Turkey shooting down Russian planes

[*bfine32*]

What would you the liberals want the US to do if ISIL bombed a US passenger plane killing 100s and then Turkey shot down one of our fighters going to retaliate?

[StLucieBengal]

(11-24-2015, 07:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So who would you guys rather have leading the United States?  Putin or Obama?



This is the main reason that so many people accuse the conservatives of loving Putin.  So many of them claim that Putin is superior to Obama, and that is just ridiculous.  If all you want is violence and abuse of power then why not just go for Hitler?  It takes some real big balls to murder millions of people that you don't like.

Neither. Both are oppressive.

But there is something to say about taking a weak posture in foreign relations. Obama gives red lines and no one cares or respects them. Putin follows through when he says something. He stood for Christians when they were being slaughtered.... When we did not.

Like I said . I can't stand his policies but he carries a strong posture to the world. You can at least respect that...

[Benton]

(11-24-2015, 10:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What would you the liberals want the US to do if ISIL bombed a US passenger plane killing 100s and then Turkey shot down one of our fighters going to retaliate?

dont consider myself a liberal, but Id blame leadership for being in the wrong fracking country.

[Benton]

(11-24-2015, 11:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Neither.   Both are oppressive.    

But there is something to say about taking a weak posture in foreign relations.   Obama gives red lines and no one cares or respects them.   Putin follows through when he says something.   He stood for Christians when they were being slaughtered.... When we did not.    

Like I said .  I can't stand his policies but he carries a strong posture to the world.   You can at least respect that...

eh, you send mixed signals when you say neither, then go on to praise only one.

by the by, Putin lied his butt off in dealing with public relations. That's neither firm nor admirable.

[*bfine32*]

(11-24-2015, 11:45 PM)Benton Wrote: dont consider myself a liberal, but Id blame leadership for being in the wrong fracking country.

Syria is the wrong country?

[fredtoast]

(11-24-2015, 11:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  Putin follows through when he says something.   He stood for Christians when they were being slaughtered.... When we did not.    

Putin has never stood for Christians when they were being slaughtered.

He is supporting Assad for his own political reasons.

You are the king of the rubes if you believe that spin, Lucy.

[BmorePat87]

(11-24-2015, 10:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What would you the liberals want the US to do if ISIL bombed a US passenger plane killing 100s and then Turkey shot down one of our fighters going to retaliate?

I can't speak for them, but I have to ask: In this hypothetical, is Turkey a member of NATO?

[fredtoast]

(11-24-2015, 11:23 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Like I said .  I can't stand his policies but he carries a strong posture to the world.   You can at least respect that...

No I can't.

Like I asked you before, do you admire Michael Browns strong posture when he stole cigars from the comvenience store?  Do you respect the strength Hitler showed by killing millions of Jews?

Anyone who respects a thug and/or a criminal just because he shows strength has serious issues.

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2015, 12:38 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I can't speak for them, but I have to ask: In this hypothetical, is Turkey a member of NATO?

Yes, but as in the past, they have denied us use of their facilities. 

[fredtoast]

(11-24-2015, 10:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What would you the liberals want the US to do if ISIL bombed a US passenger plane killing 100s and then Turkey shot down one of our fighters going to retaliate?

The Russian plan was shot down in Turkish air space.  Are you saying it was going to bomb someone in Turkey as retaliation?

Personally I would retaliate against ISIS if they blew up one of our planes.  But we are already bombing them.

But at least I know what our last republican administration would do.  they would ignore the people that actually blew up our plane and just go invade some other random country.

[fredtoast]

(11-24-2015, 08:46 PM)6andcounting Wrote: I can't choose the lesser of two evils. 

You can't choose between Obama and Putin as America's leader?

Why am i not surprised by this?

Is it safe to say that you and Lucy have "mixed feelings" abut Putin?

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2015, 12:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The Russian plan was shot down in Turkish air space.  Are you saying it was going to bomb someone in Turkey as retaliation?

Personally I would retaliate against ISIS if they blew up one of our planes.  But we are already bombing them.

But at least I know what our last republican administration would do.  they would ignore the people that actually blew up our plane and just go invade some other random country.

There is debate as to whose air space it was in; but it was shot down in Syria and rebels shot at the pilots as they ejected. 

But the question was: What would you do to the country that shot your fighter down?

[Benton]

(11-24-2015, 11:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Syria is the wrong country?

if the question is "where was the plane" then, yes, Syria is the wrong country.

[fredtoast]

(11-25-2015, 12:50 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There is debate as to whose air space it was in; but it was shot down in Syria and rebels shot at the pilots as they ejected. 

But the question was: What would you do to the country that shot your fighter down?

If we were wrong, then nothing.

And that is exactly what Putin is going to do in this case.

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2015, 12:54 AM)Benton Wrote: if the question is "where was the plane" then, yes, Syria is the wrong country.

The plane was shot down in Syria. It was no threat to Turkey. But your response of blame our country is noted. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-25-2015, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If we were wrong, then nothing.

And that is exactly what Putin is going to do in this case.

Honest answer time:

Do you think Turkey thought that plane was a threat to attack them? 

[BmorePat87]

(11-25-2015, 12:46 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, but as in the past, they have denied us use of their facilities. 

Assuming we were in Syrian airspace: I would demand that Turkey formally apologize and make some sort of restitution. Obviously war with a military ally isn't something one wants to rush into, though you would remind Turkey that the rest of NATO has to back the US.

Assuming we were in Turkish airspace it gets more complicated. Did we knowingly ignore their wishes that we not fly in their airspace? If so, isn't that on us? Though, I highly doubt they would shoot down an ally for doing that. I also have to question why we were even in their airspace. Either way, I would probably want the US to demand an apology from Turkey for their actions. It's unacceptable that they would take that kind of action. Even if we mistakenly flew in their airspace, in good faith they should know their strongest ally is not trying to act as an aggressor against them. 

[BmorePat87]

(11-25-2015, 01:07 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Honest answer time:

Do you think Turkey thought that plane was a threat to attack them? 

Absolutely not. They were measuring dicks. I'm assuming Russia, if they were in Turkish airspace, was in it inadvertently. Russia's balls are only big enough to give the "West" the middle finger as they piss in their own backyard and back their allies against a common enemy to the "West". As much as you (not you you) want to criticize Putin for backing Assad, he is still attacking your enemy. Russia isn't ballsy enough to knowingly poke an actual military threat to them.

As you (you you) have suggested, the national guard could take on Russia. I'm not an expert so I'll take your expert word on that.

[Benton]

(11-25-2015, 01:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The plane was shot down in Syria. It was no threat to Turkey. But your response of blame our country is noted. 

Quote:A U.S. official told CNN that a calculation shows the Russian jet was in Turkish airspace for 30 seconds or less. The Turkish government has said that it issued 10 warnings over five minutes but did not say all of those warnings occurred while the jet was in their airspace.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/

Ok, counter question. Since the bull crap is aside (everybody but Russia is saying the plane was in Turkish air space), what would you do if that was a bomber from a historically hostile country advancing in US air space? 

[Benton]

(11-25-2015, 01:18 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Assuming we were in Turkish airspace it gets more complicated. Did we knowingly ignore their wishes that we not fly in their airspace? If so, isn't that on us? Though, I highly doubt they would shoot down an ally for doing that. I also have to question why we were even in their airspace. Either way, I would probably want the US to demand an apology from Turkey for their actions. It's unacceptable that they would take that kind of action. Even if we mistakenly flew in their airspace, in good faith they should know their strongest ally is not trying to act as an aggressor against them. 

They were warned for several minutes they were in or approaching Turkish air space. They ignored it.

Quote:The Russian plane was dealt with because it "did not answer our warning," Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Tuesday.

ISIS isn't present at that border area, but Turkmen were there, Erdogan said. Anyone who bombs that area attacks "our brothers and sisters -- Turkmen," Erdogan said in Ankara. Turkmen are a Turkic-speaking, traditionally nomadic people who live primarily in Central Asia, but a small minority of them can be found in the Middle East, primarily in northern Iraq, Iran and Turkey.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/

This would be akin to Russia being at war with Canada and bombing Eskimos in Alaska just in case.