Violence at Israeli-Gazan Border

[StLucieBengal]

(05-17-2018, 09:15 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm saying our good ally Israel lies to us to get us to do their dirty work.  And has since 1967.

That does not defend what anyone else has done or does.  As the discussion is about Israel and their policies.

So because you hate Israel and feel slighted by them. You are willing to stand shoulder to shoulder and team up with Hamas?

Hamas who has made no bones about wanting to kill as many Jews as possible, flying swastikas, paying women and childrento attend their riot using them as shields. heck the Palestinians even have a barber shop called hitler, and it’s of course the most popular.

You talk about being against nazi’s but when Hamas actually does nazi things and expresses their desire to kill all the Jews, you seem to be ok with them. Instead of being against nazi’s maybe you are just Antisemitic.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-17-2018, 09:15 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm saying our good ally Israel lies to us to get us to do their dirty work.  And has since 1967.

That does not defend what anyone else has done or does.  As the discussion is about Israel and their policies.

But it does directly matter as the discussion is on the violence taking pace between Israel and Hamas.  When you intimate, as you clearly did, that Israel is untrustworthy and prone to subterfuge you, by direct implication, cast doubt on their version of events on the Gaza border.  So, when I ask if you find them less credible than a known terrorist organization I am speaking directly to the topic at hand.  Thus, I will reiterate, do you find Hamas to be a more credible source of information than the state of Israel?

[GMDino]

(05-17-2018, 10:45 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But it does directly matter as the discussion is on the violence taking pace between Israel and Hamas.  When you intimate, as you clearly did, that Israel is untrustworthy and prone to subterfuge you, by direct implication, cast doubt on their version of events on the Gaza border.  So, when I ask if you find them less credible than a known terrorist organization I am speaking directly to the topic at hand.  Thus, I will reiterate, do you find Hamas to be a more credible source of information than the state of Israel?

Why so formal?  I thought we were friends.

However "thus I will answer": I do not find either to be a " more credible source".  I have more examples of Israel lying to the US to get their money and dirty work done which is what is being discussed in this thread about Israel. 

I'll add that a man (who claims to be much smarter and popular than me...and that may be true) once said that we can not "implicate" that someone supports something simply because they do not verbally (written in this case) oppose it while discussing opposing something else. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-17-2018, 10:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: However "thus I will answer": I do not find either to be a " more credible source".  I have more examples of Israel lying to the US to get their money and dirty work done which is what is being discussed in this thread about Israel.

Actually, the thread is about the violence on the Israel/Gaza border.  I will refer you to the thread title for further confirmation.  This being the case the thread is as much about Hamas as it is about Israel, as they are currently responsible for the violence that this thread is directly addressing.  In any event, you just stated that a known terrorist organization, one that uses women and children as human shields, is as credible as the only democracy in the region.  Thus, I believe we can safely consign your opinion to that of radical irrelevancy.   

Quote:I'll add that a man (who claims to be much smarter and popular than me...and that may be true) once said that we can not "implicate" that someone supports something simply because they do not verbally (written in this case) oppose it while discussing opposing something else. 

Very true.  Unfortunately for you, you just directly stated your opinion on this matter, so nothing need be inferred by your silence. 

[GMDino]

(05-17-2018, 10:55 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, the thread is about the violence on the Israel/Gaza border.  I will refer you to the thread title for further confirmation.  This being the case the thread is as much about Hamas as it is about Israel, as they are currently responsible for the violence that this thread is directly addressing.  In any event, you just stated that a known terrorist organization, one that uses women and children as human shields, is as credible as the only democracy in the region.  Thus, I believe we can safely consign your opinion to that of radical irrelevancy. 

Aye. People protesting (even throwing rocks) are just asking for snipers to kill 100 or so of them. And to EXPECT tear gas on a camp hundreds of yards away with women and children in it.

Dam you Hammas for forcing Israel to shoot you in a barrel!   

(05-17-2018, 10:55 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Very true.  Unfortunately for you, you just directly stated your opinion on this matter, so nothing need be inferred by your silence. 

Well I'm not afraid to state my opinion rather than try to word-salad them so I can never ever be said to have said something wrong. Criticizing one thing doesn't mean you are critical of another...even as they oppose each other (Israel/Hamas).

One could be critical of the radical acts of BLM against the police and be critical of dirty police officers.

That's why I'm not popular with people or a certain "type" or "ilk"...I tend be fairly critical and people don't want what THEY support to be criticized.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-17-2018, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Aye. People protesting (even throwing rocks) are just asking for snipers to kill 100 or so of them. And to EXPECT tear gas on a camp hundreds of yards away with women and children in it.

Dam you Hammas for forcing Israel to shoot you in a barrel!   



Well I'm not afraid to state my opinion rather than try to word-salad them so I can never ever be said to have said something wrong. Criticizing one thing doesn't mean you are critical of another...even as they oppose each other (Israel/Hamas).

One could be critical of the radical acts of BLM against the police and be critical of dirty police officers.

That's why I'm not popular with people or a certain "type" or "ilk"...I tend be fairly critical and people don't want what THEY support to be criticized.

That’s not even close to what happened. Even Hamas has said that didn’t happen. Hate Israel all you wish, but at least attempt to be honest on this topic. You jumped the anti Israel gun along with the rest of the western media who wish to shame anyone who supports Israel. Unfortunately for you Hamas is readily admitting what they are doing. Israel didn’t pay Palestinians to attend the riot. Israel didn’t tell children to rush the wall ahead of the Hamas soldiers.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-17-2018, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Aye.  People protesting (even throwing rocks) are just asking for snipers to kill 100 or so of them.  And to EXPECT tear gas on a camp hundreds of yards away with women and children in it.

Dam you Hammas for forcing Israel to shoot you in a barrel!   

I believe the people who were shot were trying to breach the border.  If you believe the Israeli's over a terrorist organization that is.  As to the camp of women and children, one would again have to take the word of a terrorist organization over Israel.  It also begs the question, why would anyone bring women and children to a protest that is planned to be violent?  Would you bring your wife or child to an event you knew was going to be violent?

Quote:Well I'm not afraid to state my opinion rather than try to word-salad them so I can never ever be said to have said something wrong.  Criticizing one thing doesn't mean you are critical of another...even as they oppose each other (Israel/Hamas).

You mean stating your opinion like when you're asked if you believe Bill Clinton's accusers?  Yes, you are quite brave when it comes to stating your opinion and answering direct questions.

Quote:One could be critical of the radical acts of BLM against the police and be critical of dirty police officers.

Most definitely.  It's when you make remarks to the extent that we know suspects cooperated because they weren't beaten or killed that your mask slips a bit.  Or a lot I should say.

Quote:That's why I'm not popular with people or a certain "type" or "ilk"...I tend be fairly critical and people don't want what THEY support to be criticized.

No, you're not popular outside your little group because you are deliberately untruthful and frequently dodge direct questions.  You've also taken up your buddy Fred's penchant for deliberately twisting the words of others.  You go on thinking of yourself as a crusader for truth though, you clearly need it.

[GMDino]

(05-17-2018, 11:23 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I believe the people who were shot were trying to breach the border.  If you believe the Israeli's over a terrorist organization that is.  As to the camp of women and children, one would again have to take the word of a terrorist organization over Israel.  It also begs the question, why would anyone bring women and children to a protest that is planned to be violent?  Would you bring your wife or child to an event you knew was going to be violent?

I took the word of a person that Lucy cited also. I believe he is a journalist.

But if I went to a protest and my family supported it, yes, they would be there. I suppose they should have known that the Israelis would open fire though as that is their goto for any protest. However the tear gas was not be dropped near the border.

(05-17-2018, 11:23 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You mean stating your opinion like when you're asked if you believe Bill Clinton's accusers?  Yes, you are quite brave when it comes to stating your opinion and answering direct questions.

Oh. Were you serious when you asked that like 100 times? And you still remember it? Cool.

(05-17-2018, 11:23 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Most definitely.  It's when you make remarks to the extent that we know suspects cooperated because they weren't beaten or killed that your mask slips a bit.  Or a lot I should say.

You took my statement completely out of context. I referenced the "do as the officer says and no one gets hurt" crowd.

(05-17-2018, 11:23 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, you're not popular outside your little group because you are deliberately untruthful and frequently dodge direct questions.  You've also taken up your buddy Fred's penchant for deliberately twisting the words of others.  You go on thinking of yourself as a crusader for truth though, you clearly need it.

I consider myself...me. I don't claim to know the truth about anyone else on this board unless I interact within outside of the board. I post things I am interested in discussing or I think will make for good back and forths on the board. If people agree that's good. If people disagree we're going to have a back and forth to find out why. As you are WELL aware I will admit when I am wrong.

Popularity is not my goal. Nor is being a "crusader". It's a politics and religion sub section on a sports board. It's fun to discuss and even argue occasionally. I just don't take it personally. I consider it fortunate to even HAVE a place to post such things and discuss such things. It's a good way to get input from a cross-section of America (and beyond) with different opinions and people with different backgrounds and sources. No one is going to save the world here. Very few people have minds changed here. But the intellectual exchanges make the occasional foray into personal attacks and offtopic rants more than worth it.

In short...it's fun.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-17-2018, 11:35 AM)GMDino Wrote: I took the word of a person that Lucy cited also.  I believe he is a journalist.

A journalist with unfettered access or a journalist brought to a cite after the events occurred?

Quote:But if I went to a protest and my family supported it, yes, they would be there.  I suppose they should have known that the Israelis would open fire though as that is their goto for any protest.  However the tear gas was not be dropped near the border.

You didn't answer the question.  Would you take your family to a protest you knew was going to be violent.  Hamas planned violence, this was well known.  Would you take your family to such an event?

Quote:Oh.  Were you serious when you asked that like 100 times?  And you still remember it?  Cool.

I would only have needed to ask it once if you'd sacked up and answered it.

Quote:You took my statement completely out of context.  I referenced the "do as the officer says and no one gets hurt" crowd.  

Ohhh, a rather unclear point at the time, and one you failed to actually explain in the thread.

Quote:I consider myself...me.  I don't claim to know the truth about anyone else on this board unless I interact within outside of the board. I post things I am interested in discussing or I think will make for good back and forths on the board.  If people agree that's good.  If people disagree we're going to have a back and forth to find out why.  As you are WELL aware I will admit when I am wrong.  

Popularity is not my goal.  Nor is being a "crusader".  It's a politics and religion sub section on a sports board.  It's fun to discuss and even argue occasionally.  I just don't take it personally. I consider it fortunate to even HAVE a place to post such things and discuss such things.  It's a good way to get input from a cross-section of America (and beyond) with different opinions and people with different backgrounds and sources.  No one is going to save the world here.  Very few people have minds changed here.  But the intellectual exchanges make the occasional foray into personal attacks and offtopic rants more than worth it.

In short...it's fun.  

Cool.  I largely agree.  Now, if you could only take out the disingenuous parts of your posting habits we'd probably be doing very well.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-17-2018, 11:35 AM)GMDino Wrote: I took the word of a person that Lucy cited also. I believe he is a journalist.

But if I went to a protest and my family supported it, yes, they would be there. I suppose they should have known that the Israelis would open fire though as that is their goto for any protest. However the tear gas was not be dropped near the border.

1. Then go to Gaza and sit on riot hill with the family, hamas is paying $200 a head, $500 is you get injured, and $3000 if you die. Stop off and get a haircut at hitler’s.

2. They opened fire because hamas sent children to set fire to tires to creste a black wall of smoke so hamas soldiers could run up and cut through the fence. The IDF fires because they know what hamas is doing after years of these shenanigans. 60 shot, 52 were hamas. Not bad by the IDF all things considered.


All my snark aside..... it’s cool to question Israel. They need to be questioned. This time is was just blatant.

[Dill]

(05-15-2018, 10:45 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Israeli controlled areas allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites.   Muslim controlled areas do not allow other religions to be practiced at holy sites.

I am coming late to this. Maybe someone has already addressed this. Still--

There are 50,000 Christians in the Palestinian territories. The Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem, where thousands of Christians live and worship. Then there is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, and many others.

Lucy, where do you get your information about what happens in "Muslim controlled" areas of Palestine?

[Dill]

(05-15-2018, 10:36 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Would you support returning the United States to the Indians?  

They lost their land, whether it was fair and square or by hook and crook, they lost it and just because they claim to have owned it long ago doesn’t make them the rightful owners now.    

They can easily live there in peace by being part of Israel. They do not need to bring the terrorists with them.

Lucy, how are you defining "terrorist" here?  Is your definition based upon race or religion, or some other criterion?

[Belsnickel]

Here is a good read on this topic: http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/262329/gaza-media-explainer

It's a very balanced perspective, which is missing from most reporting on the topic.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 01:34 AM)Dill Wrote: I am coming late to this. Maybe someone has already addressed this. Still--

There are 50,000 Christians in the Palestinian territories. The Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem, where thousands of Christians live and worship. Then there is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, and many others.

Lucy, where do you get your information about what happens in "Muslim controlled" areas of Palestine?

Jews can not worship at the Temple Mount. It’s their most holy place yet the Muslims controlling it do not allow.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 01:46 AM)Dill Wrote: Lucy, how are you defining "terrorist" here?  Is your definition based upon race or religion, or some other criterion?

Race or religion? Lol.

[fredtoast]

I don't think we need to do a lot of research to know what happened at the Gaza border. It is the same thing that has been happening for decades. The Palestinians want their land back, and since they are a powerless oppressed people they have to result to terrorist tactics. That is the way it has always worked everywhere for all of history. The people with no power are forced to "fight dirty" until the other side either concedes something or commits genocide.

I am sure most of the people on the border were part of Hamas. But Hamas is not paying people to show up. They don't have to because the Palestinians have been oppressed for decades and are pissed about it. All I have seen posted is proof that they paid the ones that were injured. I don't see anything about people getting paid just to show up, and that is because they don't need to.

So the question is, is Israel going to give back some land or are they just going to resort to genocide? Until one of those things happen nothing is going to change.

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 10:13 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Race or religion?  Lol.

Now Lucy, so far you have been good about responding to questions with real answers. 

We have covered a bit of this ground before, and I must say I do not see a clear definition of terrorism in your use of the term, since you apply it so one-sidedly.  It's ok for Israel to have terrorists leaders and corruption at the highest levels, but it makes Palestinians "animals."

It's ok when Israelis take Palestinian land but totally unfair if they defend their homes--because Israelis will manage the land better.

Guy down the road from me lives in a run down property. If I go there with a gun and drive him and his family out of that property, US law will not side with me on grounds that "Dill will get the property back in shape so its better he has it."  But that seems your criterion for dismissing ethnic cleansing--land is just better off under Israeli control.

So that is why I ask about your definition of terrorism. Is it one which could operate independently of racial, religious or ethnic predetermination?

[Dill]

(05-18-2018, 10:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Jews can not worship at the Temple Mount.  It’s their most holy place yet the Muslims controlling it do not allow.

Again, Lucy, you have been the subject of successful disinformation campaigns. 
Do you understand why accurately informed people refer to the "occupaton" of Palestine?  

The Old City may be in East Jerusalem, but Israeli security controls access to the Temple Mount. It is they who regulate who goes there and what they can do there.  Not "Muslims".

Still, Jews go there all the time, their own security perfectly happy to let them, so long as they don't provoke the occupied population.
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Jewish-visitation-to-Temple-Mount-during-Passover-nearly-doubles-from-2017-549010

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 05:28 PM)Dill Wrote: Now Lucy, so far you have been good about responding to questions with real answers. 

We have covered a bit of this ground before, and I must say I do not see a clear definition of terrorism in your use of the term, since you apply it so one-sidedly.  It's ok for Israel to have terrorists leaders and corruption at the highest levels, but it makes Palestinians "animals."

It's ok when Israelis take Palestinian land but totally unfair if they defend their homes--because Israelis will manage the land better.

Guy down the road from me lives in a run down property. If I go there with a gun and drive him and his family out of that property, US law will not side with me on grounds that "Dill will get the property back in shape so its better he has it."  But that seems your criterion for dismissing ethnic cleansing--land is just better off under Israeli control.

So that is why I ask about your definition of terrorism. Is it one which could operate independently of racial, religious or ethnic predetermination?

Israel is not a terrorist nation. They are not trying to wipe anyone from the planet. If they were we would have been done with this Palestinian nonsense years ago. The Palestinians however want a genocide. Israel is a normal Nation who has used its resources to develop and grow a defense system. Palestinians have wasted their money on enriching their leaders and their families.

I don’t care about their religion or race. If the poor Palestinians wanted peace they would have it today. Instead they want to keep pushing until they just kill all the Jews. They arE by definition terrorists. Which is why I am beyond caring about Palestinians. I wish Israel would wipe them out and put them on the run. The problem is Israel doesn’t want to be forced dealing with the people in There who just love living in shanty towns.

[StLucieBengal]

(05-18-2018, 05:40 PM)Dill Wrote: Again, Lucy, you have been the subject of successful disinformation campaigns. 
Do you understand why accurately informed people refer to the "occupaton" of Palestine?  

The Old City may be in East Jerusalem, but Israeli security controls access to the Temple Mount. It is they who regulate who goes there and what they can do there.  Not "Muslims".

Still, Jews go there all the time, their own security perfectly happy to let them, so long as they don't provoke the occupied population.
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Jewish-visitation-to-Temple-Mount-during-Passover-nearly-doubles-from-2017-549010

This is directly from friends of ours, who live in Israel, she is a childhood friend of my wife’s.

So according to your article... for 4 and a half hours on the intermediate days of a holiday th jews are only allowed to pray at their most holy location.

This is basically what I stated.

Quote:The Temple Mount compound was open for Jewish visitors only on Hol Hamoed (the intermediate days of the holiday), and on these days, only for four and a half hours.

Quote:Arrests are common as non-Muslims are forbidden to pray or to carry out any religious activities on the Mount.