US Inability to Count Votes is a National Disgrace. And Dangerous.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 05:00 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Hold on a minute... do you guys actually think we DON'T have belly bacon here in Canada?

I can assure you, not only have I eaten the good stuff since I was like 2, my ratio of belly bacon to Peameal eaten in my life, is literally 98.9:1.1 or something.

It's very hard to find Peameal at any restaurant and can really only be obtained at grocery stores.

If you did then why would you have the other bacon?  Only so many eggs Benedict you can eat.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-05-2020, 05:00 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Hold on a minute... do you guys actually think we DON'T have belly bacon here in Canada?

I can assure you, not only have I eaten the good stuff since I was like 2, my ratio of belly bacon to Peameal eaten in my life, is literally 98.9:1.1 or something.

It's very hard to find Peameal at any restaurant and can really only be obtained at grocery stores.

I have to add that just the fact that you call it belly bacon as if there’s an alternative is quite telling.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-05-2020, 06:37 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I have to add that just the fact that you call it belly bacon as if there’s an alternative is quite telling.

It's just to note that I'm talking about the regular stuff, that's all :)

[*PhilHos*]

Getting back on topic, I just don't see why we don't embrace technology in such a way that every registered voter can vote (and vote from the comfort of home or on their phone) and it can be tabulated super quickly and we can have the results by the end of the day. Would eliminate a lot of the bullshit of what's going on right now.

[Au165]

(11-06-2020, 12:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Getting back on topic, I just don't see why we don't embrace technology in such a way that every registered voter can vote (and vote from the comfort of home or on their phone) and it can be tabulated super quickly and we can have the results by the end of the day. Would eliminate a lot of the bullshit of what's going on right now.

There are issues there as well. When you expose a network to the internet you open the potential of global meddling at a level that is mind-boggling. It's not just the simplicity of "hacking" in and changing votes or totals, it's coordinated DDOS attacks on ISP in important areas to remove people's access to the internet. You also have the prospect of "phishing" type attacks where they collect people's credentials from fake sites and then vote on their behalf. It could be as sophisticated as devices being equipped with spyware in the manufacturing process that is put there specifically for election meddling. It would potentially make every internet-accessible device a national security threat and require massive amounts of oversight and bureaucratic red tape.

I am actually in agreement we need to update the process, but just pointing out it doesn't come without its own challenges and potential delays/claims of fraud. 

[*Nately120*]

(11-06-2020, 12:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Getting back on topic, I just don't see why we don't embrace technology in such a way that every registered voter can vote (and vote from the comfort of home or on their phone) and it can be tabulated super quickly and we can have the results by the end of the day. Would eliminate a lot of the bullshit of what's going on right now.

The biggest bullshit that is going on now is coming from Trump's mouth.  I assure you no matter how we voted in this election there would be 41% of the country screaming fraud. It's just amazing how many aspects of American democracy somewhat "worked" before Trump decided to tell us what a damn mess everything is.

[Devils Advocate]

Makes you wonder ... since the system is inadequate ...why (politicians) urge people to vote.

[Stewy]

(11-06-2020, 12:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Getting back on topic, I just don't see why we don't embrace technology in such a way that every registered voter can vote (and vote from the comfort of home or on their phone) and it can be tabulated super quickly and we can have the results by the end of the day. Would eliminate a lot of the bullshit of what's going on right now.

Seriously?  You have to ask this?  The answer is "Hackers".  That isn't paranoia, it's fact.

Aside from, who's going to develop it?  Pay for that development?  Design for maximum security (and that still won't be enough), then pay and distribute all the technology to all the states for vote tallying?   Who's going to pay for all that?

Texas' (dominantly Republican) changes to voting this year during Early voting:
Paper Ballots specially associated with your ID - you then personally feed into a voting machine
Make Choices as per normal voting
machine Spits your "card" ballot back out
On your way out you feed the ballot into a separate machine that is disconnected from any computer or computer network.
Took 3 minutes total

Very slick IMO, but those pre-cautions are there for a reason and it's because hackers can hack ANYTHING.  You want to destroy the voting process?  Have it go 100% digital.  F'ing chaos will ensue.

[Au165]

(11-06-2020, 12:39 PM)Stewy Wrote: Seriously?  You have to ask this?  The answer is "Hackers".  That isn't paranoia, it's fact.

Aside from, who's going to develop it?  Pay for that development?  Design for maximum security (and that still won't be enough), then pay and distribute all the technology to all the states for vote tallying?   Who's going to pay for all that?

Texas' (dominantly Republican) changes to voting this year during Early voting:
Paper Ballots specially associated with your ID - you then personally feed into a voting machine
Make Choices as per normal voting
machine Spits your "card" ballot back out
On your way out you feed the ballot into a separate machine that is disconnected from any computer or computer network.
Took 3 minutes total

Very slick IMO, but those pre-cautions are there for a reason and it's because hackers can hack ANYTHING.  You want to destroy the voting process?  Have it go 100% digital.  F'ing chaos will ensue.

Ehh, this is a little too far in terms of how susceptible it is. The biggest issue, like with most "hacking" isn't people forcing there a way in it is idiots giving their information away. One way to do this though would be using blockchain-based systems and I think there is some real potential down the road in such a system.

[Devils Advocate]

(11-06-2020, 12:39 PM)Stewy Wrote: Seriously?  You have to ask this?  The answer is "Hackers".  That isn't paranoia, it's fact.

Aside from, who's going to develop it?  Pay for that development?  Design for maximum security (and that still won't be enough), then pay and distribute all the technology to all the states for vote tallying?   Who's going to pay for all that?

Texas' (dominantly Republican) changes to voting this year during Early voting:
Paper Ballots specially associated with your ID - you then personally feed into a voting machine
Make Choices as per normal voting
machine Spits your "card" ballot back out
On your way out you feed the ballot into a separate machine that is disconnected from any computer or computer network.
Took 3 minutes total

Very slick IMO, but those pre-cautions are there for a reason and it's because hackers can hack ANYTHING.  You want to destroy the voting process?  Have it go 100% digital.  F'ing chaos will ensue.

Yet you trust the most important thing in your life (money) with technology.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2020, 12:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: There are issues there as well. When you expose a network to the internet you open the potential of global meddling at a level that is mind-boggling. It's not just the simplicity of "hacking" in and changing votes or totals, it's coordinated DDOS attacks on ISP in important areas to remove people's access to the internet. You also have the prospect of "phishing" type attacks where they collect people's credentials from fake sites and then vote on their behalf. It could be as sophisticated as devices being equipped with spyware in the manufacturing process that is put there specifically for election meddling. It would potentially make every internet-accessible device a national security threat and require massive amounts of oversight and bureaucratic red tape.

I am actually in agreement we need to update the process, but just pointing out it doesn't come without its own challenges and potential delays/claims of fraud. 

No doubt, but I still think it'd be better to embrace technology.

[Au165]

(11-06-2020, 12:56 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No doubt, but I still think it'd be better to embrace technology.

I agree, I just am not sure if early in it's use we wouldn't see similar fraud claims and delays which could potentially hurt it's long term viability. I think we are another 10 years or so away from having a population that is comfortable enough with technology to make this move.

It's kind of like people's fears of self-driving cars. The minute one kills someone people scream they aren't safe...but that completely forgets the 40k people who die with human drivers per year.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2020, 12:39 PM)Stewy Wrote: Seriously?  You have to ask this?  The answer is "Hackers".  That isn't paranoia, it's fact.

Aside from, who's going to develop it?  Pay for that development?  Design for maximum security (and that still won't be enough), then pay and distribute all the technology to all the states for vote tallying?   Who's going to pay for all that?

Texas' (dominantly Republican) changes to voting this year during Early voting:
Paper Ballots specially associated with your ID - you then personally feed into a voting machine
Make Choices as per normal voting
machine Spits your "card" ballot back out
On your way out you feed the ballot into a separate machine that is disconnected from any computer or computer network.
Took 3 minutes total

Very slick IMO, but those pre-cautions are there for a reason and it's because hackers can hack ANYTHING.  You want to destroy the voting process?  Have it go 100% digital.  F'ing chaos will ensue.

It doesn't have to be 100% digital. But still, there are options better than what we have now. 

At the very least, the states that are still counting should be forced to update their voting procedures.

[Belsnickel]

(11-06-2020, 01:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It doesn't have to be 100% digital. But still, there are options better than what we have now. 

At the very least, the states that are still counting should be forced to update their voting procedures.

The feds really have no grounds to do that, though. The Constitution leaves elections up to the states.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2020, 12:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: Ehh, this is a little too far in terms of how susceptible it is. The biggest issue, like with most "hacking" isn't people forcing there a way in it is idiots giving their information away. One way to do this though would be using blockchain-based systems and I think there is some real potential down the road in such a system.

(11-06-2020, 12:45 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Yet you trust the most important thing in your life (money) with technology.

Yep. I can tell you as a banker the vast majority of "hacking" that happens with people's bank accounts is 90% their own fault (falling for scams, etc.). About 9% of the remaining 10% are bank employees not doing their job (ie. giving people's bank info over the phone to scammers, etc.).

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2020, 12:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: I agree, I just am not sure if early in it's use we wouldn't see similar fraud claims and delays which could potentially hurt it's long term viability. I think we are another 10 years or so away from having a population that is comfortable enough with technology to make this move.

I disagree. The older citizenry will definitely struggle (whether through lack of knowledge or distrust of technology), but I see so many people adapting to technological advances so quickly over the years. 

There will definitely be a resistance, but I think it needs to be done. 

[*Nately120*]

(11-06-2020, 01:06 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I disagree. The older citizenry will definitely struggle (whether through lack of knowledge or distrust of technology), but I see so many people adapting to technological advances so quickly over the years. 

There will definitely be a resistance, but I think it needs to be done. 

I agree that people will not trust technology, but right now half of the country is in meltdown mode because they don't trust the very NOT new process of mailing something. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-06-2020, 01:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It doesn't have to be 100% digital. But still, there are options better than what we have now. 

At the very least, the states that are still counting should be forced to update their voting procedures.

Like PA?  Where Republicans made it a law to count mail in ballots after the in person votes were counted.

Why does everyone get in a tizzy when they are slightly inconvenienced.  Oh no we don't know who the next president is, who doesn't get inaugurated until January, on November 3rd.......AHAHHHAHHAHHAHHAAAMMMMMAAAA  blow my gasket.   

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2020, 01:38 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Like PA?  

Yes.

[hollodero]

(11-06-2020, 01:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It doesn't have to be 100% digital. But still, there are options better than what we have now. 

Imho a quite obvious solution would be opening up more polling places and having more poll workers at hand.