Vice Presidential Debate

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 02:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Obamacare was meant to provide basic health insurance to the uninsured because they weren’t poor enough for Medicaid, but had a job which didn’t provide health insurance benefits or enough salary to afford health insurance.

It would help provide basic health care, it would help prevent bankruptcy due to medical debt, it would prevent insurance caps for coverage, it would provide insurance for pre-existing conditions, etc.

People had to prove to the government they had health insurance or they would have to pay the government if they didn’t. Indigent care and unpaid hospital bills are passed onto the government from hospitals and you and I help subsidize this bad medical debt with our taxes “on the back end”. Basically, you and I are paying their medical bills when they don’t have insurance and they can’t afford to pay. By forcing them to pay the government for not buying health insurance the government was forcing these people to pay at least part of the bad medical debt up front which in turns lessens the amount of bad medical debt you and I have to supplement with our taxes.

People argue it is unconstitutional because the government can’t force people to buy health insurance.  Or pay a tax/penalty for not buying insurance.

Thank you for that explanation.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-09-2020, 03:16 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: And this is why universal, free healthcare, paid out of state taxes in your salary, is the ONLY logical solution. And it's not up for debate, either.

ASS. FRIGGIN'. BACKWARDS.

As a veteran, I was a recipient of socialized medicine while in the Army. I received good care. When my children were born on post I paid $20 (roughly) for the room. If I wanted to go out and get extra care I could go out and pay for it.

But, Republicans use the word “socialism” to instill fear because most people in this forum don’t even know what that means. American Christians are all about helping their fellow man until their taxes go up then **** their fellow man, their fellow man is on their own unless it’s for Defense spending. And even Defense spending should be deficit spending before raising taxes.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 03:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: As a veteran, I was a recipient of socialized medicine while in the Army. I received good care. When my children were born on post I paid $20 (roughly) for the room. If I wanted to go out and get extra care I could go out and pay for it.

But, Republicans use the word “socialism” to instill fear because most people in this forum don’t even know what that means. American Christians are all about helping their fellow man until their taxes go up then **** their fellow man, their fellow man is on their own unless it’s for Defense spending. And even Defense spending should be deficit spending before raising taxes.

Honest question, do you, or anybody who wants to answer, believe citizens tax dollars should pay for illegals health care or any other tax funded benefit?  If so, why is that fair to the citizens who shoulder the tax burden?

[BigPapaKain]

(10-09-2020, 03:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Honest question, do you, or anybody who wants to answer, believe citizens tax dollars should pay for illegals health care or any other tax funded benefit?  If so, why is that fair to the citizens who shoulder the tax burden?

Believe it or not we're already shouldering the tax burden for illegal's health care.

When a hospital puts out a bill that doesn't get paid, the government eats the cost using *drumroll please* tax dollars; usually in the form of tax write offs by the hospital.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-09-2020, 03:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Honest question, do you, or anybody who wants to answer, believe citizens tax dollars should pay for illegals health care or any other tax funded benefit?  If so, why is that fair to the citizens who shoulder the tax burden?

Yeah, even here in Canada, if you don't have a health card, you aren't getting free healthcare.

American lawmakers are not the brightest bulbs, but they're not even THAT stupid; no illegal alien anywhere in the world gets free healthcare, if their country provides it, so I don't know why you brought that up.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-09-2020, 03:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Honest question, do you, or anybody who wants to answer, believe citizens tax dollars should pay for illegals health care or any other tax funded benefit?  If so, why is that fair to the citizens who shoulder the tax burden?

No, I don’t believe we should be giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants.

However, studies by such organizations like the Kaiser Family Foundation indicate the vast majority of the uninsured getting health care subsidized from our tax dollars are American citizens with mostly blue collar jobs whose employers won’t pay a decent enough wage to afford health insurance or offer employer sponsored health insurance. They can’t afford “non-essentials” like health insurance when the have to pay for rent, food, and transportation to their job.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 04:09 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Yeah, even here in Canada, if you don't have a health card, you aren't getting free healthcare.

American lawmakers are not the brightest bulbs, but they're not even THAT stupid; no illegal alien anywhere in the world gets free healthcare, if their country provides it, so I don't know why you brought that up.

I don't know much about healthcare laws.  Maybe I am thinking about it wrong.  As far as I am aware a non private Hospital can not turn down someone for care.  So if that is the only option for an illegal for example, they just go to the ER and when they cannot pay that becomes bad medical debt; which in the end is funded by taxes.  At least I thought that was the jist of what Breech was saying.  I'm open to being wrong.  lol

So really the ER's in the US can be used as free healthcare services for any illegal...?

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 04:19 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: No, I don’t believe we should be giving free healthcare to illegal immigrants.

However, studies by such organizations like the Kaiser Family Foundation indicate the vast majority of the uninsured getting health care subsidized from our tax dollars are American citizens with mostly blue collar jobs whose employers won’t pay a decent enough wage to afford health insurance or offer employer sponsored health insurance. They can’t afford “non-essentials” like health insurance when the have to pay for rent, food, and transportation to their job.

I cannot dispute any of this.

But with the illegal immigration population estimated at anywhere from 10-15M they have to get healthcare services somehow.

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2020, 04:09 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Yeah, even here in Canada, if you don't have a health card, you aren't getting free healthcare.

American lawmakers are not the brightest bulbs, but they're not even THAT stupid; no illegal alien anywhere in the world gets free healthcare, if their country provides it, so I don't know why you brought that up.

Didn't we recently have a thread that talked about the healthcare illegal immigrants received at detention centers?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-09-2020, 04:38 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I don't know much about healthcare laws.  Maybe I am thinking about it wrong.  As far as I am aware a non private Hospital can not turn down someone for care.  So if that is the only option for an illegal for example, they just go to the ER and when they cannot pay that becomes bad medical debt; which in the end is funded by taxes.  At least I thought that was the jist of what Breech was saying.  I'm open to being wrong.  lol

So really the ER's in the US can be used as free healthcare services for any illegal...?

You’re referring to EMTALA.

https://www.acep.org/life-as-a-physician/ethics--legal/emtala/emtala-fact-sheet/

EMTALA guarantees you will receive a screening medical exam to determine if you have an emergency. If you don’t have an emergency, the hospital isn’t obligated to provide any further care.

If you come into the ER for high blood pressure and your BP is normal that’s the end of your screening exam. You do not have a life threatening condition that requires stabilization and treatment. We’re done. Buh-bye.

But, if you come in with chest pain, you’re probably gonna get the million dollar work up that rules out a life threatening condition without a definitive diagnosis and told to follow up with a cardiologist to complete the work (which if you don’t have insurance you’re not going to that appointment.)

And, yeah, there are an estimated 10-15 illegal immigrants, but when Obamacare was passed there was five times that number of uninsured Americans. And there aren’t 10-15 million illegals with 10-15 million medical emergencies every year which is why the vast majority of people getting “free” health care at the ER are poor American citizens with a job and the data supports that conclusion.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-09-2020, 04:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Didn't we recently have a thread that talked about the healthcare illegal immigrants received at detention centers?

They are in our custody. Enemy prisoners of war get “free” medical care because they are our responsibility while in our custody. They aren’t walking in and out of the ER whenever they have the sniffles.

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 05:22 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re referring to EMTALA.

https://www.acep.org/life-as-a-physician/ethics--legal/emtala/emtala-fact-sheet/

EMTALA guarantees you will receive a screening medical exam to determine if you have an emergency. If you don’t have an emergency, the hospital isn’t obligated to provide any further care.

If you come into the ER for high blood pressure and your BP is normal that’s the end of your screening exam. You do not have a life threatening condition that requires stabilization and treatment. We’re done. Buh-bye.

But, if you come in with chest pain, you’re probably gonna get the million dollar work up that rules out a life threatening condition without a definitive diagnosis and told to follow up with a cardiologist to complete the work (which if you don’t have insurance you’re not going to that appointment.)

And, yeah, there are an estimated 10-15 illegal immigrants, but when Obamacare was passed there was five times that number of uninsured Americans. And there aren’t 10-15 million illegals with 10-15 million medical emergencies every year which is why the vast majority of people getting “free” health care at the ER are poor American citizens with a job and the data supports that conclusion.

Thank you for the explanation.

[BmorePat87]

(10-09-2020, 01:36 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: The stereotype is about a certain behavior.  I used that stereotype, which denotes a certain behavior, as a descriptor of how I thought Harris was acting at times.  I didn't use it because of Harris' skin color; I used it because of how I viewed her behavior.

Again, what's the problem?

If you're choosing "angry black woman talk to the hand" for a black woman and "white trash" for a white woman, as you said, then the stereotype is about their race. 

This stupid exercise in owning up to stupid racist stereotypes aside, I also pointed to the fact that her behavior wasn't remotely close to how you characterized her, and it in itself was playing on old stereotypes of black women being angry if they're confident and assertive, as we saw with Pence trying to steam roll her and the moderator. 

There's honestly little reason to continue this conversation. Your response is absolutely rooted in her race. "Angry black woman talk to the hand" is clear. That's why only the most unhinged person has tried to defend it. 

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 06:25 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: If you're choosing "angry black woman talk to the hand" for a black woman and "white trash" for a white woman, as you said, then the stereotype is about their race. 

This stupid exercise in owning up to stupid racist stereotypes aside, I also pointed to the fact that her behavior wasn't remotely close to how you characterized her, and it in itself was playing on old stereotypes of black women being angry if they're confident and assertive, as we saw with Pence trying to steam roll her and the moderator. 

There's honestly little reason to continue this conversation. Your response is absolutely rooted in her race. "Angry black woman talk to the hand" is clear. That's why only the most unhinged person has tried to defend it. 

You are wrong.   

We have different opinions on her behavior.

Pence didn't try to steam roll her.

Sorry.

[BmorePat87]

(10-09-2020, 11:20 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: You are wrong.   

We have different opinions on her behavior.

Pence didn't try to steam roll her.

Sorry.

We do have a different opinion on her behavior. I do not think she's a racial stereotype. 

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 11:30 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: We do have a different opinion on her behavior. I do not think she's a racial stereotype. 

Perfectly fair.

[*bfine32*]

(10-09-2020, 11:20 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: You are wrong.   

We have different opinions on her behavior.

Pence didn't try to steam roll her.

Sorry.

Pence should have hit her with: "What are your thoughts on Willie Brown"

[Mickeypoo]

(10-09-2020, 11:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pence should have hit her with: "What are your thoughts on Willie Brown"

That would have made for an interesting moment.

She didn't even get the Abe Lincoln info correct that she tried to throw in Pence face.

[BmorePat87]

[*PhilHos*]

(10-09-2020, 11:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pence should have hit her with: "What are your thoughts on Willie Brown"

Pence should have told her something like, "Well, I didn't join the campaign of someone I believed to be a racist and sexual predator."