US income inequality continues to grow

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 12:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's not that simple. There may not be less expensive housing. There may not be other jobs you're qualified for that pay better. And because most of your income is tied up in housing, it prevents spending on educational pursuits to improve your situation.

People offer up what they see as simple solutions, but without understanding the ins and outs of the issue they don't realize that it isn't nearly as simple as they think it is.

My wife and I both have college degrees.  We make more money than we ever did (save a brief period when commissions were better for me) and we are no better off than when we got married over 20 years ago.

Some of that is by choice.  We have two kids (one getting married next year).  We bought a house.  We traded in her car for a new car three years ago rather than invest in fixing the old one.  We take a vacation every year with my family.  My wife had gone back to college after our youngest was born and we are still paying for that.

We make choices to spend.

Some is not by choice.

Medical bills for my wife (every test and every consultation and every medication).  My car died and we had to invest in one for me six months after we got hers. The lawnmower died and we bought a used one.  Business is down in my industry (which I've been in for 20 year) so, as I said, commissions are down.  All utilities are up.  

Maybe I just need to "work harder"?  Or should I give up 20 years experience and just "get a new job"?

Decisions, decisions....

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 12:31 PM)Beaker Wrote: Geez, how does anybody ever make a living in this oppressive country?

It's hard.

And hard work will get some by.

For a lot of others it will not.

No one said life was fair...but to completely ignore the reality of the current economy with a "get a different job and move" mentality is weak sauce IMHO.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 12:25 PM)Beaker Wrote:  get a job and work your way up, and while doing so live within your means. The formula is there for all. 

"Work your way up" where?

If  company hires thousands of employees they are not all going to move up to higher positions.  There will always be a lot more lower wage jobs than higher paying management jobs.

Your formula is impossible because it is impossible for every person to work up to a higher position.  There are a limited number of jobs so it is ridiculous to just tell everyone to get a better job.

It is like telling every team that if they work hard they will win the championship when you already know that only one team will win the championship.  

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "Work your way up" where?

If  company hires thousands of employees they are not all going to move up to higher positions.  There will always be a lot more lower wage jobs than higher paying management jobs.

Your formula is impossible because it is impossible for every person to work up to a higher position.  There are a limited number of jobs so it is ridiculous to just tell everyone to get a better job.

It is like telling every team that if they work hard they will win the championship when you already know that only one team will win the championship.  

Exactly.

It used to be that the lower wage workers at least got raises if they didn't "move up".  Even that is a dying thing.

Unemployment is at historical lows...and wages aren't going up.  That's a problem.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 12:31 PM)Beaker Wrote: Geez, how does anybody ever make a living in this oppressive country?

The question is not "anybody"?  We all know that some people are smarter, more skilled, had better education, or just the proper connections to get a well paying job.  The question is what do we do with people who can't get those limited number of jobs when we all know there are not enough of them?

You can't just tell everyone to "work harder" when the system makes it impossible for everyone to get a good job even if they all worked as hard as possible.

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: No one said life was fair...but to completely ignore the reality of the current economy with a "get a different job and move" mentality is weak sauce IMHO.

So you shouldn't take steps to change your situation? You should just stay in the circumstance you're in because it can't change? That line of thinking is weak sauce IMHO.

[GMDino]

(07-24-2018, 12:41 PM)Beaker Wrote: So you shouldn't take steps to change your situation? You should just stay in the circumstance you're in because it can't change? That line of thinking is weak sauce IMHO.

Of course you should try.  But you're ignoring all the factors that can and do prevent that.

And that even those who are trying are not making it because of the way our economy is right now.

I get the "I got mine...tough on you" mentality.  I just thought it was be lessened by now.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 12:41 PM)Beaker Wrote: So you shouldn't take steps to change your situation? You should just stay in the circumstance you're in because it can't change? That line of thinking is weak sauce IMHO.

This is a perfect example of how well the rhetoric of the elite is working.

There are not enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one yet some people have fallen for the claim that the only reason everyone does not have a high paying job is because they are lazy.

They don't understand reality/

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The question is not "anybody"?  We all know that some people are smarter, more skilled, had better education, or just the proper connections to get a well paying job.  The question is what do we do with people who can't get those limited number of jobs when we all know there are not enough of them?

You can't just tell everyone to "work harder" when the system makes it impossible for everyone to get a good job even if they all worked as hard as possible.

I get what youre sayng. But youre oversimplifying when youre saying I am just saying work harder. Obviously its not that simple. For a fair portion of people, bad choices such as not finishing school, etc helped land them in poverty situations. But they still have options to help turn that around. 

On the other end, why should there be limits on how much you can earn? If I run a company and want to keep a certain percentage of the profit, then that is my option. If that percentage is too high, the company will not thrive, or the workers will be unhappy causing them to leave. Then my company, or at least my profits go down. There has to be a balance. But if you put restrictions on how much must be kept or given out, you take away incentive to own/run a business in the first place. 

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is a perfect example of how well the rhetoric of the elite is working.

There are not enough well paying jobs for everyone to have one yet some people have fallen for the claim that the only reason everyone does not have a high paying job is because they are lazy.

They don't understand reality/

So people that don't like their circumstance should not try to change it? Speaking of reality, that seems pretty unrealistic to me.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 12:28 PM)Beaker Wrote: Yes you can. The limits you speak of are not permanent. And everyone is afforded at least a high school education. After that you can even apprentice at a trade and make a living wage.

There are a limited number of well paying jobs.  So not everyone can just "pick one" if there are not enough available.

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Of course you should try.  But you're ignoring all the factors that can and do prevent that.

And that even those who are trying are not making it because of the way our economy is right now.

I get the "I got mine...tough on you" mentality.  I just thought it was be lessened by now.

I am not ignoring anything. I am saying you need to persevere in spite of those obstacles. Its not about "too bad for you", its about not listening to those who insist factors will prevent your success not matter how hard you try.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 12:34 PM)GMDino Wrote: My wife and I both have college degrees.  We make more money than we ever did (save a brief period when commissions were better for me) and we are no better off than when we got married over 20 years ago.

Some of that is by choice.  We have two kids (one getting married next year).  We bought a house.  We traded in her car for a new car three years ago rather than invest in fixing the old one.  We take a vacation every year with my family.  My wife had gone back to college after our youngest was born and we are still paying for that.

We make choices to spend.

Some is not by choice.

Medical bills for my wife (every test and every consultation and every medication).  My car died and we had to invest in one for me six months after we got hers. The lawnmower died and we bought a used one.  Business is down in my industry (which I've been in for 20 year) so, as I said, commissions are down.  All utilities are up.  

Maybe I just need to "work harder"?  Or should I give up 20 years experience and just "get a new job"?

Decisions, decisions....

Is it bad that the biggest thing I took out of this back and forth is that Dino bought a used lawnmower?

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are a limited number of well paying jobs.  So not everyone can just "pick one" if there are not enough available.

The trades are begging for more people currently. Only a high school diploma or GED is needed and they pay very well.

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "Work your way up" where?

If  company hires thousands of employees they are not all going to move up to higher positions.  There will always be a lot more lower wage jobs than higher paying management jobs.

Your formula is impossible because it is impossible for every person to work up to a higher position.  There are a limited number of jobs so it is ridiculous to just tell everyone to get a better job.

It is like telling every team that if they work hard they will win the championship when you already know that only one team will win the championship.  

Give up.
Don't try because you cannot succeed.
Complain about people who have more than you.

Got it.

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 12:53 PM)Beaker Wrote: So people that don't like their circumstance should not try to change it? Speaking of reality, that seems pretty unrealistic to me.

No. I never said that at all.  You do not even understand the conversation we are having.  I am talking about the entire economic system, and all you talk about are individuals.  

Maybe this will help.  If every person in the United States worked as hard as they could and got a masters degree from ab IVY League school then would every person in the United Sates have $100K a year job?  If so then who would do all the lower paying jobs?


You keep avoiding talking about the system because you have been brainwashed to believe that the only reason everyone is not in management is because some people are lazy.  BUt the fact is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for everyone to be in management.   

[fredtoast]

(07-24-2018, 01:02 PM)Beaker Wrote: Give up.
Don't try because you cannot succeed.
Complain about people who have more than you.

Got it.

So if everyone just worked harder there would be no low paying jobs in the entire country?

I never said to "give up".

I never complained about people who have more than me.

You are just making these things up because you can not address what I am actually saying.

[Belsnickel]

Here are some facts. During the '50s and '60s, you could find a job that would support you with only a high school diploma. You could be able to afford food, shelter, transportation, medical costs, and would have a pension for retirement. You could afford to pay for a post-secondary education without too much of a struggle, as well, to give you more upward mobility. Unsurprisingly, at this time our Gini coefficient was at one of the lower points in history.

Things have changed. Our Gini coefficient is now higher than experts estimate it to have been in 1774, counting slaves. We saw a situation like this following Reconstruction. It came on the heels of the Industrial Revolution and the corporations that emerged from it. They gained tremendous power and wealth and created greater economic inequality through the policies they advocated for. The Progressives tried to put a halt to it, or at least slow it down, but they proved to be largely ineffective. Then came the Great Depression and the New Deal. Policies enacted, as well as the amount of money spent during WWII, took wealth and power away from the wealthy and the corporations. It reduced income inequality in the country and produced an economic period many people think of fondly. There were problems with the policies when it comes to race and gender, but they made an effort to correct the errors of the past.

Then along came the political shifts in the '70s. Both parties, now becoming more partisan and ideological, start to abandon the ways of the past couple of decades. They embraced neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism, turning towards a more free-market mindset which equals free-trade policies and reduced oversight of the market by the government. This allowed for corporations and the wealthy to regain their power over the years, which creates a cycle of them pushing for policies that only increase their power and wealth. This includes the inflation driving policies.

What I have typed above is not my opinion, these are the events that have happened politically. When income inequality rises too high we reach a point where upward economic mobility is highly improbable and the democratic system becomes an oligarchy/plutocracy. We have seen that policies can be enacted to correct this, and we have seen that they can be reversed to cause the problem anew. The question I ask, though, is are we willing to let our society reach a low point before we seek corrections? Are we going to ignore the lessons learned in our history?

[Beaker]

(07-24-2018, 01:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No. I never said that at all.  You do not even understand the conversation we are having.  I am talking about the entire economic system, and all you talk about are individuals.

I believe the entire economy begins with the individual. Gotta start at the beginning if you want to affect change. 

[*michaelsean*]

(07-24-2018, 01:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here are some facts. During the '50s and '60s, you could find a job that would support you with only a high school diploma. You could be able to afford food, shelter, transportation, medical costs, and would have a pension for retirement. You could afford to pay for a post-secondary education without too much of a struggle, as well, to give you more upward mobility. Unsurprisingly, at this time our Gini coefficient was at one of the lower points in history.

Things have changed. Our Gini coefficient is now higher than experts estimate it to have been in 1774, counting slaves. We saw a situation like this following Reconstruction. It came on the heels of the Industrial Revolution and the corporations that emerged from it. They gained tremendous power and wealth and created greater economic inequality through the policies they advocated for. The Progressives tried to put a halt to it, or at least slow it down, but they proved to be largely ineffective. Then came the Great Depression and the New Deal. Policies enacted, as well as the amount of money spent during WWII, took wealth and power away from the wealthy and the corporations. It reduced income inequality in the country and produced an economic period many people think of fondly. There were problems with the policies when it comes to race and gender, but they made an effort to correct the errors of the past.

Then along came the political shifts in the '70s. Both parties, now becoming more partisan and ideological, start to abandon the ways of the past couple of decades. They embraced neo-conservatism and neo-liberalism, turning towards a more free-market mindset which equals free-trade policies and reduced oversight of the market by the government. This allowed for corporations and the wealthy to regain their power over the years, which creates a cycle of them pushing for policies that only increase their power and wealth. This includes the inflation driving policies.

What I have typed above is not my opinion, these are the events that have happened politically. When income inequality rises too high we reach a point where upward economic mobility is highly improbable and the democratic system becomes an oligarchy/plutocracy. We have seen that policies can be enacted to correct this, and we have seen that they can be reversed to cause the problem anew. The question I ask, though, is are we willing to let our society reach a low point before we seek corrections? Are we going to ignore the lessons learned in our history?

We also had the post war boom, and people did not live then like they live today.  One car maybe, no cable tv, no smart phones, no AC for a lot of people.  I'm not saying what you are saying is wrong, but supporting a family then is different than now.