US income inequality continues to grow

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2018, 05:03 PM)Beaker Wrote:  I prefer to empower people by letting them know they can overcome obstacles and make a comfortable life for themselves....despite what others have. Hint: That includes more than just telling them not to be lazy.

Okay then.  Middle class wages have been stagnate for decades.  Their wages when adjusted for inflation have not grown since the 1970's yet costs of education and health care have grown at a much higher rate.  So how does the middle class (not just an individual, but the entire middle class) overcome that obstacle?

[Belsnickel]

(08-01-2018, 05:03 PM)treee Wrote: One argument for stronger social services is that it gives the common man more bargaining power when negotiating terms of employment. It decreases the number of desperate workers able to be taken advantage of.

This is very much true. There were some great minds (the names of which I read a long time ago and have forgotten) that discussed the transition to wage labor and the reliance of the laborer on the employers to be, in essence, a new type of slavery. By crafting a social safety net that workers can fall back on it improves the position from which they can bargain for increased pay and treatment in the workplace.

[Beaker]

(08-01-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then.  Middle class wages have been stagnate for decades.  Their wages when adjusted for inflation have not grown since the 1970's yet costs of education and health care have grown at a much higher rate.  So how does the middle class (not just an individual, but the entire middle class) overcome that obstacle?

Its more than one obstacle. Its whatever obstacle is in a person's way to bettering their position economically speaking. For some it can be as easy as changing their spending habits, for others there are more complex or a greater number of obstacles that may be in their way. But each person needs industry and perseverance to figure out what that is and to figure out how they can overcome. For some, they won't be able to do it without help. We need to be teaching our kids to problem solve, to think for themselves, how things like debt, interest and money work, and how they can make their way despite setbacks and obstacles. And how it doesn't matter what someone else has because there will always be someone with more than you. 
  

[*Nately120*]

(08-01-2018, 07:44 PM)Beaker Wrote: And how it doesn't matter what someone else has because there will always be someone with more than you. 

Yeah, but I still want that tax cut.

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2018, 07:44 PM)Beaker Wrote: Its more than one obstacle. Its whatever obstacle is in a person's way to bettering their position economically speaking. For some it can be as easy as changing their spending habits, for others there are more complex or a greater number of obstacles that may be in their way. But each person needs industry and perseverance to figure out what that is and to figure out how they can overcome. For some, they won't be able to do it without help. We need to be teaching our kids to problem solve, to think for themselves, how things like debt, interest and money work, and how they can make their way despite setbacks and obstacles. And how it doesn't matter what someone else has because there will always be someone with more than you. 
  

So you honestly think that middle class wages became stagnate in the 1970's because of the way the individual people in the middle class started behaving.  You think the great depression in the 1930's was caused by millions of individuals making bad decisions all at the same time.  You don't think the economic situation of the middle class has anything to do with foreign competition, the tax code, or government policy of any type?

You must have been really confused during the last election when every single person was talking about government policy to help the struggling middle class.  You honestly had no clue what any of them were talking about.

[HarleyDog]

(08-01-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then.  Middle class wages have been stagnate for decades.  Their wages when adjusted for inflation have not grown since the 1970's yet costs of education and health care have grown at a much higher rate.  So how does the middle class (not just an individual, but the entire middle class) overcome that obstacle?

There is a deficit in those capable of doing special trades. Also a deficit of people willing to work. You want a boat, car and house? Good lord, check indeed or the local newspaper. The economy is doing great and jobs can’t be filled fast enough. That problem in some way will slow this growth down. I guess welfare and Obamacare is still too enticing to get some to walk outside and get something better. Middle class is not something that is given too anyone.

[Belsnickel]

It will never cease to amaze me how often people buy into the false narrative that the extremely small minority of people receiving welfare that just don't want to work and/or are abusing the system are the problem. Educated and ignorant alike buy into this trope from the GOP that has been sold to them for decades.

[Beaker]

(08-01-2018, 08:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you honestly think that middle class wages became stagnate in the 1970's because of the way the individual people in the middle class started behaving.

Nope, I don't think that.

Quote:  You think the great depression in the 1930's was caused by millions of individuals making bad decisions all at the same time.

No, I don't think that either.

Quote: You don't think the economic situation of the middle class has anything to do with foreign competition, the tax code, or government policy of any type?

I think it has to do with all those things and more.

Quote:You honestly had no clue what any of them were talking about.

The only thing I have no clue about is how you reach these absurd conclusions. 

[Beaker]

(08-01-2018, 08:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: There is a deficit in those capable of doing special trades. Also a deficit of people willing to work. You want a boat, car and house? Good lord, check indeed or the local newspaper. The economy is doing great and jobs can’t be filled fast enough. That problem in some way will slow this growth down. I guess welfare and Obamacare is still too enticing to get some to walk outside and get something better. Middle class is not something that is given too anyone.

You're crazy Harley, it's all other people's fault....they are the ones holding everyone back. 

Listen to guys like fred. They'll set you straight that there are no good paying jobs, that its tax cuts for the wealthy elite and their greed that are preventing you from bettering yourself. Just stop with your crazy talk.

[*Nately120*]

I must admit its always interesting watching people with very different realities discuss things.

[treee]

(08-01-2018, 09:34 PM)Beaker Wrote: You're crazy Harley, it's all other people's fault....they are the ones holding everyone back. 

Listen to guys like fred. They'll set you straight that there are no good paying jobs, that its tax cuts for the wealthy elite and their greed that are preventing you from bettering yourself. Just stop with your crazy talk.

From my understanding, tax cuts for corporations make sense, as long as you're making up for it by taxing the amount the investors make. That way the corporation continues to operate with less hindrance, and we don't remove more income from a government already operating at a deficit. And for that matter, no tax cuts at all make sense, whatsoever, if they increase the annual deficit more than a certain percentage of the GDP (I don't know the exact numbers, just that there are ideal debt:income ratios).

[Belsnickel]

(08-02-2018, 12:08 AM)treee Wrote: From my understanding, tax cuts for corporations make sense, as long as you're making up for it by taxing the amount the investors make. That way the corporation continues to operate with less hindrance, and we don't remove more income from a government already operating at a deficit. And for that matter, no tax cuts at all make sense, whatsoever, if they increase the annual deficit more than a certain percentage of the GDP (I don't know the exact numbers, just that there are ideal debt:income ratios).

If the economy is doing well, which right now it is, then we should be increasing taxes and decreasing spending. That is Keynesian economics. The problem is that people only like the other half of Keynesian thought which is to decrease taxes and increase spending. That is what we are supposed to be doing in economic downturns. Unfortunately, it is what we have been doing in good and bad. It puts us in a position where the next recession could turn into a depression because we have limited the tools in our toolbox to fight it. We've kept this up thanks to the fallacy of "trickle down" theory, which doesn't work.

But people who don't understand these sorts of things will continue to be fleeced as the ones with money and power pull the strings, laughing all the way to the bank.

[*Nately120*]

(08-02-2018, 08:33 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: If the economy is doing well, which right now it is, then we should be increasing taxes and decreasing spending. That is Keynesian economics. The problem is that people only like the other half of Keynesian thought which is to decrease taxes and increase spending. That is what we are supposed to be doing in economic downturns. Unfortunately, it is what we have been doing in good and bad. It puts us in a position where the next recession could turn into a depression because we have limited the tools in our toolbox to fight it. We've kept this up thanks to the fallacy of "trickle down" theory, which doesn't work.

But people who don't understand these sorts of things will continue to be fleeced as the ones with money and power pull the strings, laughing all the way to the bank.

Not to mention that the argument isn't that there aren't jobs out there, but that our system doesn't reward hard work like it used to. Work harder and receive less for it. Life isn't fair, is it?  People seem to flip flop on that notion .

[Belsnickel]

(08-02-2018, 10:31 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Not to mention that the argument isn't that there aren't jobs out there, but that our system doesn't reward hard work like it used to. Work harder and receive less for it. Life isn't fair, is it?  People seem to flip flop on that notion .

You mean the argument is being misrepresented? Can't be! In all seriousness, you are dead on. We know that productivity has been increasing yet wages have not kept up with inflation, lots of costs have increased beyond inflation, and the income gap has been widening. If production has been increasing then it would make sense that wages should at least be matching inflation, but the stripping of regulation and the move of corporations to be more concerned about shareholders than stakeholders has caused severe damage to the labor force in our country.

But nah, people are just being lazy.

[Beaker]

(08-02-2018, 10:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You mean the argument is being misrepresented? Can't be! In all seriousness, you are dead on. We know that productivity has been increasing yet wages have not kept up with inflation, lots of costs have increased beyond inflation, and the income gap has been widening. If production has been increasing then it would make sense that wages should at least be matching inflation, but the stripping of regulation and the move of corporations to be more concerned about shareholders than stakeholders has caused severe damage to the labor force in our country.

But nah, people are just being lazy.

All of this is true. But none of it precludes people from living comfortably in the middle class, nor does it prevent them from economic mobility. It may make economic mobility more of a challenge, but does not prevent it. 

I think its a telltale bad sign about our society when people start to blame others for their situation and use that as an excuse for inaction rather than finding the industry, smart decisions and perseverance to see if you can't change your situation yourself. 

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2018, 09:31 PM)Beaker Wrote: The only thing I have no clue about is how you reach these absurd conclusions. 

It isimpossible for me to come toany other conclusion based on the answers you have provided to my questions.

When I point out the problems the mioddle class had had with stagnate wages since 1970 you refuse to give me any explanation other than vague meaningless things like "Obstacles" then you talk only about individual desisions.

So if you have a problem with my conclusions then tell me what you really think.  I would not have to make any assumptions if I could get a straightj answerfrom you.

[fredtoast]

(08-01-2018, 08:36 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: There is a deficit in those capable of doing special trades. Also a deficit of people willing to work. You want a boat, car and house? Good lord, check indeed or the local newspaper. The economy is doing great and jobs can’t be filled fast enough. That problem in some way will slow this growth down. I guess welfare and Obamacare is still too enticing to get some to walk outside and get something better. Middle class is not something that is given too anyone.

The problem is not the people not working.  The problem is low wages that allow large corporations to make record profits while tax payers have to support the workers.  Over two thirds of people receiving government assistance are from working families.

The middle class is being squeezed by the upper class while blaming the other lower and middle classs worker, or illegal immigrants, or anyone other than the people who are actually taking in all the new wealth created by the booming economy.


If you all really beliueved that we should not "blame anyone else" then you would not be worried about building a wall to keep out immigrants.  The ealthy leasers in charge have you guys all fired up into vblaming illegal immigrants when  it is actually the wealthy leaders that are taking all the profits and putting the squeeze on the middle class.

[Beaker]

(08-02-2018, 11:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It isimpossible for me to come toany other conclusion based on the answers you have provided to my questions.

No it's not. They say there are two kinds of people in a conversation, those who listen, consider and respond thoughtfully, and those who sit there hearing Charlie Brown's teacher while they think of what they want to say next. Belsnickel is the first type.

[*Nately120*]

(08-02-2018, 11:02 AM)Beaker Wrote: All of this is true. But none of it precludes people from living comfortably in the middle class, nor does it prevent them from economic mobility. It may make economic mobility more of a challenge, but does not prevent it. 

I think its a telltale bad sign about our society when people start to blame others for their situation and use that as an excuse for inaction rather than finding the industry, smart decisions and perseverance to see if you can't change your situation yourself. 

If you agree the system is making it increasingly more difficult to have economic mobility, what are we arguing about?  

(08-02-2018, 11:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you all really beliueved that we should not "blame anyone else" then you would not be worried about building a wall to keep out immigrants.  The ealthy leasers in charge have you guys all fired up into vblaming illegal immigrants when  it is actually the wealthy leaders that are taking all the profits and putting the squeeze on the middle class.

At one point there was the argument that if you were lazy and stupid enough to get outworked by an illegal that you deserved to lose your job, so who cares if they come into this country.  Then the argument had to be changed to them not taking our jobs so much as coming here to rape and murder us.  So illegals went from taking jobs from dumb lazy Americans, to just straight up murder-raping us all.

And yes, with every election we see we are bombarded with fake sympathy and promises to save the poor downtrodden middle class.  

[GMDino]

(08-02-2018, 11:18 AM)Nately120 Wrote: If you agree the system is making it increasingly more difficult to have economic mobility, what are we arguing about?  

People argue about it because *THEY* is doing okay and *THEY* know people who also are okay.

Doesn't matter about the people they doesn't know.  They can just make blanket statements about them.

And that's not about BEaker (I don't know him) that's a general statement about the entire discussion in the country.