US income inequality continues to grow

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 09:52 AM)Beaker Wrote: Throughout my life I don't know anyone who hasn't gotten pay raises if they were a decent employee and stayed on the job for a reasonable amount of time.

Who cares about the people you know?  The facts are the facts.  Overall middle and lower class workers are being more productive and their wages are not increasing.

According to the BLS, the average hourly wage for non-management private-sector workers last month was $20.67, But after adjusting for inflation, today’s average hourly wage has just about the same purchasing power as it did in 1979, In fact, in real terms the average wage peaked more than 40 years ago: The $4.03-an-hour rate recorded in January 1973 has the same purchasing power as $22.41 would today.


What gains have been made, have gone to the upper income brackets. Since 2000, usual weekly wages have fallen 3.7% (in real terms) among workers in the lowest tenth of the earnings distribution, and 3% among the lowest quarter. But among people near the top of the distribution, real wages have risen 9.7%.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/


In between 1978 and 2014, inflation-adjusted CEO pay increased by almost 1,000%, according to a report by the Economic Polcit Institute.  Meanwhile, typical workers in the U.S. saw a pay raise of just 11% during that same period.

The ratio between average American CEO pay and worker pay is now 303-to-1. This ratio is lower than its peak in 2000, when it was 376-to-1, but it’s in excess of the 1965 ratio of 20-to 1.

[Millhouse]

Anyone know when the last time wealth inequality had this much disparity? The late 1920s right before the big one hit.

Then the gap shortened up quite a bit until the late 1970s . After the 1970s though, the gap has been widening back up to the 1920s level.

Those that are denying the gap is widening is similar to those denying climate change exists. The only difference is there is more clear data on this.


This chart shows % change in income since 1979. Between WW2 and 1979, the middle and rich classes % income change was similar to one another.

[Beaker]

(07-27-2018, 11:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Who cares about the people you know?  

I do. And people who want to listen and have a thoughtful discourse do.  I don't agree with many of your opinions, but you don't see me typing "who cares about what you think".

I am middle class. I am making a comfortable living. I am not being exploited. I am not jealous (nor do I care) that others make more than me. Income redistribution determined by others is a form of theft and destroys incentive for innovation. I have made my way in this world and share my beliefs because I think positive outlooks on the opportunity to be successful are more empowering that the constant negative portrayals coming from those who erroneously position themselves as the heroes of the downtrodden. 

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 12:38 PM)Beaker Wrote: I do. And people who want to listen and have a thoughtful discourse do.  I don't agree with many of your opinions, but you don't see me typing "who cares about what you think".

I am middle class. I am making a comfortable living. I am not being exploited. I am not jealous (nor do I care) that others make more than me. Income redistribution determined by others is a form of theft and destroys incentive for innovation. I have made my way in this world and share my beliefs because I think positive outlooks on the opportunity to be successful are more empowering that the constant negative portrayals coming from those who erroneously position themselves as the heroes of the downtrodden. 

Why should I care about your opinion when I have facts that prove you are wrong.

American workers are more productive and creating more wealth but they are not getting a share of it.  It is all being taken by the people at the top.  That is exploitation.  

You are clueless about how this works.  That is why you refuse to answer my question about why people in the great depression didn't fix things by getting better jobs.  So why would I care about your opinion.

What is the combined income for you and your wife?

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2018, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are clueless about how this works.  That is why you refuse to answer my question about why people in the great depression didn't fix things by getting better jobs.  So why would I care about your opinion.

What is the combined income for you and your wife?

I don't really care what you think, but tell me more?  Perhaps you should have been a therapist.  Hardy har.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2018, 02:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your income is not an opinion.  You claim you are middle class, but what is your combined household income?

My combined income would be my income combined with my cat, who makes even less money than you'd think.

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 02:05 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My combined income would be my income combined with my cat, who makes even less money than you'd think.

My bad.  I thought I was replying to Beaker.

But his income is not an opinion.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2018, 02:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My bad.  I thought I was replying to Beaker.

But his income is not an opinion.

I get it, I just thought that was an amusing exchange.

[Beaker]

(07-27-2018, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why should I care about your opinion when I have facts that prove you are wrong.

American workers are more productive and creating more wealth but they are not getting a share of it.  It is all being taken by the people at the top.  That is exploitation.  

Just what exactly have you proved wrong that I have said? That people can't improve their position via hard work and smart choices with their money? That people cannot live comfortably in the middle class? That income is not supposed to be equal? That we should not be jealous that others may make more money than us? I don't think anything you've posted disputes any of those things.


I can however, prove what you are saying is wrong. American workers ARE getting a share of it, and it is not ALL being taken by the people at the top. If what you said were true that would mean zero wealth for anyone else. You are making false exaggerations with those two sentences. In other words, what you are saying is wrong.


And why should you care? Well, you repeatedly claim you care about people. Maybe that's what you've proved to be wrong.

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 04:06 PM)Beaker Wrote: Just what exactly have you proved wrong that I have said? That people can't improve their position via hard work and smart choices with their money? That people cannot live comfortably in the middle class? That income is not supposed to be equal? That we should not be jealous that others may make more money than us? I don't think anything you've posted disputes any of those things.

I have proven that middle and lower class workers are not capable of improving the economy just by getting better jobs.  The economy does not rise and fall based on how lazy or motivated workers are.

Also "Jealousy" has nothing to do with workers demanding a share of the wealth they are creating.

None of the other stuff really has anything to do with the economic principles I am discussing.  It is just rhetoric used by the wealthy when they can't address the actual issues facing the middle class.

(07-27-2018, 04:06 PM)Beaker Wrote: I can however, prove what you are saying is wrong. American workers ARE getting a share of it, and it is not ALL being taken by the people at the top. If what you said were true that would mean zero wealth for anyone else. You are making false exaggerations with those two sentences. In other words, what you are saying is wrong.

Not just myself, but other people here have posted facts showing that when adjusted for inflation middle class wages have not grown since the 1970's while income for the top 10% have grown at an large rate.  All the "new" wealth (not that created by inflation) has gone to the top 10%.  I have also posted facts showing that workers have become more productive.  They are creating more wealth but they are not getting a share.  That is exploitation.

[Beaker]

(07-27-2018, 04:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have proven that middle and lower class workers are not capable of improving the economy just by getting better jobs.  The economy does not rise and fall based on how lazy or motivated workers are.

The tried and true fredtoast tactic of oversimplifying in an attempt to make someone who doesn't agree seem like they said something that basic.

There is nothing preventing an individual from superseding the culture in which they grew up and making good decisions. Instead of whining about historical injustices, which nobody denies existed, that caused the cultural pathologies that hamper some communities, we should be talking about ways to overcome obstacles.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-27-2018, 04:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have proven that middle and lower class workers are not capable of improving the economy just by getting better jobs.  The economy does not rise and fall based on how lazy or motivated workers are.

Also "Jealousy" has nothing to do with workers demanding a share of the wealth they are creating.

None of the other stuff really has anything to do with the economic principles I am discussing.  It is just rhetoric used by the wealthy when they can't address the actual issues facing the middle class.


Not just myself, but other people here have posted facts showing that when adjusted for inflation middle class wages have not grown since the 1970's while income for the top 10% have grown at an large rate.  All the "new" wealth (not that created by inflation) has gone to the top 10%.  I have also posted facts showing that workers have become more productive.  They are creating more wealth but they are not getting a share.  That is exploitation.

That’s not exploitation. An unfair or no wage is exploitation. So you can argue that an unfair wage is exploitation, but a share of the wealth created is not part of the equation. How much a company or another person makes is irrelevant. If your $20 an hour is a fair wage when the company is making $1million then it’s still fair when it’s making $20 million assuming your duties haven’t changed. Does it make the employer a dick not to give you more? To me it does, but that doesn’t make it exploitation. It’s different for Marxists but I don’t think anyone here is close to that.

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 08:01 PM)Beaker Wrote: There is nothing preventing an individual from superseding the culture in which they grew up and making good decisions.

I don't know why you keep talking about individuals instead of the system.

There is limit on the number of individuals who can get high paying jobs.  You can't keep acting like the problems facing the middle class can be fixed by individuals working harder.  If they all worked as hard as they could there would still be a limited number of good jobs limiting their advancement.

You have fallen for the trick where people know the problem is with the system but instead blame individuals for being lazy.  That way the system doe snot have to give up any of the benefits that are currently being sucked up by the wealthy elite.

[fredtoast]

(07-27-2018, 04:06 PM)Beaker Wrote:  That we should not be jealous that others may make more money than us? 

Is everyone who asks for a raise jealous?

If you work hard at your job and increase profits for the business then is asking for a raise based on jealousy?

[Beaker]

(08-01-2018, 11:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Is everyone who asks for a raise jealous?

If you work hard at your job and increase profits for the business then is asking for a raise based on jealousy?

You mean working hard, doing well at your job and asking for a raise after an appropriate amount of time in order to improve your economic position? Or just whining about how much others make and claiming its unfair?

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2018, 03:31 PM)Beaker Wrote: You mean working hard, doing well at your job and asking for a raise after an appropriate amount of time in order to improve your economic position? Or just whining about how much others make and claiming its unfair?

I mean workers who have become more productive and are making more money for the business owner.  Is it possible for them to ask for a raise based on something other than jealousy?

I have heard a lot of talk by politicians and middle class workers that think it is important to "help the middle class".  Why is that?  Do you think they should just tell the middle class to shut up and stop being jealous?

You seem to think that the middle class has it so good that they have nothing to complain about.  Why do you think so many people disagree with you?  Are most middle class workers just too greedy?

[*Nately120*]

(08-01-2018, 04:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I mean workers who have become more productive and are making more money for the business owner.  Is it possible for them to ask for a raise based on something other than jealousy?

I have heard a lot of talk by politicians and middle class workers that think it is important to "help the middle class".  Why is that?  Do you think they should just tell the middle class to shut up and stop being jealous?

You seem to think that the middle class has it so good that they have nothing to complain about.  Why do you think so many people disagree with you?  Are most middle class workers just too greedy?

You mean like Trump and his supporters talking about bringing back coal jobs when apparently anyone who isn't a lazy freeloader should already have a good job?

[Millhouse]

(08-01-2018, 04:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I mean workers who have become more productive and are making more money for the business owner.  Is it possible for them to ask for a raise based on something other than jealousy?

I have heard a lot of talk by politicians and middle class workers that think it is important to "help the middle class".  Why is that?  Do you think they should just tell the middle class to shut up and stop being jealous?

You seem to think that the middle class has it so good that they have nothing to complain about.  Why do you think so many people disagree with you?  Are most middle class workers just too greedy?

Wall Street doesn't disagree. Stockholders would rather corporations they are invested into pay as little as possible to employees with fewest benefits as possible so they can get bigger returns on their shares.

Though there are companies like Costco care more for their employees and customers over their stockholders. But they are an exception instead of the norm unfortunately.

In which case what really can be done to basically force other companies to care for their employees more than their stockholders? I am guessing not too much realistically since there is obviously a lot of greed involved.

[treee]

(08-01-2018, 04:48 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Wall Street doesn't disagree. Stockholders would rather corporations they are invested into pay as little as possible to employees with fewest benefits as possible so they can get bigger returns on their shares.

Though there are companies like Costco care more for their employees and customers over their stockholders. But they are an exception instead of the norm unfortunately.

In which case what really can be done to basically force other companies to care for their employees more than their stockholders? I am guessing not too much realistically since there is obviously a lot of greed involved.

One argument for stronger social services is that it gives the common man more bargaining power when negotiating terms of employment. It decreases the number of desperate workers able to be taken advantage of.

[Beaker]

(08-01-2018, 04:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I mean workers who have become more productive and are making more money for the business owner.  Is it possible for them to ask for a raise based on something other than jealousy?

Yes. And they would then be making more money and living more comfortably (coupled with good decisions) despite what their business owner makes or keeps.

Quote:You seem to think that the middle class has it so good that they have nothing to complain about.

 
People will always complain, take you for example. I prefer to empower people by letting them know they can overcome obstacles and make a comfortable life for themselves....despite what others have. Hint: That includes more than just telling them not to be lazy.