Universal Basic Income

[Belsnickel]

So, I found this Twitter thread, which is a couple years old, about UBI. It got me thinking about the topic and considering trying to do a little research on it. Would anyone actually be interested in this discussion?

When discussing Universal Basic Income, inevitably the retort comes: "So you just want people to not have to work, is that it?" Accompanied by a smug smirk, expecting me to backpedal and hem and haw, say "Of course not, that's silly." Except...yes. Yes, I do. 1/11

— Lori Summers (@madlori) July 23, 2019

[Vas Deferens]

Quote:What if desperation didn't motivate everything? Imagine the impact on health, relationships, parenting, well-being, crime, violence, progress. When you aren't desperately scrabbling for the rent, you can spare a neuron to contemplate long-term problems.

This is the greatest side effect in my opinion, and would have a ripple effect on so many aspects of daily life i don't believe we can fully comprehend. 

   

[Belsnickel]

(01-04-2022, 03:28 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: This is the greatest side effect in my opinion, and would have a ripple effect on so many aspects of daily life i don't believe we can fully comprehend. 

It's very interesting for sure. One argument I saw was that UBI is actually more libertarian in theory than people give it credit for. The idea being that it is putting taxes back in the hands of the people. Now, I don't agree with that because let's be clear, it is straight up redistribution of wealth which is not libertarian in nature, but it is an interesting thought. It does, however, promote entrepreneurism. UBI and universal healthcare (not tied to your employer) are two policies that promote people taking more investment risks. It causes people to start businesses they may never have tried to start otherwise because there is a safety net in place. It takes power away from corporations and is one of the only ways we could actually see a shift from the big box stores back to the mom and pops.

[Arturo Bandini]

This is our next step in Europe.

To me, the main benefit is people trying to do things they love better then doing things just to eat.

It can really change the whole mood out there.

[CJD]

I 100% agree with her that the threat of homelessness and desperation compelling employees into suboptimal working conditions is one of the biggest problems in our society today. A UBI potentially prevents that and that's good. My problem, which is common among all redistributive programs, is how they work on a macro scale. The logistics are a ***** nightmare and anyone who tells you they can project them accurately is lying to you to get your vote.

I think that society is possible, but I think it'll require a few more increments than what a lot of leftists seem to think. I want to start moving down those increments, but I'm not sure a UBI is that first increment. I'd say we can start with corporate regulations, ultra wealthy tax increases/loop hole closures, minimum wage laws and universal health care. Once those are secured, we can see how things calibrate and move on from there. If that leads to UBI, so be it.

Or we can just do it and see what happens. Honestly, I'd take any change to the current paradigm at this point.

[Vas Deferens]

Agree with both of you. Think about the economic uplift to depressed communities if their crime rate was reduced... Over time. Lower insurance rates, more taxes back into the system, better education... I really can't wrap my head around all the ways this would help or how long it would take to see the benefits.

[Arturo Bandini]

But actually, something like that already exists in France, it's called social minima ( 600 euros ) but you can't live decently with that much.

But you are elligible for something called HLM ( low rented houses ) who are owned by the government and loaned at low prices for poor people.

[Belsnickel]

(01-04-2022, 04:33 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I 100% agree with her that the threat of homelessness and desperation compelling employees into suboptimal working conditions is one of the biggest problems in our society today. A UBI potentially prevents that and that's good. My problem, which is common among all redistributive programs, is how they work on a macro scale. The logistics are a ***** nightmare and anyone who tells you they can project them accurately is lying to you to get your vote.

I think that society is possible, but I think it'll require a few more increments than what a lot of leftists seem to think. I want to start moving down those increments, but I'm not sure a UBI is that first increment. I'd say we can start with corporate regulations, ultra wealthy tax increases/loop hole closures, minimum wage laws and universal health care. Once those are secured, we can see how things calibrate and move on from there. If that leads to UBI, so be it.

Or we can just do it and see what happens. Honestly, I'd take any change to the current paradigm at this point.

Within policy analysis there are always different ways we look at things like this. We do a lot of of projections where we look at incremental changes as well as big leaps. As with everything, when we do analysis on these things we try to account for all sorts of potential outcomes and externalities, but that isn't possible. We do a lot of work to take these things into account, though.

I've been downloading some research papers on the topic, including a couple of white papers and a full on book on the topic. I'm looking forward to looking more into this actual research.

[treee]

UBI would be better (and maybe even cheaper) than the hodgepodge of welfare systems we currently have that are a nightmare to work through.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I support it simply because it will be a necessity eventually, potentially soon. I saw recently that a self driving semi did it's first 80 mile test drive on public roads. There's 3.6 million truck drivers in the US, it's nearly 3% of the US workforce on it's own. That's how many people are going to be without a job as soon as those self driving trucks are approved. Probably throw in all the cab drivers and people who get money from uber/lyft. Even if you want to talk cheap/minimum wage jobs you have self checkout replacing cashiers and baggers, and at fast food places they're starting to put kiosks to replace people taking orders inside.

I also believe that it's probably time to consolidate all of the various government aid programs into one. So just take all of them away and replace them with a UBI that initially would offset the difference between what you would earn from working a 40 hour minimum wage job and what you would need as a living wage. (Or ideally a 32 hour job, as they could easily cut either 2 hours a day or a day a week and lose basically nothing other than pointless meetings that are designed to justify someone else's job and waste everyone's time.) Might have to up it higher as more automation takes away jobs, but I think that's a decent starting point. It replacing all other forms of government aid and only bringing you to a living wage with a full time minimum wage added to it would help fend off/placate a bit some of the people who would oppose it as anti-work.

I'll admit I never really looked into/thought too much about the topic seriously until Yang ran and brought it into the discourse circulation. I had heard of it prior in some scifi books, but I hadn't really thought any deeper on it then. I never once thought of it as a Libertarian thing, but that's also why I never really cared for boxing oneself into a political party when you can have beliefs that span all of them.

[*Nately120*]

I can just picture it now....



DEMOCRAT - Hey, how about we pass universal basic income!
VOTERS - Yay!
REPUBLICAN - I have a better idea...how about we pass universal basic income but instead of letting everyone have it, we give it all to the ultra-rich and then they will create jobs and the money will trickle down to everyone!?  Also, when you are ultra-rich...which, let's be honest, will be any day now as long as we make sure only republicans get elected...YOU will get universal basic income!
VOTERS - Yay!  Do that instead!
REPUBLICAN - Also, I totally just saw someone in a BIN LADEN ROCKS shirt using his universal basic income check to buy an American flag so he could burn it!  We can't let any dumbass have this...they will blow it!
VOTERS - BOOOOOOO!!!
REPUBLICAN - So whaddaya say?  Universal basic income for the ultra-rich, right?!
VOTERS - USA!!!! USA!!!!!
DEMOCRAT - Oh fiddle faddle!  


END SCENE


Seriously though, people in this country love free stuff, but they hate the idea of other people who "don't deserve it like they totally do" getting free stuff even more.  Good luck.

[CKwi88]

Tell me you're on r/antiwork without telling me you're on r/antiwork

[CJD]

(01-04-2022, 05:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Within policy analysis there are always different ways we look at things like this. We do a lot of of projections where we look at incremental changes as well as big leaps. As with everything, when we do analysis on these things we try to account for all sorts of potential outcomes and externalities, but that isn't possible. We do a lot of work to take these things into account, though.

I've been downloading some research papers on the topic, including a couple of white papers and a full on book on the topic. I'm looking forward to looking more into this actual research.

Let me know what you find, because the idea is intriguing, I'm just not sure how best to implement it.

[basballguy]

my hot take -

UBI is for lazy governments. Don't know who needs what? Hell just give everyone 1000 bucks......that should do it....lets not focus on the real problems.

If you think you need a UBI then you also need an education on the government programs already available to you.

Edit: So we don't think i'm missing the point. If everyone was capable of self sustainment then this would never even be a conversation starter.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-04-2022, 02:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I found this Twitter thread, which is a couple years old, about UBI. It got me thinking about the topic and considering trying to do a little research on it. Would anyone actually be interested in this discussion?

When discussing Universal Basic Income, inevitably the retort comes: "So you just want people to not have to work, is that it?" Accompanied by a smug smirk, expecting me to backpedal and hem and haw, say "Of course not, that's silly." Except...yes. Yes, I do. 1/11

— Lori Summers (@madlori) July 23, 2019

I wouldn’t lead with that tweet.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-04-2022, 04:20 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: This is our next step in Europe.

To me, the main benefit is people trying to do things they love better then doing things just to eat.

It can really change the whole mood out there.

So are we just hoping a whole bunch of people don’t decide to spend their days trying to make money off of their hobby? Because most people won’t.

The idea that people shouldn’t be responsible for taking care of themselves is about five steps too far for me. I just can’t get the mentality that other people are responsible to pay my way so I can go have fun. One on one how would you tell someone that they are responsible to pay for your life of leisure?

[Belsnickel]

(01-05-2022, 11:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: So are we just hoping a whole bunch of people don’t decide to spend their days trying to make money off of their hobby? Because most people won’t.

The idea that people shouldn’t be responsible for taking care of themselves is about five steps too far for me. I just can’t get the mentality that other people are responsible to pay my way so I can go have fun. One on one how would you tell someone that they are responsible to pay for your life of leisure?

If we look at the evidence surrounding it, what has happened with UBI policies in other places, we know that won't be the case. There are always abuses of the system, it is that way with every policy, but the fact is that people want to work.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-06-2022, 07:34 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: If we look at the evidence surrounding it, what has happened with UBI policies in other places, we know that won't be the case. There are always abuses of the system, it is that way with every policy, but the fact is that people want to work.

Until they don’t. Then you’re screwed. Or until everyone wants to make a business out of their hobby and mostly fail.

And according to your tweet not working wouldn’t be an abuse of the system.

[*Nately120*]

(01-06-2022, 10:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Until they don’t. Then you’re screwed. Or until everyone wants to make a business out of their hobby and mostly fail.

And according to your tweet not working wouldn’t be an abuse of the system.

Even if this did get passed I'm sure we could convince a significant part of the population that if they accepted that free money from the government it would place the mark of the beast on their social security number, or something crazy like that...anything to get people to refuse a free thing that could benefit them.

And who would be screwed?  If 50% of the workforce wants to quit so they can become professional yodelers, or whatever constitutes a hobby, doesn't that just make people who are willing to work suddenly far more valuable?  Maybe I'm short-sighted, but I feel like my career would take a step in the right direction by default if half the people who had my degree and skillset just disappeared.

I'm also cynical enough to think that "sitting at home staying out of society" is a job worthy of minimum wage, for the sake of the rest of us. Well, now that social media is a thing, I guess that doesn't protect us from basement-dwelling nuts.

[Belsnickel]

(01-06-2022, 10:39 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Until they don’t. Then you’re screwed. Or until everyone wants to make a business out of their hobby and mostly fail.

And according to your tweet not working wouldn’t be an abuse of the system.

Did you read all of the tweets in the thread, or just stop with the first one?

I already know the answer based on your responses, but I wanted to engage in the rhetorical.