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(02-16-2024, 01:21 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's revelation via compilation. They like the way he governs. They like his political agenda. They like his strongman bravado and have since the Obama administration. The voices that guide conservatives would benefit from gradually introducing plutocratic norms into the USA. They want to put "America first" and stop funding the country he's trying to invade.
Yeah, you're gonna need to provide actual examples of this. Not pundits saying things to generate buzz, actual politicians praising Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.
Quote:Is all this right or wrong? Does it matter? I'm not saying funding the Ukraine is right, I'm saying the political party that has more nice things to say about the aggressive authoritarian that is Putin, wants us to get out of his way, and is headed up by a man who flat out says he'll let him attack other countries being the same one saying they're going to be HARDER on him than the current party they are trashing for throwing too much money against him sounds like a whole lotta who shot john to me.
Again, I will never understand why you, and others, big up Trump statements into something they are not. Trump said he wouldn't defend a NATO member that didn't meet their defense budget target as agreed. This is not analogous to saying he'd let Putin invade NATO nations with impunity. Is it a dumb thing to say, absolutely. Does it give Putin the blank check you and others are stating it is, hell no. I swear you guys are as hyperbolic as Trump when you react to him. It's also completely at odds with the fact that Putin was quiet under Trump. Annexed Crimea under Obama, invaded Ukraine under Biden, didn't do a damned thing under Trump. Or is there some nebulous shadow accomplishment Putin achieved under Trump because Trump loves him so much he'll let him do whatever he wants?
Quote:It doesn't add up, and it probably doesn't add up because the current MAGA GOP wants to fool themselves into thinking they're going to make Putin crawl and kiss Trump's ass. I'm not convinced they're going to be tougher on him, or tough on him at all. Now Trump is Trump so tomorrow he could promise if he's elected that he's going to nuke the kremlin, so I guess I'll keep an open mind that they can become the "tough on Putin" party, but I'm not seeing it and more importantly I don't see Trump or his fanbase wanting to be tough on Putin outside of their usual "I'd totally kick his ass, that's what I do, for serious, I would, totally" BS.
I don't trust them as far as I can throw them, and I'll have you know I'm a genuine pencil-necked geek.
I don't trust any of them, at all, Dem or GOP. I do know what happened with Putin while Trump was POTUS, and what happened under the administrations that preceded and followed him.
Quote:This doesn't apply to what I'm saying, unless Biden and democrats are doing this while simultaneously saying they will keep Hamas in check and Trump and the GOP will let them do whatever they want.
Sorry, but it absolutely does. The refusal to give Ukraine a blank check is consistently used around here to paint the GOP, as a whole, as pro-Putin. Using the exact same logic the same must be said about Dems who don't ant to give Israel a blank check, i.e. they are pro-Hamas. If you dislike this direct comparison then your issue is with the leftists who constantly enable this comparison with their statements.
Quote:tl;dr - people are mistaking Trump being hard on Putin for having a hard on for Putin.
Trump certainly enjoys the idea of the power Putin has in his own nation. That I will not dispute.
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(02-16-2024, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Trump certainly enjoys the idea of the power Putin has in his own nation. That I will not dispute.
Well then let's just agree on this and hope that I'm being too much of an alarmist regarding Trump.
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(02-16-2024, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, you're gonna need to provide actual examples of this. Not pundits saying things to generate buzz, actual politicians praising Putin and his invasion of Ukraine.
Again, I will never understand why you, and others, big up Trump statements into something they are not. Trump said he wouldn't defend a NATO member that didn't meet their defense budget target as agreed. This is not analogous to saying he'd let Putin invade NATO nations with impunity. Is it a dumb thing to say, absolutely. Does it give Putin the blank check you and others are stating it is, hell no. I swear you guys are as hyperbolic as Trump when you react to him. It's also completely at odds with the fact that Putin was quiet under Trump. Annexed Crimea under Obama, invaded Ukraine under Biden, didn't do a damned thing under Trump. Or is there some nebulous shadow accomplishment Putin achieved under Trump because Trump loves him so much he'll let him do whatever he wants?
I don't trust any of them, at all, Dem or GOP. I do know what happened with Putin while Trump was POTUS, and what happened under the administrations that preceded and followed him.
Sorry, but it absolutely does. The refusal to give Ukraine a blank check is consistently used around here to paint the GOP, as a whole, as pro-Putin. Using the exact same logic the same must be said about Dems who don't ant to give Israel a blank check, i.e. they are pro-Hamas. If you dislike this direct comparison then your issue is with the leftists who constantly enable this comparison with their statements.
Trump certainly enjoys the idea of the power Putin has in his own nation. That I will not dispute.
This X 1000
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I take offense to some of the accusations of some of us only saying what the pundits say. I made my statement when I heard what he said. Not CNN,, MSNBC, or Yahoo.
Anyway, the reason the comments alarmed me, is because I feel like we need to be there for our allies. If we don't, then who will be our ally? Russia? Lol. Sorry if this comes off as "leftist" and predictable. But this is my true feeling, and don't mind being wrong about stuffs. I'm here for conversation, not being called out for my opinion....that might align with those on the left or right. Anyway....teach me stuff. If I can return the favor, I will. But I ain't claiming to be the smartest the here. I enjoy reading yalls takes. I truly do. Even if a couple drive me absolutely crazy lol!
I used to be jmccracky. Or Cracky for short.
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(02-16-2024, 02:33 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: This X 1000
Ehh, this seems overly simplistic and hopeful. I remember when 9/11 happened the quick response was "Well, this happened on Bush's watch, so how does having him in office make us safer?" and it really just came down to the idea that when you aren't under attack you need republicans in office and when you are under attack you need republicans in office.
I guess liberals who still insist that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if Al Gore would have been president can still have their unprovable argument.
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(02-16-2024, 05:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ehh, this seems overly simplistic and hopeful. I remember when 9/11 happened the quick response was "Well, this happened on Bush's watch, so how does having him in office make us safer?" and it really just came down to the idea that when you aren't under attack you need republicans in office and when you are under attack you need republicans in office.
I guess liberals who still insist that 9/11 wouldn't have happened if Al Gore would have been president can still have their unprovable argument.
Except this argument isn't unprovable, it's factually indisputable. During both Obama and Biden's terms Russia invaded Ukrainian territory. Under Trump he didn't make a single move of substance. Ascribe whatever reasons for that you choose, but the fact remains.
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(02-16-2024, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except this argument isn't unprovable, it's factually indisputable. During both Obama and Biden's terms Russia invaded Ukrainian territory. Under Trump he didn't make a single move of substance. Ascribe whatever reasons for that you choose, but the fact remains.
Maybe because he was getting everything he wanted from America?
Praise from the POTUS. Press conference with the POTUS standing next to him saying he believes Putin over our intelligence. POTUS willing to blackmail the leader of Ukraine and withhold aid. Invitations to the White House. GOP leaders going and meeting with Russians, the first politicians to do so after annexation of Crimea. That “adoption” meeting in trump tower. Trump pushing to get Russia back in the G7.
You should pay attention to this stuff. Or else when we have a dictator ruling over us and our country is aligned with Chine, Iran, North Korea, and Russia you will be caught off guard.
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(02-16-2024, 07:02 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Maybe because he was getting everything he wanted from America?
Example?
Quote:Praise from the POTUS. Press conference with the POTUS standing next to him saying he believes Putin over our intelligence. POTUS willing to blackmail the leader of Ukraine and withhold aid. Invitations to the White House. GOP leaders going and meeting with Russians, the first politicians to do so after annexation of Crimea. That “adoption” meeting in trump tower. Trump pushing to get Russia back in the G7.
Still waiting on something tangible. You know, tangible like invading another country and annexing their territory. Even if every single thing you listed is true (which it isn't) how did Putin benefit? This isn't a subtle dude, he's a blatantly throw your enemy out of a window dude.
Quote:You should pay attention to this stuff. Or else when we have a dictator ruling over us and our country is aligned with Chine, Iran, North Korea, and Russia you will be caught off guard.
Trump is aligned with Iran? Dear god, you are outright delusional. Seriously, you've lost the plot here my man and are firmly in tinfoil hat territory.
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(02-16-2024, 07:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Example?
Still waiting on something tangible. You know, tangible like invading another country and annexing their territory. Even if every single thing you listed is true (which it isn't) how did Putin benefit? This isn't a subtle dude, he's a blatantly throw your enemy out of a window dude.
Trump is aligned with Iran? Dear god, you are outright delusional. Seriously, you've lost the plot here my man and are firmly in tinfoil hat territory.
What did I list that wasn’t true?
You do realize who Russias current allies are? And the side of the war the GOP doesn’t want to fund so that the other side can win? The current GOP theme is Russia can not lose. So they are siding with the regime propped up by china North Korea and Iran. How else should I view that? Since when do we just let the bad guys win?
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(02-16-2024, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sorry, but it absolutely does. The refusal to give Ukraine a blank check is consistently used around here to paint the GOP, as a whole, as pro-Putin. Using the exact same logic the same must be said about Dems who don't ant to give Israel a blank check, i.e. they are pro-Hamas. If you dislike this direct comparison then your issue is with the leftists who constantly enable this comparison with their statements.
The thing is, we don't give Ukraine a blank check. We condition what we give them; something that isn't done with our aid to Israel.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(02-16-2024, 07:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The thing is, we don't give Ukraine a blank check. We condition what we give them; something that isn't done with our aid to Israel.
Does that distinction actually alter my point?
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(02-16-2024, 07:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Does that distinction actually alter my point?
I would say it does. The mainstream Democratic politicians that are in these conversations are talking about putting the same sorts of conditions on aid to Israel as we put on aid to other countries, including Ukraine, not cutting off the aid. Whereas the mainstream GOP position in the House right now seems to be not sending aid to Ukraine at all.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(02-16-2024, 07:43 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would say it does. The mainstream Democratic politicians that are in these conversations are talking about putting the same sorts of conditions on aid to Israel as we put on aid to other countries, including Ukraine, not cutting off the aid. Whereas the mainstream GOP position in the House right now seems to be not sending aid to Ukraine at all.
If it was only aid with conditions, then sure. But it's not, it's no aid at all.
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/15/foreign-aid-house-democrats-progressives-tensions
Why it matters: Israel has proven a consistent and often highly charged wedge in Democrats' otherwise unified front this congressional session.
What they're saying: Several members of the progressive "Squad" told Axios that they are firmly opposed the bill.
"There's no way I'm voting to send more money for war," said Rep. Cori Bush (D-Mo.).
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said she would "vote no" on the bill.
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) cited the bill's blanket ban on funding for UNRWA, a key Palestinian refugee agency, telling Axios "a lot [of] members find that rather offensive and appalling."
Zoom out: It's not just Squad members who have misgivings Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal told Axios, "I can't vote for aid to Israel."
Jayapal said the conditions on aid to Gaza, including restrictions on UNRWA funding, are also "troubling" and "would be a problem for me."
Rep. Greg Casar (D-Texas) said he is a "supporter of actual defensive capabilities for Israel," but "offensive operations like what's happening in Rafah [are] very hard for me."
"When you're seeing what's happening in Rafah, it's impossible for me to be able to fund something like that," said Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-Ill.).
State of play: House Republicans are refusing to hold a vote
There's some hard "no's" in there, not tied to any conditions. So I reiterate, does that make does member supporters of Hamas?
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(02-16-2024, 07:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If it was only aid with conditions, then sure. But it's not, it's no aid at all.
https://www.axios.com/2024/02/15/foreign-aid-house-democrats-progressives-tensions
Why it matters: Israel has proven a consistent and often highly charged wedge in Democrats' otherwise unified front this congressional session.
What they're saying: Several members of the progressive "Squad" told Axios that they are firmly opposed the bill.
"There's no way I'm voting to send more money for war," said Rep. Cori Bush (D-Mo.).
Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.) said she would "vote no" on the bill.
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) cited the bill's blanket ban on funding for UNRWA, a key Palestinian refugee agency, telling Axios "a lot [of] members find that rather offensive and appalling."
Zoom out: It's not just Squad members who have misgivings Progressive Caucus Chair Pramila Jayapal told Axios, "I can't vote for aid to Israel."
Jayapal said the conditions on aid to Gaza, including restrictions on UNRWA funding, are also "troubling" and "would be a problem for me."
Rep. Greg Casar (D-Texas) said he is a "supporter of actual defensive capabilities for Israel," but "offensive operations like what's happening in Rafah [are] very hard for me."
"When you're seeing what's happening in Rafah, it's impossible for me to be able to fund something like that," said Rep. Delia Ramirez (D-Ill.).
State of play: House Republicans are refusing to hold a vote
There's some hard "no's" in there, not tied to any conditions. So I reiterate, does that make does member supporters of Hamas?
This is why I specified "mainstream Democratic politicians." I knew there would be some extremists in there, but that isn't the majority of those criticizing the aid to Israel right now.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
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(02-16-2024, 08:03 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is why I specified "mainstream Democratic politicians." I knew there would be some extremists in there, but that isn't the majority of those criticizing the aid to Israel right now.
Is it really a mainstream GOP position to stop all aid to Ukraine?
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(02-16-2024, 08:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is it really a mainstream GOP position to stop all aid to Ukraine?
It's what the MAGA wing of the party is going for, which is who is running the show, i.e., the mainstream.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
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Fueled by the pursuit of greatness.
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(02-16-2024, 05:59 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Except this argument isn't unprovable, it's factually indisputable. During both Obama and Biden's terms Russia invaded Ukrainian territory. Under Trump he didn't make a single move of substance. Ascribe whatever reasons for that you choose, but the fact remains.
And yet Trump is talking out of both sides of his arse right now. If I were president Putin wouldn't dare invade anyone but if he does I'll say "tough luck, not helping" to our so called allies when he does.
Bases covered.
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(02-17-2024, 02:33 AM)Nately120 Wrote: And yet Trump is talking out of both sides of his arse right now. If I were president Putin wouldn't dare invade anyone but if he does I'll say "tough luck, not helping" to our so called allies when he does.
Bases covered.
On this you'll get zero argument from me.
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(02-16-2024, 08:48 PM)pally Wrote:
I wonder why Tucker has gone full blown Kremlin propagandist. He just doubles down whenever someone gives him a chance to be reasonable. Hard to tell if they are paying him or if they have some kind of dirt that could cause him harm.
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