UK poisoning

[StLucieBengal]

(04-05-2018, 12:10 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We try to white wash our history and hold others to a different standard. So why not?

So it’s just anti Russian paranoia, instead of legitimate concern for historical bad actors

[Belsnickel]

(04-05-2018, 12:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So it’s just anti Russian paranoia, instead of legitimate concern for historical bad actors

The current German government is a different thing that the government before the end of the Cold War, which was different than the Third Reich, which was different than the Weimar Republic, which was different than...

I could go on. The point is that the current German government is not the institution that was responsible for past atrocities. It's not just like in our case where the individuals are not the same even though the institution still is. They actually have a different government, constitution, and legal framework. The same can be said of Russia and the USSR. Should we look at Russia with a side-eye because of the atrocities committed by Stalin?

Putin has shown to be a bad actor, that is why I suspect him before others. It isn't paranoia when there is justification to believe that Russia had a hand in things because of a past history of Putin, the leader himself. There is no evidence of justification for believing the Germans would have acted in this way, whether we are talking about the current German institution or the individuals themselves.

There is paranoia existent in this thread, but it isn't with the ones that believe Russia to be at fault.

[hollodero]

(04-05-2018, 12:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: We do keep an eye on them.  We also base a lot of what we do and say of what they are CURRENTLY doing while we are watching them.  

Yeah but what are they currently doing - that just depends on your perspective, obviously. Right now, they are highly suspicious of poisoning a Russian on UK soil with a Russian nerve agent and then blame the Russians for it. I wonder why no one as of yet has claimed they were behind US election meddling or hacking into US power grids.

Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

[Belsnickel]

(04-05-2018, 12:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah but what are they currently doing - that just depends on your perspective, obviously. Right now, they are highly suspicious of poisoning a Russian on UK soil with a Russian nerve agent and then blame the Russians for it. I wonder why no one as of yet has claimed they were behind US election meddling or hacking into US power grids.

Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

I'd like to give you an explanation, but I don't have one. I know that as the right in the US moves further to the right they are going to become more and more at odds with those countries politically. But I don't think it is just that. There is something deeper there, but I don't know what.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-05-2018, 12:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah but what are they currently doing - that just depends on your perspective, obviously. Right now, they are highly suspicious of poisoning a Russian on UK soil with a Russian nerve agent and then blame the Russians for it. I wonder why no one as of yet has claimed they were behind US election meddling or hacking into US power grids.

Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

We love the UK. That’s our motherland lol.

Sweden is fine as well. Being the rape capital of Europe is a concern but that is due to Merkel the mother of all Migrants anyway.

The EU is corrupt and should not be trusted. European countries in general are fine.

[GMDino]

(04-05-2018, 12:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah but what are they currently doing - that just depends on your perspective, obviously. Right now, they are highly suspicious of poisoning a Russian on UK soil with a Russian nerve agent and then blame the Russians for it. I wonder why no one as of yet has claimed they were behind US election meddling or hacking into US power grids.

Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

My best guess is the leader of the country reflects a rising isolationist attitude from a group of citizens that are used to being a majority with all the power and who are afraid of "strangers" and "foreigners".

Sadly they still hold a lot of power and so they make the most noise.

[Dill]

(04-05-2018, 11:49 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Hw about lets just keep an eye on countries with a bad history.  why is it so painful for you to just say let’s keep an eye on historical bad countries.   Germany shouldn’t get to white wash their history while we hold others to a different standard

Here are two reasons why it is so painful to "keep an eye" on a peaceful democratic ally, with one of the most anti-war populations on the planet, or to equate it in any sense with that emerging dictatorship beyond the river Don.

1. Hitler has been dead 73 years.
2. Putin is alive.

Out of the blue--you groundlessly claim Germany, or someone, is "white-washing" German history. Recognizing that Hitler is dead is a recognition of fact, not white washing. Germans who weren't even born during the 3rd Reich are no more responsible for it, or likely to repeat it, than I am.

"Bad history"--especially the 70-80 year old variety, should not be our standard for present danger.

What sent Germany down the road to that bad history?  Hatred of immigrants, racism, wounded white/national identity focused on making Germany great again and securing its borders, politicians scapegoating religious and racial minorities in the name of national security, hating on elite but "soft" liberal politicians and "the left" while undermining democratic institutions like the free press.

Wherever we see similar tendencies in nations today--THAT is where we should direct out concern.  

[StLucieBengal]

(04-06-2018, 12:34 AM)Dill Wrote: Here are two reasons why it is so painful to "keep an eye" on a peaceful democratic ally, with one of the most anti-war populations on the planet, or to equate it in any sense with that emerging dictatorship beyond the river Don.

1. Hitler has been dead 73 years.
2. Putin is alive.

Out of the blue--you groundlessly claim Germany, or someone, is "white-washing" German history. Recognizing that Hitler is dead is a recognition of fact, not white washing. Germans who weren't even born during the 3rd Reich are no more responsible for it, or likely to repeat it, than I am.

"Bad history"--especially the 70-80 year old variety, should not be our standard for present danger.

What sent Germany down the road to that bad history?  Hatred of immigrants, racism, wounded white/national identity focused on making Germany great again and securing its borders, politicians scapegoating religious and racial minorities in the name of national security, hating on elite but "soft" liberal politicians and "the left" while undermining democratic institutions like the free press.

Wherever we see similar tendencies in nations today--THAT is where we should direct out concern.  

The fourth Reich is happening. Merkel is losing power and. Now a party who was just started in 2009 is the main. Opposition party. One that you would call right wing. They are going to get a bump in. Support from being the opposition party. Merkel will be gone within two years. The socialists are a rudderless mess that is now stuck by merkels side.

A right wing party could be in control in Germany. A Germany who controls the EU and the EU army.

[Dill]

(04-05-2018, 12:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

Maybe some of that hatred would dissipate if we could get a small "thank you" for saving Europe twice!

Seriously, Hollo, hating Europe is not new, but a newer brand may be more visible at the moment.

Here is my hypothesis, which I think will square with and supplement Dino's--

1. There has always been a strong strain of nativism in the U.S. (google "know-nothings"), but the targets of xenophobia have shifted with circumstances--from Irish to Chinese to Italians to Russians/Poles to Germans during WWI.

2. Post WWI, a lot of this xenophobia is deeply inflected with anti-communism--"leftism" and socialism become a threat to essential American values, and are imported from Europe, a bad place with many problems which immigrants bring with them. ("Exceptional" American has not had those problems.) "Socialism"--as explained to Americans by right wing Christians and rich capitalists-- is seen as political problem of European origin, and more of problem than fascism.

3. Post WWII, the cold war exacerbates this xenophobia and anti-Communism leading to the national embarrassment of McCarthyism. They remain a force against the push for civil rights and de-segregation, but increasingly on the political fringe, renounced by respectable conservatives like William Buckley. I.e., the more conspiratorial, racist and xenophobic elements are rejected, though not the distaste for "European" socialism.  50 years ago rumors to the effect that fluoridation and vaccination were Communist plots and the government was going to outlaw Christian broadcasting had no legs, no media circulation.

4. The rise of the New Right in the 80s begins the transfer of fringe paranoia/conspiracy-thinking/xenophobia to the mainstream of political discussion. The rise of talk radio, the founding of Fox News, the event of 9/11--all these combined to construct a public sphere in which the most odious caricatures of "foreigners" (or Americans as foreign--think of birtherism) circulate with roughly the same appearance of authority as respectable journalism and scholarship.  "European-style socialism" is supposed to be a goal of the Democrats and self-evidently bad.  You may remember Fox News pushing "Freedom Fries" and stories of people pouring French wine in the street because the cowardly frogs exercised that FREEDOM! Americans claim to defend by choosing not to throw money and lives down the Iraq rat hole. Europe--untrustworthy, leftist, inferior, and weak girly-men to boot.

Keeping this history in mind, I don't see any indices of elevated hatred of Europe.  On the contrary, the Net has allowed the connection of US and European right via their common Islamophobia, nationalism and hyper concern for territorial integrity and immigrant rapists.

Maybe what has struck your radar are newly prominent misinformed and groundless critiques of the EU.  That is an extension of the older critique of  bad "statist" Europe run by socialists or fascists, viewed through the lens of good 'ol "states rights" vs Big government, projected across the pond.  But from that same sector there is also much approval of the resurgence of European nationalism and the fetishism of borders. So beneath it all you are still our brothers, LOL.

[Dill]

(04-06-2018, 02:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The fourth Reich is happening.  Merkel is losing power and. Now a party who was just started in 2009 is the main. Opposition party.   One that you would call right wing.  They are going to get a bump in. Support from being the opposition party.   Merkel will be gone within two years.   The socialists are a rudderless mess that is now stuck by merkels side.

A right wing party could be in control in Germany.  A Germany who controls the EU and the EU army.

Well a democratically elected leader could be losing power, sure, to be replaced by another with similar values. I don't see the Fourth Reich emerging there.

But your worry about the rise of the German right piques my interest.  What values and policies of the German right should concern us? Who are their enemies?  Do they scapegoat any special demographics in Germany?  What specific behaviors might indicate history is repeating itself?

[StLucieBengal]

(04-06-2018, 02:34 AM)Dill Wrote: Well a democratically elected leader could be losing power, sure, to be replaced by another with similar values. I don't see the Fourth Reich emerging there.

But your worry about the rise of the German right piques my interest.  What values and policies of the German right should concern us? Who are their enemies?  Do they scapegoat any special demographics in Germany?  What specific behaviors might indicate history is repeating itself?

Seizing power over Europe using the EU. They have the most votes, the Lisbon treaty gave them the ability for an army. They override European nations using the EU courts, control borders of every member. Forced their policy of unlimited migration from the Middle East and Africa. And I could go on and on......

You somehow believe the EU is innocent. They should have only been a trade union. They do not need to centralize power in Europe. No more than we need a North American uniom. Although I bet that might be a wet dream to some here.....

[Belsnickel]

(04-06-2018, 02:11 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: The fourth Reich is happening. Merkel is losing power and. Now a party who was just started in 2009 is the main. Opposition party. One that you would call right wing. They are going to get a bump in. Support from being the opposition party. Merkel will be gone within two years. The socialists are a rudderless mess that is now stuck by merkels side.

A right wing party could be in control in Germany. A Germany who controls the EU and the EU army.

So, what you're saying is the rise of the AfD party is the fourth reich?

[Dill]

(04-06-2018, 10:35 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Seizing power over Europe using the EU.  They have the most votes, the Lisbon treaty gave them the ability for an army.  They override European nations using the EU courts, control borders of every member. Forced their policy of unlimited migration from the Middle East and Africa.  And I could go on and on......

You somehow believe the EU is innocent.  They should have only been a trade union.  They do not need to centralize power in Europe.  No more than we need a North American uniom.  Although I bet that might be a wet dream to some here.....

Step back from whatever your have been reading.

How does a policy of "unlimited immigration" lead us to the 4th Reich, except maybe by ultimately increasing the count of right wingers in Germany? How does sympathy for the suffering of Non-Germans set us down the road to military occupation of Italy or France?

I somehow believe the EU was formed by countries desirous of reducing trade barriers and increasing their clout in the global market.  They have EU courts for countries who willingly join and agree to such arbitration. If they don't like it anyone can "Brexit." Could Poland opt out of the 3rd Reich? Can Germany re-occupy the Sudetenland under EU auspices?

I am still puzzled--you worry about right wingers taking over in Germany.  So you are against right wing politics; you recognize that is the danger, not "bad history" from 73 years ago?  Yes? No?

[StLucieBengal]

(04-06-2018, 01:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, what you're saying is the rise of the AfD party is the fourth reich?

The EU. But Germany controlling the EU would mean The that AfD would eventually control them. You ok with that?

And yes I saw the ninja lol.

And FTR, I only support AfD to the point they believe in nation states. Not the EU.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-06-2018, 06:05 PM)Dill Wrote: Step back from whatever your have been reading.

How does a policy of "unlimited immigration" lead us to the 4th Reich, except maybe by ultimately increasing the count of right wingers in Germany? How does sympathy for the suffering of Non-Germans set us down the road to military occupation of Italy or France?

I somehow believe the EU was formed by countries desirous of reducing trade barriers and increasing their clout in the global market.  They have EU courts for countries who willingly join and agree to such arbitration. If they don't like it anyone can "Brexit." Could Poland opt out of the 3rd Reich? Can Germany re-occupy the Sudetenland under EU auspices?

I am still puzzled--you worry about right wingers taking over in Germany.  So you are against right wing politics; you recognize that is the danger, not "bad history" from 73 years ago?  Yes? No?

Fourth Reich is all of Europe turning their borders, currency, laws, over to the EU which is led by Germans. This is why he EU growing into what it is out of a trade union is such a huge deal. The Lisbon Treaty and how it was approved shows the nefarious desires of the EU. Led by Germany.

The EU was started with good intentions to help with trade. Once they went to a currency they started turning into the Soviet Union. The only exception is that members of the Soviet Union could leave anytime without issue. Unlike the hassle that is leaving the EU, especially when they don’t respect votes.

I support the EU as a trade union ONLY.

[Dill]

(04-06-2018, 11:53 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Fourth Reich is all of Europe turning their borders, currency, laws, over to the EU which is led by Germans.     This is why he EU growing into what it is out of a trade union is such a huge deal.   The Lisbon Treaty and how it was approved shows the nefarious desires of the EU.   Led by Germany.  

The EU was started with good intentions to help with trade.  Once they went to a currency they started turning into the Soviet Union.  The only exception is that members of the Soviet Union could leave anytime without issue.   Unlike the hassle that is leaving the EU, especially when they don’t respect votes.

I support the EU as a trade union ONLY.

No, Lucy, federal units of the Soviet Union could not leave whenever they wanted--not until it crashed.

Warsaw Pact members could not change their government form and they weren't even in the Soviet Union. Countries like Estonia and Lithuania would have fled the first chance they got if allowed.

[StLucieBengal]

(04-07-2018, 12:37 AM)Dill Wrote: No, Lucy, federal units of the Soviet Union could not leave whenever they wanted--not until it crashed.

Warsaw Pact members could not change their government form and they weren't even in the Soviet Union. Countries like Estonia and Lithuania would have fled the first chance they got if allowed.

It’s in the Soviet constitution. About as simple as possible.

The Warsaw Pact wasn’t just the USSR. It was created to thwart nato.

Quote:Article 72. Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR.

[JustWinBaby]

[Bengalzona]

(04-07-2018, 04:02 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: It’s in the Soviet constitution.  About as simple as possible.

The Warsaw Pact wasn’t just the USSR.  It was created to thwart nato.

That "right to secede" is what we now refer to as an "alternative fact".... as witnessed in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-05-2018, 12:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah but what are they currently doing - that just depends on your perspective, obviously. Right now, they are highly suspicious of poisoning a Russian on UK soil with a Russian nerve agent and then blame the Russians for it. I wonder why no one as of yet has claimed they were behind US election meddling or hacking into US power grids.

Can I ask a question - where is all this Europe hatred from the US right coming from. It's not just Germany. It's also Sweden, the UK and especially London, and notably the EU as a whole. European countries are called all kinds of evil and Europeans are called stupid idiots all the time. Why?

Well for one thing, the UK has a lot of English so there's that.   

But really, I don't think most people really dislike Europe.  I don't know the number, but millions of Americans go there every year.  I saw one guy here call Europeans stupid idiots, but I don't see a prevalence of it anywhere.  Then again I'm not looking for it.