Universal Basic Income

[NATI BENGALS]

(01-06-2022, 09:35 PM)basballguy Wrote: I don't understand this analogy.  Ignoring your personal politics, what's wrong with Florida?  

https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/florida-man/

[basballguy]

(01-06-2022, 09:57 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/florida-man/

right i'm familiar with that phenomenon....But that doesn't make me think of the state a certain way...just that there's lunatics that live there.  

[*Nately120*]

(01-06-2022, 09:35 PM)basballguy Wrote: I don't understand this analogy.  Ignoring your personal politics, what's wrong with Florida?  

Nothing, as long as you are Tom Brady or a virulent disease. 

[basballguy]

(01-07-2022, 09:21 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Nothing, as long as you are Tom Brady or a virulent disease. 

Ok so it was a politically driven opinion...got it.  

[*Nately120*]

(01-07-2022, 01:12 PM)basballguy Wrote: Ok so it was a politically driven opinion...got it.  

Florida also looks like a penis taking a leak on Cuba.

[basballguy]

(01-07-2022, 01:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Florida also looks like a penis taking a leak on Cuba.

This is something i can get behind.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Universal Basic Income is the adult version of a ten year old’s allowance from their parents.

[jmccracky]

(01-07-2022, 07:30 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Universal Basic Income is the adult version of a ten year old’s allowance from their parents.

My brother took his allowance and bought a mower. Then he ended up having his own landscaping gig. His own boss! With the landscaping money, he ended up saving enough for his dream car. 

Not everyone is gonna spend the money on crack. People wanna work. There are those that will buck the system, and those peeps will always be around. Of course we should look at ways to curb that type of behavior. People wanna work. But sometimes people wise up after getting the poop end of the stick all their lives. We are seeing this happening. 

Would this work? I'm not sure. But what do people who are literally a hospital bill away from going bankrupt, have to lose? They're already being treated like crap. 

I'm known as a very good worker. I'm the type of worker that strives and achieves being the best in any job I've ever done. However, I don't feel like everyone is some snotty teenager just wanting more Nintendo game money. I will admit that I can't stand a freeloader. But the ones like me deserve a better chance at the prizes. 

If I had this....or a good healthcare system in place, you bet your ass Id be more apt to take small risks to get to the top of the job I really want to do. But right now, those small risks are huge and I could lose everything with the drop of a hat. And I don't have one of them there minimum wage jobs. I've got a decent paying job. Not good enough. Seeing the wage gap get wide and wider is wrong. 

Signed,
A person who also hates a freeloader. 

[jmccracky]

In essence, I guess what I am trying to say is, I'd like to see more power given to the working class. I have CoVid and bad brain fog right now. Lol

[GMDino]

Without getting into the weeds too much as I haven't had a lot of time to research this in depth I look at it as a way to help people who really need it the most.

And as with most giant programs there will be some who slip through the nets and some who abuse the system.

And we have/had lots of these types of programs in this country...we've just spent 40 years telling people that poor people will take advantage and "waste" the money so we have to give to rich people who "know what to do with it" and then THEY will give it to the poor people.  Who I assume will then magically NOT waste it?  I'm not sure they thought that one all the way through...lol.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-07-2022, 11:40 PM)jmccracky Wrote: In essence, I guess what I am trying to say is, I'd like to see more power given to the working class.

Amen.

We all want that. However, government has no compelling reason to do so. Why would power be given to the likes of you or me when it can be given to the likes of Big Pharma? Big Pharma is making billions with their sweetheart “deal” with the government to avoid lawsuits and prosecution.

[Belsnickel]

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: Thanks for the correction...not words in my regular vocabulary so i always mess it up.  That aside...at the risk of sounding like a smart-ass it sounds like there's a time management issue if all "we" do is work, eat, and sleep.  However, it seems like the point here is we don't generate "enough" income versus "we shouldn't have to work".  If you're talking supplements then I feel like that's a completely different conversation.  The lady linked in the twitter post isn't making that case.  

Which is why the tweets were intended as an effort to get into a more in depth discussion. UBI is intended as a safety net. The idea that "we shouldn't have to work" is that life is an unalienable right. Requiring employment to be able to live is contradictory to that idea. So if something happens, UBI is there to ensure a citizen has the ability to live if they find themselves unemployed.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: Do not do enough according to who?  You?  What's the bar?  You are stating an opinion.  The fact is...there are programs there for anyone that qualifies and there have been countless financial studies by people far more educated than you and I to come up with a plan that works the best it can for us.  

So, here is where my knowledge and education comes in as a policy wonk. Sure, there are countless financial studies done by people far more educated and you and I that have come up with plans that work the best they can for us. Guess what, though. We aren't utilizing them. Our social safety net is a failure, and I have never met a wonk in that specialty that would say otherwise. In so many measures that are used by these folks, the US falls far behind our WEIRD brethren. Here is also another little secret, there are UBI policies that these folks have come up with that would work far better than what we have. The reason we don't have them has nothing at all to do with their efficacy or their cost. It has to do with our politicians being too conservative and with the deadlocks in Congress that prevent any real progress which is a result of our broken system that is not truly representative of our country's citizens.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: As for them being difficult to navigate and utilize, that'll always be a mixed bag.  That's not the government's fault.  That's society's fault.  We are currently a culture of "Well what about this scenario?" (I'm not saying that's wrong) but since we're always looking to make "stuff" more available for people, there's going to be more rules.  It extends to all aspects of life...LGBTQ+ stuff, accessibility laws/guidelines, how we sort our trash..you can go on forever.  We are a complex society that strives to ensure everyone is happy and included.  It's a good thing.  

Look, I'm a bureaucrat. I love red tape as much as the next wonky paper pusher. However, far too often we have policies and regulations put in place that alter something and there isn't enough effort put into it to figure out the way it can translate best to the public.

I'll give you a "for instance" that is unrelated but highlights how things go awry. In wildlife conservation, the main folks running the show are wildlife biologists. That's great. Those are the people we want to decide what is best for our wildlife. However, they know animals. They don't know people. Because of this there are many times where their policies cause some massive backlash because they aren't taking into account the human element. This is why there is a push for increasing the number of social scientists to get involved in wildlife conservation so that they can help navigate those issues.

This is what we see with the complexities in many arenas of government. I'm not going to dispute these complexities. After all, I have a degree in the field of public policy simply because it is a complex thing. But having that background, I also know there are many ways to simplify things that of government doesn't do for many reasons.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: Her tweet there was asinine.  You didn't really want a serious response to such a stupid comment as "The 1% get richer while everyone works 3 jobs and is on food stamps!" did you?  That is not a data driven comment.  

There are people taking advantage of every program out there, and the majority of the money that is taken through these things is taken by the 1%. That is data driven. The amount of money lost by the federal government that is lost through fraud from corporations and wealthy individuals far surpasses any welfare fraud from individuals. The same would continue to be true with UBI.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: A few things here:

1) That's not salary competition, I'm struggling to find the correlation there.  UBI or not, employers will pay employees based upon their skill set, experience, and market rate.  Whether or not they're nice to you has nothing to do with how much they pay you.  What i THINK you're trying to say is with an UBI people have more flexibility to change jobs if they feel stuck.  But guess what!  you can do that now!  If you don't like how your boss is treating you...go find a new job man!  

People really don't have flexibility, though. People aren't likely to leave their job without another one lined up. This is because of salary loss as well as a loss of insurance. It's also difficult to job hunt while employed already and all the while you are dealing with bullshit. There is afar less flexibility there than most people realize. As for the competition, UBI would absolutely create more competition because it generates the need for more of a livable wage to be paid.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: 2) You gotta stop with these sensational comments man.  Nobody is firing you for the color of your shirt unless you work for Coke and are wearing a Pepsi or Dr. Pepper logo. If you want to have a realistic discussion use realistic talking points and not edge cases.   

It doesn't really matter whether the comment was sensational or not. The point was that there aren't protections for people everywhere. The point was that an employer could fire you for the color of your shirt in some places. Not that the would, but that they could because there are no protections to prevent such things.

(01-06-2022, 09:08 PM)basballguy Wrote: Who exactly do you want to have "equality" with?  Me?  A real estate broker?  Elon Musk as you mentioned above?  Lebron James?  Do you even know what you mean by income equality?  And what exactly does income equality have to do with a UBI?  A UBI wouldn't change how much money any of us make.  

Nothing in your reply here is an actual benefit of a UBI

So, you might not understand the idea of income inequality. When we talk about reducing income inequality it isn't about making everyone equal. What it is about is building a healthy economy. I'm going to be terrible at explaining this, and this is probably wrong, but this is how I view it. The natural world tends to work in a normal distribution, or a bell curve if you will. A few at the bottom, a few at the top, and most of it in the middle. The wealth and income distribution in the US is such a severe negative skew that there is almost nothing for the middle class, even. That's income inequality.

So why should we care about this? Through research we know that income inequality reduces quality of life. It increases crime, reduces life expectancy, reduces educational attainment, increases poverty and debt, and reduces civic involvement. It causes internal conflict and political instability. The populist movements that drove the rise of Trump and are driving the socialist movement on the left are a direct result of economic inequality. And last, but certainly not least, it reduces social mobility. What that means is that it kills the "American dream." With severe economic inequality it becomes less likely that the "American dream" is attainable because the ability to move up is hindered and oftentimes just blocked.

Those are all things that there is academic, peer reviewed evidence on to support being tied to economic inequality.

[basballguy]

I thought PnR was closed on the weekends lol...and how do you quote like that?

[Belsnickel]

(01-08-2022, 02:35 PM)basballguy Wrote: I thought PnR was closed on the weekends lol...and how do you quote like that?

I do the quick reply and copy the script that precedes your text. Kind of hard to explain without showing it.

[jmccracky]

(01-08-2022, 02:06 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Amen.

We all want that.  However, government has no compelling reason to do so.  Why would power be given to the likes of you or me when it can be given to the likes of Big Pharma?  Big Pharma is making billions with their sweetheart “deal” with the government to avoid lawsuits and prosecution.

Thanks for the reply man. Yeah, I will say that Big Pharma is outta control. Although I'm for Universal Healthcare, the ACA is just not my bag. 

[basballguy]

(01-08-2022, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Which is why the tweets were intended as an effort to get into a more in depth discussion. UBI is intended as a safety net. The idea that "we shouldn't have to work" is that life is an unalienable right. Requiring employment to be able to live is contradictory to that idea. So if something happens, UBI is there to ensure a citizen has the ability to live if they find themselves unemployed.

Ok two things here....well 3....

1) Now that I'm using quoting blocks correctly, my talking points are 10% stronger.

2) I think you are getting hung up on the word employment.  Every single one of us has to do something to ensure our own survival...for us employment does this as it allows us to generate income to feed ourselves/families/etc.  It spans every species.  It sounds like this is more your area but part of this "right to life" is an obligation to survive and it rings true for probably most species.  You can have this life, but what are you personally going to do in order to survive now that you have this life?  Again, until we achieve a bliss where everything is automated in our lives, we will need to "work" to survive.  It's a wonderful idea, but not practical.  

3) You are now describing unemployment, disability, and social security benefits now.  Why not focus on improving those programs if it doesn't fit the mold?  

We live in a wonderful country where if you don't want to work...well then don't work.  But don't expect someone to become responsible for your survival.  If life is an unalienable right, then you can't possibly believe it's also your right to have someone else provide for you.  Get yourself a plot of land and live off it.  Plenty of people do it and will testify they're living their greatest life.  

(01-08-2022, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, here is where my knowledge and education comes in as a policy wonk. Sure, there are countless financial studies done by people far more educated and you and I that have come up with plans that work the best they can for us. Guess what, though. We aren't utilizing them. Our social safety net is a failure, and I have never met a wonk in that specialty that would say otherwise. In so many measures that are used by these folks, the US falls far behind our WEIRD brethren. Here is also another little secret, there are UBI policies that these folks have come up with that would work far better than what we have. The reason we don't have them has nothing at all to do with their efficacy or their cost. It has to do with our politicians being too conservative and with the deadlocks in Congress that prevent any real progress which is a result of our broken system that is not truly representative of our country's citizens.

What do you mean we aren't using them?  What policies aren't we using?  What studies say "We have these benefits but we aren't using them".  If anything you should be arguing they aren't doing enough.  "Social Security is going to run out before X age group retires!", "Covid relief funds for SMB owners has dried up faster than expected", "Record number of Americans file for unemployment"....those are the actual headlines.  Without having to do a lick of research I can tell you they're being utilized.  I'd be happy to talk about more precise examples if you have any.  

I have also personally in my life: taken advantage of food stamps (PSA: don't have kids in high school), leveraged obscure state government program for child custody legal process, helped an ex get on housing assistance, reap the benefits are a multitude of tax credits every year due to my income/dependents at the time, and more if i think.  I watched my daughter somehow get 800 bucks a week in unemployment during Covid when Taco Bell closed down...WTF was that lol?  The programs are there and we use them.  Maybe you don't?  

Whether or not a UBI is ever done has nothing to do with politicians being too conservative.   If you ever sit down and talk with a so-called conservative...or listen to them....You'll find they don't give a flying **** what you want to do.  If you can make it work financially without negatively impacting others around you...well knock yourself out.  Once you get past the personal emotions of a UBI it all comes down to the same questions:

1) How are you going to pay for it?

2) If everyone in the country decided to stop working because the UBI was just too dang great, who's going to step in and perform those duties of essential services?

(01-08-2022, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Look, I'm a bureaucrat. I love red tape as much as the next wonky paper pusher. However, far too often we have policies and regulations put in place that alter something and there isn't enough effort put into it to figure out the way it can translate best to the public.


I'll give you a "for instance" that is unrelated but highlights how things go awry. In wildlife conservation, the main folks running the show are wildlife biologists. That's great. Those are the people we want to decide what is best for our wildlife. However, they know animals. They don't know people. Because of this there are many times where their policies cause some massive backlash because they aren't taking into account the human element. This is why there is a push for increasing the number of social scientists to get involved in wildlife conservation so that they can help navigate those issues.

This is what we see with the complexities in many arenas of government. I'm not going to dispute these complexities. After all, I have a degree in the field of public policy simply because it is a complex thing. But having that background, I also know there are many ways to simplify things that of government doesn't do for many reasons.

This also extends to all aspects of life.  This is literally why customer service reps exist...to bridge the gap between the end user and the business (or in this case government and citizen).  So what you're saying is there should be more done to bridge this gap.  You'll hear no argument from me there...consumers are always evolving....but creating a new program doesn't solve this problem...it just introduces a new program.  

(01-08-2022, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: People really don't have flexibility, though. People aren't likely to leave their job without another one lined up. This is because of salary loss as well as a loss of insurance. It's also difficult to job hunt while employed already and all the while you are dealing with bullshit. There is afar less flexibility there than most people realize. As for the competition, UBI would absolutely create more competition because it generates the need for more of a livable wage to be paid.

Some more points here: 


1) "Americans are quitting jobs at record rates" is literally a headline in our current events and we don't even have a UBI.  People are starting to realize they in fact are in control of their own lives.  

2) My daughter literally got job via text message last year.  If anything changing jobs is easier now than it has ever been.  

3) As a hiring manager, why would I care about a UBI?  If everyone has one I don't have to compete with it.  If you lose it when you come to work for me then yes, I should probably consider it.  But there's no way it factors into a salary decision of a hiring manager.  

(01-08-2022, 02:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you might not understand the idea of income inequality. When we talk about reducing income inequality it isn't about making everyone equal. What it is about is building a healthy economy. I'm going to be terrible at explaining this, and this is probably wrong, but this is how I view it. The natural world tends to work in a normal distribution, or a bell curve if you will. A few at the bottom, a few at the top, and most of it in the middle. The wealth and income distribution in the US is such a severe negative skew that there is almost nothing for the middle class, even. That's income inequality.



So why should we care about this? Through research we know that income inequality reduces quality of life. It increases crime, reduces life expectancy, reduces educational attainment, increases poverty and debt, and reduces civic involvement. It causes internal conflict and political instability. The populist movements that drove the rise of Trump and are driving the socialist movement on the left are a direct result of economic inequality. And last, but certainly not least, it reduces social mobility. What that means is that it kills the "American dream." With severe economic inequality it becomes less likely that the "American dream" is attainable because the ability to move up is hindered and oftentimes just blocked.

Those are all things that there is academic, peer reviewed evidence on to support being tied to economic inequality.

Ok rather than try to argue the merits of income equality (that can be it's own thread).  I'll ask a simple question.  How does giving everyone the same amount of $$$ via a UBI all of a sudden close this inequality gap?  If I have 200 bucks and you have 50...then we both get 100 bucks.....I still have 150 bucks more than you.  We also just infused a shit ton of money into circulation which means we will see some inflation offestting this new money.  I know that's an oversimplified example.



Nobody will argue (most) crime would not happen if everyone was rich.  Poverty and crime do have a direct correlation....but again there are programs out there today

Government has been around for 5000 years....if there was a better idea we would've thought of it already.  I'll support reform all the way, but i'm still not seeing how a universal basic income fixes any of these problems.  

[Belsnickel]

(01-08-2022, 05:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: Ok two things here....well 3....

1) Now that I'm using quoting blocks correctly, my talking points are 10% stronger.

2) I think you are getting hung up on the word employment.  Every single one of us has to do something to ensure our own survival...for us employment does this as it allows us to generate income to feed ourselves/families/etc.  It spans every species.  It sounds like this is more your area but part of this "right to life" is an obligation to survive and it rings true for probably most species.  You can have this life, but what are you personally going to do in order to survive now that you have this life?  Again, until we achieve a bliss where everything is automated in our lives, we will need to "work" to survive.  It's a wonderful idea, but not practical.  

3) You are now describing unemployment, disability, and social security benefits now.  Why not focus on improving those programs if it doesn't fit the mold?  

We live in a wonderful country where if you don't want to work...well then don't work.  But don't expect someone to become responsible for your survival.  If life is an unalienable right, then you can't possibly believe it's also your right to have someone else provide for you.  Get yourself a plot of land and live off it.  Plenty of people do it and will testify they're living their greatest life.  


What do you mean we aren't using them?  What policies aren't we using?  What studies say "We have these benefits but we aren't using them".  If anything you should be arguing they aren't doing enough.  "Social Security is going to run out before X age group retires!", "Covid relief funds for SMB owners has dried up faster than expected", "Record number of Americans file for unemployment"....those are the actual headlines.  Without having to do a lick of research I can tell you they're being utilized.  I'd be happy to talk about more precise examples if you have any.  

I have also personally in my life: taken advantage of food stamps (PSA: don't have kids in high school), leveraged obscure state government program for child custody legal process, helped an ex get on housing assistance, reap the benefits are a multitude of tax credits every year due to my income/dependents at the time, and more if i think.  I watched my daughter somehow get 800 bucks a week in unemployment during Covid when Taco Bell closed down...WTF was that lol?  The programs are there and we use them.  Maybe you don't?  

Whether or not a UBI is ever done has nothing to do with politicians being too conservative.   If you ever sit down and talk with a so-called conservative...or listen to them....You'll find they don't give a flying **** what you want to do.  If you can make it work financially without negatively impacting others around you...well knock yourself out.  Once you get past the personal emotions of a UBI it all comes down to the same questions:

1) How are you going to pay for it?

2) If everyone in the country decided to stop working because the UBI was just too dang great, who's going to step in and perform those duties of essential services?


This also extends to all aspects of life.  This is literally why customer service reps exist...to bridge the gap between the end user and the business (or in this case government and citizen).  So what you're saying is there should be more done to bridge this gap.  You'll hear no argument from me there...consumers are always evolving....but creating a new program doesn't solve this problem...it just introduces a new program.  


Some more points here: 


1) "Americans are quitting jobs at record rates" is literally a headline in our current events and we don't even have a UBI.  People are starting to realize they in fact are in control of their own lives.  

2) My daughter literally got job via text message last year.  If anything changing jobs is easier now than it has ever been.  

3) As a hiring manager, why would I care about a UBI?  If everyone has one I don't have to compete with it.  If you lose it when you come to work for me then yes, I should probably consider it.  But there's no way it factors into a salary decision of a hiring manager.  



Ok rather than try to argue the merits of income equality (that can be it's own thread).  I'll ask a simple question.  How does giving everyone the same amount of $$$ via a UBI all of a sudden close this inequality gap?  If I have 200 bucks and you have 50...then we both get 100 bucks.....I still have 150 bucks more than you.  We also just infused a shit ton of money into circulation which means we will see some inflation offestting this new money.  I know that's an oversimplified example.



Nobody will argue (most) crime would not happen if everyone was rich.  Poverty and crime do have a direct correlation....but again there are programs out there today

Government has been around for 5000 years....if there was a better idea we would've thought of it already.  I'll support reform all the way, but i'm still not seeing how a universal basic income fixes any of these problems.  

I was going to do a broken down, point-by-point response, but I'm back at work after vacation and a week of snow days, so I ain't got time for that right now. I also didn't want to let this go unresponded to, though. So here are just a couple of my retorts without digging into the research.

1. Yes, we have programs. No, they aren't doing enough and they aren't being utilized as much as they should be. This is for a number of reasons. The benefit of UBI is it is universal. It replaces other programs making one blanket program for all that is easier to navigate because you really don't have to file anything for it. Some models utilize your tax return to make any adjustments/claims that may be needed.

2. When I say there are policies that have been written up by experts I mean that policy analysts have come up with policies that would potentially solve these issues. They reduce homelessness, poverty, all the fun stuff we are talking about in here. However, because they aren't politically viable in today's climate they will never see the floor of a legislative body. These policies aren't in place, but they are written up in white papers, draft legislation, etc. They consider how to pay for them and they consider the abuses to the system. The issue is because the American polity is too conservative for these things and we are stuck in the imperialistic Cold War rhetoric that equates anything to the left of center as "communist" and therefore "bad."

3. UBI is wealth redistribution. I don't hide that fact. It moves money from the top income earners and wealth holders and redistributes it to the lower levels. That's what social policies tend to do. The nuts and bolts of the policy would have mechanisms that mean if you don't need the UBI, then you're paying it back or not getting it at all (that difference depends on the model). It is through those mechanisms that it helps close the economic inequality gaps that exist.

There is a lot more to UBI. It's a complex idea that has a lot of different facets but once in place it simplifies the social safety net for the general public.

If anyone is interested, here is a folder with some research in it that I pulled up. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1z4ngHuIT0UXerE6zlx6tDxX5vyoNMrFX?usp=sharing

Most of this is stuff that is behind a paywall, so I've downloaded it to share. Mostly because I know the authors would like that even if the journals this stuff came from wouldn't.

[basballguy]

(01-10-2022, 09:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was going to do a broken down, point-by-point response, but I'm back at work after vacation and a week of snow days, so I ain't got time for that right now. I also didn't want to let this go unresponded to, though. So here are just a couple of my retorts without digging into the research.

1. Yes, we have programs. No, they aren't doing enough and they aren't being utilized as much as they should be. This is for a number of reasons. The benefit of UBI is it is universal. It replaces other programs making one blanket program for all that is easier to navigate because you really don't have to file anything for it. Some models utilize your tax return to make any adjustments/claims that may be needed.

2. When I say there are policies that have been written up by experts I mean that policy analysts have come up with policies that would potentially solve these issues. They reduce homelessness, poverty, all the fun stuff we are talking about in here. However, because they aren't politically viable in today's climate they will never see the floor of a legislative body. These policies aren't in place, but they are written up in white papers, draft legislation, etc. They consider how to pay for them and they consider the abuses to the system. The issue is because the American polity is too conservative for these things and we are stuck in the imperialistic Cold War rhetoric that equates anything to the left of center as "communist" and therefore "bad."

3. UBI is wealth redistribution. I don't hide that fact. It moves money from the top income earners and wealth holders and redistributes it to the lower levels. That's what social policies tend to do. The nuts and bolts of the policy would have mechanisms that mean if you don't need the UBI, then you're paying it back or not getting it at all (that difference depends on the model). It is through those mechanisms that it helps close the economic inequality gaps that exist.

There is a lot more to UBI. It's a complex idea that has a lot of different facets but once in place it simplifies the social safety net for the general public.

If anyone is interested, here is a folder with some research in it that I pulled up. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1z4ngHuIT0UXerE6zlx6tDxX5vyoNMrFX?usp=sharing

Most of this is stuff that is behind a paywall, so I've downloaded it to share. Mostly because I know the authors would like that even if the journals this stuff came from wouldn't.

I appreciate the conversation but I don't think you and I are getting any further.  I've cited practical examples, personal examples, and examples in the media where one could logically conclude existing programs work and are being utilized.  All you are saying "nu uh, they aren't and we need a UBI".  

Now I could obviously do my own research on UBI's if i wanted to but that entirely defeats the purpose of having a discussion on a message board.  

You created this thread floating the idea of UBI but you've made no real effort to convince me with facts, just perceived opinions.  Your opinions might be fact but I have no way of knowing since you won't provide any details. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-10-2022, 07:30 PM)basballguy Wrote: I appreciate the conversation but I don't think you and I are getting any further.  I've cited practical examples, personal examples, and examples in the media where one could logically conclude existing programs work and are being utilized.  All you are saying "nu uh, they aren't and we need a UBI".  

Now I could obviously do my own research on UBI's if i wanted to but that entirely defeats the purpose of having a discussion on a message board.  

You created this thread floating the idea of UBI but you've made no real effort to convince me with facts, just perceived opinions.  Your opinions might be fact but I have no way of knowing since you won't provide any details. 

You mean, other than the research that I provided a link to in my last post?

You've based your opinions on anecdotal evidence, and I've based mine on experts in the field conducting analyses on the issue that I have provided a link to.

[*Nately120*]

(01-07-2022, 07:30 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Universal Basic Income is the adult version of a ten year old’s allowance from their parents.

My parents were fans of the trickle down method, whereby my allowance stayed in their pockets.