USPS Issues

[GMDino]

(08-14-2020, 01:47 AM)Benton Wrote: I think the GOP has abandoned the need for fabrications. By and large, they've been able to gerrymander and manipulate enough to have a pretty steady "majority" despite being in the minority.  At this point, as Trump is demonstrating and as Cheney and McConnell have done in the past, there's not really any reason to keep up some sham. They can crap on procedure and tradition and laws all they want, as long as those checks keep cashing.

Dismantling the USPS has been a long-term goal of the GOP. Despite it employing a huge number of veterans, being 100% solvent if not for GOP pension requirements and providing a necessary service, the 'let's outsource everything!' group of Reagan-era Republicans are still cashing those checks and trying to do away with it.

Unfortunately, for many small businesses, the USPS makes a huge difference in profitability. Personally, for my small business, using one of the other options out there would more than triple my mailing cost, which is the second biggest issue behind printing. Which means, to the consumer, my product price would have to more than double. Which likely means fewer customers and people able to afford it.

Interestingly (to me) one of my friends of college who is a full blown conspiracy nut (but a wonderful person otherwise) and proudly wears all her Trump gear just posted all the items that she is taking to the post office to send out for her business after getting a huge sales month.

I want to explain the disconnect to her but would it matter?

[Dill]

(08-14-2020, 08:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: Interestingly (to me) one of my friends of college who is a full blown conspiracy nut (but a wonderful person otherwise) and proudly wears all her Trump gear just posted all the items that she is taking to the post office to send out for her business after getting a huge sales month.

I want to explain the disconnect to her but would it matter?

I don't know if "explain" is the right approach.

You might just ask a few questions about her business and the new postal policies.

[GMDino]

(08-14-2020, 09:00 AM)Dill Wrote: I don't know if "explain" is the right approach.

You might just ask a few questions about here business and new postal policies.

Not even worth that.  She has aside business that she uses the post office to mail her product.  And with no irony is a super proud Trump supporter.

[hollodero]

(08-13-2020, 11:34 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Can we just make Trump the king of America and be done with it?  Any country that allows this guy to be the president doesn't want to be a democracy anymore.  We want this, give it to us.  Tie us down and just force it in there.  We love it.

I guess more and more Trump supporters would prefer a fraudulent authoritarian one-party system over a functioning democracy that includes the threat that an enemy is voted in office.

Which, in combination with Trump's deeds, is one of the reasons why I'd argue this election might just be about the future of democracy this time around.

This is what imho tends to happen as soon as hate is introduced as a political motivation, which Trump absolutely does. It soon trumps all other impulses, including decency, including facts and logic, including the one to preserve democracy. Putin, by the way, knows that. That's why he throws in all those ressources to hammer millions of people with propaganda to aid the ideology of right-wing populism. And he does this shit all over Europe too, all in an attempt to attack our democracies and societies. But hardly was any country so receptive to the underlying ideology than the US was. You're in danger.

[*Nately120*]

(08-14-2020, 09:03 AM)GMDino Wrote: Not even worth that.  She has aside business that she uses the post office to mail her product.  And with no irony is a super proud Trump supporter.

Between that and neo-cons making sure giant corporations don't have to pay taxes I wonder how anyone who owns a small business could be so gung-ho about that political party, but what do I know?

[GMDino]

[*Nately120*]

I have to hand it to Trump for being so amazingly transparent about this, it's really something. I can't even think of anything mildly clever or cynical to say right now.

[GMDino]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/obama-trump-trying-actively-kneecap-postal-service-affect-2020-election-n1236758

Quote:Former President Barack Obama, in an interview released Friday, slammed President Donald Trump for trying to “actively kneecap the Postal Service” to affect mail-in voting in the 2020 election and urged lawmakers and citizens to take actions to “protect the integrity” of the election.


Obama, speaking on the podcast of his former campaign manager David Plouffe, was responding to recent comments by Trump, who said earlier this week that holding up emergency funds for the U.S. Postal Service would ensure that the post office would be unable to “take all of these millions and millions of ballots.”

Obama, responding to those remarks, accused Republicans of having tried for years "to discourage people’s votes from counting in all kinds of ways,” like voter identification laws and gerrymandering, but said Trump’s threats were “unique to modern history.”

Trump opposes USPS funding because of mail-in voting

“What we've never seen before is a president say, ‘I'm going to try to actively kneecap the Postal Service to encourage voting, and I will be explicit about the reason I'm doing it,’" Obama said of Trump, who has pushed for in-person voting. "That's sort of unheard of, right? And we also have not had an election in the midst of a pandemic that is still deadly and killing a lot of people.”


“So in that circumstance, the thing I'm most worried about is … how do we protect the integrity of the election process? How do we make sure that people's votes are counted? How do we police and monitor how state officials are setting up polling places and ensuring that every vote is counted?” he continued.


Trump has so far resisted congressional Democrats' efforts to add billions of dollars to the Postal Service budget to help fund the extra work needed to process more voting by mail as a result of the coronavirus pandemic — although he later suggested he would not veto such funding if it were part of the next coronavirus relief package.

Trump has repeatedly claimed that mail-in voting, used in the United States since the Civil War, invites fraud. There’s no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the United States, according to numerous investigations and studies.


In June, a major Trump donor, Louis DeJoy, was installed as postmaster general, and earlier this month, he announced a major shakeup of the service's top leadership.


And earlier this summer, Trump's presidential campaign sued to block Nevada's expansive mail-in voting plans.

But how can someone vote for Biden when he might, uh, something something!

[masterpanthera_t]

(08-14-2020, 02:54 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Look, as a Trump voter, this is impossible to defend.  I'll admit it. 

Yes, and that's a good start.

Quote:Trump is mulling out loud everything he thinks he could do to keep himself in power.  It's what people who make it all the way to the top tend to do, although most do have the tendency to not say things like that out loud. 

While people in power in this democracy do mull ways to keep said power, I highly doubt it's been mulled in ways that erode the separation of powers tending towards authoritarianism. Certainly not in the modern era. It simply cannot be stated that the difference is just a matter of stating it loudly. The fundamental lack of understanding and respect for the separation of powers raises a serious concern for constitutional law which is unprecedented. 

Quote:I would think younger liberals (you don't strike me as one) might be more positive though.  In reality, it is a high likelihood that the 2016 election was the last gasp of a dying subset of this country.  A lot of stars had to align for that upset.

I would not consider myself as particularly fitting the young liberal mold, but I don't see reasons for positivity based on what you mention here. Yes, various factors' confluence such as built up economic grievances in the midwest, combined with a very polarizing democratic candidate, led to the election results from 2016. However, if Trump continues on his current trajectory of disregard for rule of law, the country's checks and balances can be eroded to the point where it's not a functional democracy any longer. At least it's a possibility based on the tacit approval from the republicans not calling Trump to account. Too late at that point, to go back no matter if the country as a whole becomes majority liberal or anything else. 

Quote:Ask yourself though:  What do Democrats need to do to stay in power?  


1.  They could promise a welfare state. 
2.  They could support open borders and guaranteed citizenship at the same time.
3.  They could allow 16 year old's to vote.

I don't see these concerns of a welfare state nor open borders to be particularly convincing. It's arguable that much of the "entitlements" or the like benefit people of conservative leanings predominantly, I am also skeptical of illegal immigration leading to "open borders" being much more than a political ploy, considering that it could most likely be stopped by new legislation/enforcement against the businesses which actually provide employment to the economically poor migrants who've arrived illegally. Certainly the businesses are not doing it altruistically, but rather for profitability of cheap labor.
I don't know how seriously allowing sixteen year olds voting rights has been discussed, but even then, don't really have a reason to suspect that it would benefit democrats, unless you can show me reasonable studies which conclude sixteen year olds tend to be majority liberal or favor democrat policies.

Quote:Why do they want these things?  Out of the kindness of their hearts, right?  Out of their benevolent desire for justice and equity for all?     

In the realm of politics, I maintain a cynical view and don't hold Dems to a pedestal. However, this also applies to Republicans, and I don't see your statement to be effective in the sense that, this statement doesn't only apply to one party. Also, it's arguable that while desire for power is priority number one, that there isn't some ( possibly a majority) that actually values justice and equality, especially in the younger generations. 

Quote:There is simply no way you can have open borders and a welfare state.  If you think such a thing is possible, then I don't know what to say to you.  The Democratic leaders know that too.  They are making promises they good and well know they can't keep, and they are doing it to stay in power  

Addressed in statements above. But there's literally no where that I've said open borders or a welfare state is possible or wanted by me. So that's an argument you introduced. WTS, I tend to believe that this is exaggeration to bring fear for the purpose of garnering conservative votes. I am open to evidence if it can be shown that Democrats have stated that as a goal especially as majority view in the party.

Quote:At least they are not being unconstitutional.  Unless lying through your teeth is unconstitutional.

If lying was unconstitutional, then we can pretty much say US politics have been so since probably one of the first elections of the country, or at a minimum in the last 50 years or so. Regardless, there are some things which are debatably constitutional, where the Supreme court can decide. But the matter we're speaking of here is a trajectory which leads to a usurping of power where democracy may potentially not exist. I know things haven't devolved to that state yet, but if purposely impacting voting by deliberately affecting the USPS for that purpose goes through, that's but one step where authoritarianism can be plausibly imagined. Perhaps not this one act, but taken in conjunction with withholding funds to Ukraine for personal favors, musing about delaying elections, combined with what seems like a spineless party acceding to every abuse of power, and a government bureaucracy being filled with cronies at many levels, and a disconcerting DOJ seemingly inclined to partisan interpretation of the law to an unprecedented level, it's not impossible to envision the eroding of this democracy. Even if it doesn't happen in four more years of Trump (debatable), the playbook has been taking form, and the possibility that a much more intelligent and focused individual in the future could implement the steps is a harrowing thought. Certainly certain topics and thoughts once unimaginable and utterable, now becoming public discussions are very concerning. I hope it's a temporary blip on the democratic radar and not a signal of a seismic shift in patterns.

Quote:Look, if Biden gets this election, then the only thing I know is that there will be two people not running things.  Trump and Biden.  Who knows what long standing principles will guide Harris?  She is another who made it to the top, and I don't think it was by helping out the little guy.

I suppose it's possible, but possibly given her status as a caretaker instead of being elected to the office, party influences and such can mitigate her absolute decision-making. I'm definitely not a Harris fan, and don't believe that she has helped out the little guy a whole lot or much, but do believe she's a political opportunist who can be swayed by the will of her constituents and by her party. Certainly, Congress will have a strong role in which policies she is able to implement. Having said that, Trump has definitely never helped the little guy, and I'm not sure some "little guy" conservatives' self interests are really well served by voting Republican anyway.

Quote:If the demographic shifts stay shifting in the same direction, then this country will never have a Republican in the presidency again.

If the majority of the country wants liberal policies, then I don't see this as a disaster. I would view it as a major problem if constitutional rights of conservatives were impeded, for example 2A rights, but it could be argued that such a demographic shift would help out "little guys" of both political parties, while cutting the power of corporations and the rich. Also, the conservative party under such a scenario might alter its platform, but I don't believe it will go away nor be ineffective. They might go back to more constitutional conservatism roots.

Quote:In an alternate reality were there was no covid-19, Trump would have had another round.  That is why Biden was chosen in the first place.  The Democratic party was literally phoning it in.  Covid-19 was the best thing the Democratic establishment could have ever hoped for.  There is a very strong chance it derailed a 2nd Trump term, and I don't think the stars would align for another 2016  ever again.    

I believe Biden had turned the corner in the primaries way before any real covid impacts were recognizable in the US. While not being a particularly inspirational candidate, saying that he won by default or was phoned in, is completely incorrect. Considering the large number of candidates in dem primaries, Biden won without any significant interference from the party establishment. The argument you make is more plausible in 2016, but not now. As for covid, it has definitely helped Biden in two ways I can conceive of: Trumps atrocious handling of it leading to widespread disapproval and tendency to shift towards Joe, and Biden not needing to be constantly picked apart on the campaign trail. As for the stars aligning for someone like Trump in 2016, I would only say it remains to be seen. I have concerns that a Trump playbook is now available for a much more intelligent, less gaffe prone outsider with authoritarian aspirations to implement. Someone who is capable of waking the line where public statements are more easily disguised, all the while with the sharpness and focus to hire better more closely aligned philosophical cronies to the administration in order to slowly and seamlessly erode checks and balances, while artfully manipulating and placating  the base until it's too late to turn back the clock because the checks and balances have been replaced with loyalists. 

At the moment, it's not too late to reset the democracy to its fully undamaged state, and for that reason alone a Biden presidency is palatable. After the restoration, we can revisit a stage where once again any potential eroding of democracy is not a possibility and we can go back to partisan bickering as normal.

[Belsnickel]

[*michaelsean*]

(08-14-2020, 12:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I have to hand it to Trump for being so amazingly transparent about this, it's really something.  I can't even think of anything mildly clever or cynical to say right now.

Just let me say that pushing a form of voting that the most evil person ever has some control over was brilliant.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2020, 10:41 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Just let me say that pushing a form of voting that the most evil person ever has some control over was brilliant.

Not sure what you mean with this.  I will say that I'm just hoping we don't end up with a democracy on par with the one in North Korea, but I'm not sure it's pure nihilism to picture that happening here.

[Belsnickel]

(08-18-2020, 10:41 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Just let me say that pushing a form of voting that the most evil person ever has some control over was brilliant.

Every method of voting has a number of ways that people can impact it to alter the results. There is no perfect way. However, most of the time people value our democratic principles enough to understand that using their authority to do so would be damaging to the very foundations of our country.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-18-2020, 10:44 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Not sure what you mean with this.  I will say that I'm just hoping we don't end up with a democracy on par with the one in North Korea, but I'm not sure it's pure nihilism to picture that happening here.

I'm saying I don't think that pushing to have mail in voting in astronomical numbers, when the person you consider to be the most vile person to have ever lived has some control over the agency that delivers those ballots, was the smartest thing in the world.  The people touting the integrity of mail in voting are now horrified about the potential lack of integrity of mail in voting.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2020, 10:48 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Every method of voting has a number of ways that people can impact it to alter the results. There is no perfect way. However, most of the time people value our democratic principles enough to understand that using their authority to do so would be damaging to the very foundations of our country.

I actually find it baffling how people can so gleefully accept one form of governmental oppression while fighting another, seemingly smaller one tooth and nail.  But again, it all comes down to people willingly believing what they are told about oppression and rights rather then taking an objective view on it.

gotta wear a mask = unconstitutional tyranny
politician tampering with an election = strong preventative measure to ensure the well-being of the country

[Belsnickel]

(08-18-2020, 10:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm saying I don't think that pushing to have mail in voting in astronomical numbers, when the person you consider to be the most vile person to have ever lived has some control over the agency that delivers those ballots, was the smartest thing in the world.  The people touting the integrity of mail in voting are now horrified about the potential lack of integrity of mail in voting.

Honestly, this is because too many people have been putting too much faith in the institutions that were set in place. I don't know how many times it has to be shown to Democrats in Congress that Trump gives zero shits about the Constitution or our democracy and he is more than happy to violate every norm in place if it means it helps him hold onto power and that the Republicans in Congress are willing conspirators in this.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2020, 10:53 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, this is because too many people have been putting too much faith in the institutions that were set in place. I don't know how many times it has to be shown to Democrats in Congress that Trump gives zero shits about the Constitution or our democracy and he is more than happy to violate every norm in place if it means it helps him hold onto power and that the Republicans in Congress are willing conspirators in this.

But doesn't that come down to the belief that Trump loves the country and freedom and the constitution, but he's not afraid to deny those unalienable rights to people who would use them to destroy the country?

It just comes down to saying that rights and freedom are awesome, but we need a president who is man enough to strip our enemies of those rights and protect us from them.  It's the same logic we use to justify destroying any enemy while saying that killing is wrong...they deserve it.  Trump is just much better at convincing people that the enemy is your fellow Americans than people expected.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2020, 10:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm saying I don't think that pushing to have mail in voting in astronomical numbers, when the person you consider to be the most vile person to have ever lived has some control over the agency that delivers those ballots, was the smartest thing in the world.  The people touting the integrity of mail in voting are now horrified about the potential lack of integrity of mail in voting.

Yep, it's pretty much impossible to win any conflict with a sociopath who is well-connected.

[Dill]

(08-18-2020, 10:57 AM)Nately120 Wrote: But doesn't that come down to the belief that Trump loves the country and freedom and the constitution, but he's not afraid to deny those unalienable rights to people who would use them to destroy the country?

It just comes down to saying that rights and freedom are awesome, but we need a president who is man enough to strip our enemies of those rights and protect us from them.  It's the same logic we use to justify destroying any enemy while saying that killing is wrong...they deserve it.  Trump is just much better at convincing people that the enemy is your fellow Americans than people expected.

Sounds like someone is exercising his inalienable rights the wrong way. 

Would you step over here, please, sir?   The rest of you just keep posting.  Move along.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2020, 01:46 PM)Dill Wrote: Sounds like someone is exercising his rights the wrong way. 

Would you step over here, please, sir?   The rest of you just keep posting.  Move along.

Hey, I'm on the right side of this one.  I think it's great that we finally have a president who isn't afraid to point out that Americans were the real enemies after all.  Let's be honest, we've had way too much freedom here and like a kid who didn't do his homework we are being stripped of our privileges for our own good.