Two trans teen win Conn. state championship in track

[*michaelsean*]

(06-18-2018, 11:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There are people in this world that are not male or female, they are intersex. We often think of biological sex as a dichotomy, but it is actually more of a spectrum, much like gender. This is a biological thing, not a social construct like gender. So how do we handle intersex athletes?

I don't know enough to comment on that. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 11:35 AM)treee Wrote: Why not just have 3 categories, the 3rd being one that anyone can participate in.

Because you wouldn't have a male only field any longer.

[Goalpost]

Just give out a second trophy? I don't want to stop anyone from competing but maybe a second reward should be added in these cases. This doesn't happen often, so I tend to think you have to recognize this is a grey area when handing out rewards.

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 11:05 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: And a woman might feel uncomfortable whether a transgender male is in the same bathroom as her, in a stall or not, so is that not interfere with a woman's right to use the restroom in peace?

No, because there is privacy in a public restroom.  A transgender female would be less likely than a lesbian to try and invade that privacy.  So are you going to ban lesbians from womens bathrooms?

[*bfine32*]

I mentioned in an earlier thread that perhaps we should have a separate category. We already have venue where folks who have intellectual handicaps compete. This suggestion was met with much distain; although folks never told me which population I was slurring; those currently competing or those I suggested compete in the venue.

I guess the word handicap isn't PC so perhaps we could change it to intellectual handicap and/or dysphoria.

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 12:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I mentioned in an earlier thread that perhaps we should have a separate category. We already have venue where folks who have intellectual handicaps compete. This suggestion was met with much distain; although folks never told me which population I was slurring; those currently competing or those I suggested compete in the venue.

I guess the word handicap isn't PC so perhaps we could change it to intellectual handicap and/or dysphoria.

I agree.  Have a special categories for both trans men and women.  No need to call them "handicapped".

[*bfine32*]

(06-18-2018, 01:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree.  Have a special categories for both trans men and women.  No need to call them "handicapped".

Sure use whatever term that is not "insulting"; however I would assert that a female identifying as a man is physically handicapped when it comes to athletic competitions.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 12:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I mentioned in an earlier thread that perhaps we should have a separate category. We already have venue where folks who have intellectual handicaps compete. This suggestion was met with much distain; although folks never told me which population I was slurring; those currently competing or those I suggested compete in the venue.

I guess the word handicap isn't PC so perhaps we could change it to intellectual handicap and/or dysphoria.

So, would a woman with hyperandrogenism be forced into this category?

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 01:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, would a woman with hyperandrogenism be forced into this category?

No.  That is a different issue.

There is no 100% "fair" way to address transgender competition in sports.  A transgender man will never have the same natural ability as other elite male athletes, but if he is not on testosterone I don't think anyone would try and bar him from competing against women.  Women will never have the same natural ability as an elite transgender woman, and there is nothing they can do about it.  So they should just compete against each other.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  That is a different issue.

There is no 100% "fair" way to address transgender competition in sports.  A transgender man will never have the same natural ability as other elite male athletes, but if he is not on testosterone I don't think anyone would try and bar him from competing against women.  Women will never have the same natural ability as an elite transgender woman, and there is nothing they can do about it.  So they should just compete against each other.

You are correct that there is no 100% fair way to do it, but that's because this is all subjective. How can we say that it is because of testosterone giving a competitive edge to a trans woman that they cannot compete against other women, yet ignore things like hyperandrogenism? By trying to allow some things and disallow others in competition like this we are trying to achieve a fairness that can never be achieved and overcomplicating it. The simplest solution is adopting the rules of the NCAA, like Pat has advocated for. It may not seem "fair" to some people, but in truth there is no fairness existent in the system, anyway, because of the large number of conditions that provide a competitive edge that we overlook.

The percentage of trans athletes is not going to be any higher than people with these biological conditions, so we should just treat them the same way and move on with life.

[*bfine32*]

(06-18-2018, 01:16 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, would a woman with hyperandrogenism be forced into this category?

No one should be forced into anything and as I said kids under 18 should be required to participate in the category of their biological sex without any type of transition therapy.

If that person was  born a female, then participate as a female. Once you come of age then you would be required to take therapy that aligns your sex with your gender. In the case of hyperandrogenism the female would be required to take drugs that brings her testosterone levels inline with a female's. No different that the male transitioning.
 

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 01:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You are correct that there is no 100% fair way to do it, but that's because this is all subjective. How can we say that it is because of testosterone giving a competitive edge to a trans woman that they cannot compete against other women, yet ignore things like hyperandrogenism?

Because it is not just testosterone.  It is the way the male body is designed different from the female body.

Living as a transgender is a choice.  It may not be an easy choice, but if sports were important enough a transgender male who is not on testosterone could compete against women.  He could even dress like a woman when competing against them.

Based on your logic there should not even be separate sports for men and women.  They should all just compete against each other where all the elite women will lose to all the elite men.  I don't think anyone wants that to happen.  If you are going to have sperate sports for men and women you have o have some way to draw the line.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because it is not just testosterone.  It is the way the male body is designed different from the female body.

You understand that the reason for that design difference is testosterone, right?

(06-18-2018, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Living as a transgender is a choice.  It may not be an easy choice, but if sports were important enough a transgender male who is not on testosterone could compete against women.  He could even dress like a woman when competing against them.

This is why the NCAA rules require the hormone therapy.

(06-18-2018, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on your logic there should not even be separate sports for men and women.  They should all just compete against each other where all the elite women will lose to all the elite men.  I don't think anyone wants that to happen.  If you are going to have sperate sports for men and women you have o have some way to draw the line.

And we do, which is the rules like the NCAA. If you live life as a man, you compete with the men. You live life as a woman, you compete with the women. If you are trans, then you must have been on hormone therapy for at least a year to compete in your gender's field of competition. Seems like a pretty clear line.

[Millhouse]

(06-18-2018, 02:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You understand that the reason for that design difference is testosterone, right?


This is why the NCAA rules require the hormone therapy.


And we do, which is the rules like the NCAA. If you live life as a man, you compete with the men. You live life as a woman, you compete with the women. If you are trans, then you must have been on hormone therapy for at least a year to compete in your gender's field of competition. Seems like a pretty clear line.

For high level timed competitions, like track and swimming, I am still against allowing hormone treated males to compete against women. because it is still a tainted competition regardless what the NCAA thinks.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 02:32 PM)Millhouse Wrote: For high level timed competitions, like track and swimming, I am still against allowing hormone treated males to compete against women. because it is still a tainted competition regardless what the NCAA thinks.

But we allow the "tainted" competition with other conditions. What makes that different?

[Belsnickel]

I think this article expresses my opinions on this pretty well. Applying it to trans athletes, and at lower levels of competition, seems logical to me: https://theconversation.com/so-what-if-some-female-olympians-have-high-testosterone-62935

Quote:So does excess testosterone actually confer a competitive advantage?

My question is if it does, so what?

Elite sport is built on the back of inequality. We love the myth of a level playing field, but it doesn’t exist. Of the 207 nations competing in Rio, 75 have never won a medal. Wealthy, powerful countries dominate the Olympic Games, while conflicted, war-torn, impoverished countries simply lack the resources to promote sport to the level that will produce Olympic champions. That’s a clear disparity that raises little outcry.

But what we’re talking about in the case of hyperandrogenism is an innate condition that potentially enhances athletic performance. And, as scientists are just beginning to understand, elite sport is riddled with similar endowments.

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 02:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You understand that the reason for that design difference is testosterone, right?

Not completely.  The bone structure of men is different from women.  Our bodies are designed differently.  It is more than just muscle mass.

[fredtoast]

(06-18-2018, 02:44 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this article expresses my opinions on this pretty well. Applying it to trans athletes, and at lower levels of competition, seems logical to me: https://theconversation.com/so-what-if-some-female-olympians-have-high-testosterone-62935

If this is your position then why even have separate categories for men and women?

If physiological advantages don't make any difference then just have the women compete against the men in everything.

[Millhouse]

(06-18-2018, 02:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But we allow the "tainted" competition with other conditions. What makes that different?

Athletes should compete against each other without hghs, steroids, etc. We can all agree on that, I hope. A male body that started off with male muscles and bone structure that then goes on hormones to mimic a girls body, though will never fully replicate it as if it was born that way, will have advantages that a natural born female wont have.

Lets take Michael Phelps, all time gold medalist in swimming. He has a massive wingspan and perfect bone structure to dominate in swimming. If he took hormones for a year to be a girl, would it then be a fair and even competition for the natural born girls? Absolutely it wouldnt, as he (or she) would dominate them. That is what I mean by it being tainted, as there would still be an unfair advantage involved.

[Belsnickel]

(06-18-2018, 02:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not completely.  The bone structure of men is different from women.  Our bodies are designed differently.  It is more than just muscle mass.

Do you know what does that? I'll give you a hint: it starts with a "T".