the guy at his word...so assuming anyone who defends Trump is going to just get dismissed as a nut seems a bit hyperbolic.

I've yet to see someone defend Trump on this board who wasn't instantly treated in the way I described.

(11-18-2020, 02:14 PM)Dill Wrote: The MO of "the usual suspects" isn't really name calling, is it?

It absolutely is.  I know you somehow never manage to see it but Hollo has, several times. 

Quote:The attraction that Trump has for his supporters has always been a legitimate curiosity, as has the frequent defense of that attraction by non-supporters. Failure to understand the Trump attraction at this point in U.S. history is a failure to understand U.S. politics and society.

So I second Hollo on this point. I'd be happy to hear who has changed his mind, and why, and who hasn't, and why.

And you won't for reasons I've already explained.  You're certainly not the worst offender in this regard, by a long shot, but your replies tend to veer towards the condescending and don't engender an atmosphere of honest discussion on this topic.

Quote:What criteria select Trump over Hillary or Biden?  Still?

I'd especially like to hear appreciation of his post-election behavior from supporters. What do YOU think is behind the claims of election fraud.

I'm not a Trump supporter and never have been, so I don't know why my opinion is of interest to you given your stated preference.  I've stated many times in many threads why I think he's doing what he's doing.  He wants to create enough doubt so he can leave office claiming he was cheated and never defeated.  I honestly don't think he even wanted a second term, but he damn sure doesn't want to be perceived as having honestly lost.

[Dill]

(11-18-2020, 03:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We have?  I don't recall a lot of "full throated" defense here, which is where you are asking the question.  In case you're wondering why you got no response, just reread this post, it should clear that up for you.

I've yet to see someone defend Trump on this board who wasn't instantly treated in the way I described.

It is difficult to give Trump a "full throated defense," yet Stonyhands, Other Mike, SunsetBengal and others have certainly tried multiple times. And on many different threads with the normal back and forth, no one poster calling any other "fascist" or "racist" or "misogynist." 

I might throw Lucy and Vlad in there too, though they are no longer with us. 

And check out the discussion in threads like this:
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Why-Is-Trump-s-Wall-A-Bad-Thing?page=7&highlight=center+for+immigration

And this: 
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Does-Trump-inspire-hate-from-his-followers?pid=779857&highlight=othermike#pid779857

And this: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Whistle-Blower%E2%80%99s-Complaint-Is-Said-to-Involve-Multiple-Acts-by-Trump?pid=766677&highlight=guatemala#pid766677

And this: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Obama-Shames-Voters?page=6&highlight=misogyny

Civil back and forth going on for pages. I can multiply examples. 

The overall tendency has been to argue against Trump, and Trump supporters, with data, facts, logical, legal and historical arguments. 

(11-18-2020, 03:04 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It absolutely is.  I know you somehow never manage to see it but Hollo has, several times. 

And you won't for reasons I've already explained.  You're certainly not the worst offender in this regard, by a long shot, but your replies tend to veer towards the condescending and don't engender an atmosphere of honest discussion on this topic.

I'm not a Trump supporter and never have been, so I don't know why my opinion is of interest to you given your stated preference.  I've stated many times in many threads why I think he's doing what he's doing.  He wants to create enough doubt so he can leave office claiming he was cheated and never defeated.  I honestly don't think he even wanted a second term, but he damn sure doesn't want to be perceived as having honestly lost.

When it comes to name calling, I am not an "offender" at all. Period. 

"Condescension" again--your vaguest and most mysterious charge against me.  Have I ever responded to any one's post with "TL;DR"? Have I  ever announced that I am "laughing" at other posters or that I find their arguments "amusing"? 

In argument mode, I have been pretty careful to treat posters with respect, which includes defining my terms and re-explaining myself if understood--all of which has drawn condescension towards me from others. In parody mode, I speak as my opponents do, with their language, and with humor.

What doesn't engender honest discussion of a topic is declaring that people will be called "Fascists" or "misogynist" or "racist" if they defend Trump before anyone has even defended Trump, in a forum where that has not really been the case.

There is not a single person in this forum who thinks that you are a Trump supporter.  And yet, no one has run "normalizing" interference for him more frequently than you, as if Trump critics were really the ones who make civil discourse difficult in the US today. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-18-2020, 05:46 PM)Dill Wrote: It is difficult to give Trump a "full throated defense," yet Stonyhands, Other Mike, SunsetBengal and others have certainly tried multiple times. And on many different threads with the normal back and forth, no one poster calling any other "fascist" or "racist" or "misogynist." 

I might throw Lucy and Vlad in there too, though they are no longer with us. 

And check out the discussion in threads like this:
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Why-Is-Trump-s-Wall-A-Bad-Thing?page=7&highlight=center+for+immigration

And this: 
http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Does-Trump-inspire-hate-from-his-followers?pid=779857&highlight=othermike#pid779857

And this: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Whistle-Blower%E2%80%99s-Complaint-Is-Said-to-Involve-Multiple-Acts-by-Trump?pid=766677&highlight=guatemala#pid766677

And this: http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Obama-Shames-Voters?page=6&highlight=misogyny

Civil back and forth going on for pages. I can multiply examples. 

The overall tendency has been to argue against Trump, and Trump supporters, with data, facts, logical, legal and historical arguments.

Maybe in the past, but certainly not of late.  No, I'm not going to pull up a bunch of threads to support this, not because I can't but because I don't care to take the time to do so.  If you choose to view that as my being incapable because they don't exist, that's fine.  

Quote:When it comes to name calling, I am not an "offender" at all. Period. 

I didn't say you name called, although I can see how one would get that from the way my post was worded.

Quote:"Condescension" again--your vaguest and most mysterious charge against me.  Have I ever responded to any one's post with "TL;DR"? Have I  ever announced that I am "laughing" at other posters or that I find their arguments "amusing"? 

It's almost as if you think those are the only two ways to be condescending.  You don't display much self awareness in this regard.

Quote:In argument mode, I have been pretty careful to treat posters with respect, which includes defining my terms and re-explaining myself if understood--all of which has drawn condescension towards me from others. In parody mode, I speak as my opponents do, with their language, and with humor.

Ehh, like I said, you're certainly not the worst offender, but you're clearly not aware of how your posts come off.  I do understand that sometimes text on a screen can be interpreted differently than intended.

Quote:What doesn't engender honest discussion of a topic is declaring that people will be called "Fascists" or "misogynist" or "racist" if they defend Trump before anyone has even defended Trump, in a forum where that has not really been the case.

It's absolutely the case.  One of your buddies throws the racist term out at the drop of a hat.  As I said, Hollo has noticed it, and called it out, on numerous occasions, yet somehow you always miss it.

Quote:There is not a single person in this forum who thinks that you are a Trump supporter.

 
Oh my, that simply isn't true at all.  

Quote:And yet, no one has run "normalizing" interference for him more frequently than you, as if Trump critics were really the ones who make civil discourse difficult in the US today. 

Hahaha, I do love it when people make my point for me.  I dislike hypocrisy and hyperbole, hence my having issues with some of the hot takes on this board from time to time.  I suppose I'm a Trump "normalizer" but not a "supporter"?  I do love when the conversation veers into the semantic.


No need to respond further, I don't see anything being further resolved from this discussion.  You have your position and I have mine.  I suppose we'll wait and see how many Trump supporters respond to this bait thread to see who is correct.

[Goalpost]

I guess I voted for Trump both times because it is my right to vote for him. And I don't think anyone has a right to question me on it. When I walked in the booth there were plenty of signs and people outside. But nobody crossed that boundary from either side looking to convince me at last moment.

[NATI BENGALS]

(11-18-2020, 01:17 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're not going to get an answer.  If an actual Trump supporter gave their honest opinion on this subject then the usual suspects would berate and belittle them, calling them a racist, fascist misogynist.  They'd be called credulous, stupid and uneducated.  One need look no further than the OP to see proof of this.

I remember way back in 2016 when all the libs were crying snowflakes and the right was sick of being told to be politically correct.

Fast forward 4 years... lol. And here we are.

[*Nately120*]

(11-18-2020, 08:48 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I remember way back in 2016 when all the libs were crying snowflakes and the right was sick of being told to be politically correct.

Fast forward 4 years... lol. And here we are.

4 years ago Trump being elected was proof Americans were sick of the PC liberal wimp culture.  In 2020 Trump losing the election is proof of fraud. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-18-2020, 08:48 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I remember way back in 2016 when all the libs were crying snowflakes and the right was sick of being told to be politically correct.

Fast forward 4 years... lol. And here we are.

More politically correct than four years ago?  Not exactly a solid example on your part.

[NATI BENGALS]

(11-18-2020, 11:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: More politically correct than four years ago?  Not exactly a solid example on your part.

I’m sorry. Attempting to overturn the results of an election and telling your army of racists to stand back and stand by in case you don’t like the results of the election isn’t politically correct either. I could go on.

My intent was to hit at the fact they took the politically correct excuse to go full blown jackass. While screaming bloody murder and playing the victim card any time somebody calls them out.

[grampahol]

Like me or not is none of my concern, but I will say that any and all of my acquaintances that still support the moron will never be forgiven.  I do not have "friends" that are so utterly morally bankrupt..period. I may have at one point been friends, but I have ended all association with any and every person I know who still supports such dishonesty or anyone who would even think of looking the other way as a full quarter of a million fellow citizens perished needlessly or consider those who serve their nation to be suckers and losers. No..I will not just move on and maintain these extremely toxic relationships. I am done with anyone still believing a single word coming from his mouth. End of story. 

[GMDino]

(11-18-2020, 11:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: More politically correct than four years ago?  Not exactly a solid example on your part.

No...lol.  

Now the same people who fought against "PC" doesn't want their feeling hurt.  Now they march in the street demanding they get their way no matter what the election results were.  bfine said a couple times that every time the POTUS changes the sides do a 180 on how they act (paraphrasing a bit) and he's mostly right.  It's not all people who do it.  Most elected officials do, for sure, although some are indeed ethical and moral. Where he was wrong was that one side (the right) claims they don't act that way.  They say only the "left" is comprised of "snowflakes" who want participation trophies, etc.  It's simply not true.  They fell into supporting the personality of Trump and when he lost they felt they lost and that just wouldn't stand.  So if he says it was rigged THEY say it was rigged.  And so many are still supporting that.

[hollodero]

(11-19-2020, 09:46 AM)grampahol Wrote: Like me or not is none of my concern, but I will say that any and all of my acquaintances that still support the moron will never be forgiven.  I do not have "friends" that are so utterly morally bankrupt..period. I may have at one point been friends, but I have ended all association with any and every person I know who still supports such dishonesty or anyone who would even think of looking the other way as a full quarter of a million fellow citizens perished needlessly or consider those who serve their nation to be suckers and losers. No..I will not just move on and maintain these extremely toxic relationships. I am done with anyone still believing a single word coming from his mouth. End of story. 

That seems a bit harsh. Seems to me you mistake people voting for Trump with Trump. Not wanting to be friends with Trump, that I can understand. But those that picked him out of two options... I don't know. Politics isn't everyting in life or everything that defines a person. Imho, your friends deserve better that such judgement.

[GMDino]

(11-18-2020, 06:16 PM)Goalpost Wrote: I guess I voted for Trump both times because it is my right to vote for him.  And I don't think anyone has a right to question me on it.  When I walked in the booth there were plenty of signs and people outside.  But nobody crossed that boundary from either side looking to convince me at last moment.

What did you see in the last four years, or what do you NOT see in Biden that made you keep your vote the same?

And how do you feel about Trump's reactions now to losing the election?

[GMDino]

(11-19-2020, 09:46 AM)grampahol Wrote: Like me or not is none of my concern, but I will say that any and all of my acquaintances that still support the moron will never be forgiven.  I do not have "friends" that are so utterly morally bankrupt..period. I may have at one point been friends, but I have ended all association with any and every person I know who still supports such dishonesty or anyone who would even think of looking the other way as a full quarter of a million fellow citizens perished needlessly or consider those who serve their nation to be suckers and losers. No..I will not just move on and maintain these extremely toxic relationships. I am done with anyone still believing a single word coming from his mouth. End of story. 

Oh I know people (family) who have done that to their friends and other members of the family.  I have not.

I muted a few "friends" on social media but I didn't cut anyone out of my life.  Basically because 1) They are not my closest friends so the interactions are fewer and 2) If they are older/closer friends we have so much more in common than politics.  

I draw the line at those who are violent in action or words toward other groups that are not them.  So far I haven't ran into that extreme yet.  Maybe I choose friends well?  I have strictly republican friends who have gay children for example and seem to not agree with the right' policies about them.  More likely the more casual friends hide some of their darker thoughts.