#WalkAway

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 12:46 PM)hollodero Wrote: That would be awesome, but I think that cannot possibly happen as long as your "winner takes all" voting system is in place.

Yup. FPTP/winnter-take-all elections prevent any third-party viability. Thankfully, we have one, and maybe a second, state using ranked-choice starting this year. All eyes will be on them.

[Millhouse]

(07-03-2018, 12:01 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Perhaps something like this could result in growth of a viable third party?

The only way a third party can survive in the long term would be to replace one of the two existing main parties. Last time this happened was during the late 1850s when the Republican party displaced the Whig Party which cracked due to various opinions on slavery, and few other reasons.

So if a moderate party was to rise in the coming years and decades, hypothetically, my guess is that the Republican party would be left behind unless they start to change some core attitudes on issues that millennials and the generation after them wont agree with, like with environment and taxes.

[hollodero]

(07-03-2018, 12:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup. FPTP/winnter-take-all elections prevent any third-party viability. Thankfully, we have one, and maybe a second, state using ranked-choice starting this year. All eyes will be on them.

I know about Maine, but what's the second state?

- also, as long as not almost all 50 states are in it, I don't see much change. Voting third party in Maine still can reasonably be percieved as a wasted vote that hurts the main party closer to the voter's heart in nation-wide elections. Even if they'd gain an elector in a presidential race.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 07:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: I know about Maine, but what's the second state?

- also, as long as not almost all 50 states are in it, I don't see much change. Voting third party in Maine still can reasonably be percieved as a wasted vote that hurts the main party closer to the voter's heart in nation-wide elections. Even if they'd gain an elector in a presidential race.

So I just heard rumblings about it coming up in another New England state, but it hasn't happened as of yet.

And you're right that until there are more, it won't make a third-party or any independents truly viable nationwide. But its use in Maine will allow for one to grow in the state and even maybe take a seat in Congress. It also allows for other states to see what goes on in Maine and maybe start a spread of this around the country.

[hollodero]

(07-03-2018, 07:29 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So I just heard rumblings about it coming up in another New England state, but it hasn't happened as of yet.

And you're right that until there are more, it won't make a third-party or any independents truly viable nationwide. But its use in Maine will allow for one to grow in the state and even maybe take a seat in Congress. It also allows for other states to see what goes on in Maine and maybe start a spread of this around the country.

The problem being that the parties in power will have a seldom bipartisan agreement that they don't really want this. Is what I'd figure. I can't really see them being in support of a third party emerging.

And if people ever would care enough to make this a movement, I don't know. Do they? And what caused the Maine exception in the first place? (Asks the guy who's too lazy to do his own research on that.)


Side comment on topic, I just thought it's amazing how conservatives' self-definition often seems to have more to do with liberals than with their own side.
And how in the end it's probably quite similar the other way round. I'm one of these because I sure am not one of those.
You really need more parties. This political landscape is turning into a bipolar disorder.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2018, 10:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: The problem being that the parties in power will have a seldom bipartisan agreement that they don't really want this. Is what I'd figure. I can't really see them being in support of a third party emerging.

This s very true. The biggest push will come from states that allow the public to put a referendum on the ballot by petition. That number isn't even a majority of the states, but if the movement begins with that then there is a possibility for it to take off.

(07-03-2018, 10:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: And if people ever would care enough to make this a movement, I don't know. Do they? And what caused the Maine exception in the first place? (Asks the guy who's too lazy to do his own research on that.)

Maine has a terrible governor. Paul LePage is a Republican and he fits right in with the Trump movement of the party. In 2014, the election was one of those where a third party played a big spoiler. LePage won his second term with less than a majority after already proving himself to be terrible and the state polling more Democrat. This movement was a citizen-initiated referendum, like what I referred to above, that the established politicians tried hard to delay but the courts shot them down and the people turned in another petition with enough signatures to override efforts by elected officials to delay the new law.

(07-03-2018, 10:20 PM)hollodero Wrote: Side comment on topic, I just thought it's amazing how conservatives' self-definition often seems to have more to do with liberals than with their own side.
And how in the end it's probably quite similar the other way round. I'm one of these because I sure am not one of those.
You really need more parties. This political landscape is turning into a bipolar disorder.

I completely agree. Right now, we have two political parties that only have the mission of injecting money into races and winning. They have no real ideological stance. They aren't concerned about the good of the country. We need a system like what exists in some European countries where there are more parties, that have actual platforms that give their members direction. I'm not saying the systems in your area are perfect by any means, but they have proven to be effective at many of the things that our two-party system has failed at.

[*bfine32*]

On election night I said we will spend the next 4-8 years being exactly what we have hated for the past 8. This dude illustrates that better that I could.

WTS, dude didn't say he was "switching sides" he simply says he is walking away from the hate that has infused the liberal agenda. If any liberal wants to assert that it has only affected the fringe left, then I will assert this Message Board and much of the liberals I see in the media are fringe.

To their credit the Minority Leaders in both houses have not been affected by this hatred; they just continue to play the "you're a victim role" and then do nothing about it.

[Belsnickel]

Here is an interesting read about the parties: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democrats-are-wrong-about-republicans-republicans-are-wrong-about-democrats/?src=obsidebar=sb_1

[Belsnickel]

(07-04-2018, 09:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: On election night I said we will spend the next 4-8 years being exactly what we have hated for the past 8. This dude illustrates that better that I could.

WTS, dude didn't say he was "switching sides" he simply says he is walking away from the hate that has infused the liberal agenda. If any liberal wants to assert that it has only affected the fringe left, then I will assert this Message Board and much of the liberals I see in the media are fringe.

To their credit the Minority Leaders in both houses have not been affected by this hatred; they just continue to play the "you're a victim role" and then do nothing about it.

Well, around here you can't be critical of actual policy without being told you're hating the people or you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Not saying those things aren't out there, they just aren't as prevalent as people seem to think.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2018, 08:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Maine has a terrible governor.

Read up on the guy... you're not exaggerating. What a person.
Also, thanks for explaining.

(07-04-2018, 08:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I completely agree. Right now, we have two political parties that only have the mission of injecting money into races and winning.

Well... I don't know if I can blame them. They can either do that or not inject money and lose.
The rules are the problem; and from what I know, one party is way more determined to keep said rules untouched.

(07-04-2018, 08:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: They have no real ideological stance. They aren't concerned about the good of the country.

I don't know if I would go that far. There are differences, e.g. environmental protection/climate change, ACA, abortion, LGBT rights etc.

(07-04-2018, 08:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: We need a system like what exists in some European countries where there are more parties, that have actual platforms that give their members direction. I'm not saying the systems in your area are perfect by any means, but they have proven to be effective at many of the things that our two-party system has failed at.

Not perfect indeed, which actually is a nice way to put it. There's certain advantages, a main one being it's not quite as polarizing. We have left vs. right too, but it still is more nuanced and less defining. Also, I feel like I could vote a party closer to my interests then I could in the US. Which plays its part, I guess, in our higher democracy participation rate. That half of Americans don't vote, even though your politics is way more impactful than the petty subjects our parties can deal with, is quite alarming to me.

As a disadvantage, you can vote for a party that might then form a government with some other party you could not stand. There are many other problems, but I'm actually sure you know about them already, so no need to lose thousands words over it.

Overall however, the US political landscape looks grim. A conservative Austrian (or European) would never start defending objectively horrible guys like Trump or LePage. We have other parties for those folks, and that's good.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2018, 09:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: WTS, dude didn't say he was "switching sides" he simply says he is walking away from the hate that has infused the liberal agenda. If any liberal wants to assert that it has only affected the fringe left, then I will assert this Message Board and much of the liberals I see in the media are fringe.

Really? You percieve all liberals on these boards as primarily hateful?

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2018, 09:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, around here you can't be critical of actual policy without being told you're hating the people or you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Not saying those things aren't out there, they just aren't as prevalent as people seem to think.

Not true as I clearly stated the 2 most powerful Democrats in the Nation have not been affected. I have 0 problem with folks rationally discussing policy; it's when it turns hate filled is when the TDS shows up. For instance this one dude accused MM of cowering in his car when all he was trying to do was avoid a public confrontation.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2018, 09:44 AM)hollodero Wrote: Really? You percieve all liberals on these boards as primarily hateful?

Not all, but quite a few of the regulars. I merely suggested that those filled with hate are not the "fringe". 

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2018, 09:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, around here you can't be critical of actual policy without being told you're hating the people or you have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Not saying those things aren't out there, they just aren't as prevalent as people seem to think.

Not true as I clearly stated the 2 most powerful Democrats in the Nation has not been affected. 

[hollodero]

(07-04-2018, 09:47 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Not all, but quite a few of the regulars. I merely suggested that those filled with hate are not the "fringe". 

I percieve that differently, although sure there are occasional comments that might take things too far. But most don't seem to hate conservatives, I guess most are rather stunned.

I usually take a little issue with painting the other side as the hateful one. One could always do that, and it wouldn't be too hard to do for the right as well. All I need to do is point to the popular site Breitbart, case closed.
Associating republicans with Breitbart would be equally unfair as associating liberals with some comments that overdo it (or with college campusses or whatever Breitbartian left there is.) Both things are "fringe" - thinks me.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2018, 10:01 AM)hollodero Wrote: I percieve that differently, although sure there are occasional comments that might take things too far. But most don't seem to hate conservatives, I guess most are rather stunned.

I usually take a little issue with painting the other side as the hateful one. One could always do that, and it wouldn't be too hard to do for the right as well. All I need to do is point to the popular site Breitbart, case closed.
Associating republicans with Breitbart would be equally unfair as associating liberals with some comments that overdo it (or with college campusses or whatever Breitbartian left there is.) Both things are "fringe" - thinks me.

Obviously perception is in the eye of the beholder and we will be more forgiving of those that have views similar to our own.



BTW, has anyone heard anything from Lucie lately? 

[Belsnickel]

(07-04-2018, 09:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Not true as I clearly stated the 2 most powerful Democrats in the Nation have not been affected. I have 0 problem with folks rationally discussing policy; it's when it turns hate filled is when the TDS shows up. For instance this one dude accused MM of cowering in his car when all he was trying to do was avoid a public confrontation.

My disdain for McConnell predates Trump. And by definition he was cowering. No TDS at all.

[HarleyDog]

(07-02-2018, 04:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I realize that I come off as a Republican/Conservative, but honestly I consider myself an independent.  Truth be told, I even voted for Bill Clinton.  I created this thread in hopes that everyone on here could enjoy a lighthearted look at just how crazy and polar opposite the D's and R's are right now.  I mean, it was a casual Friday and all.

It’s easy to staple someone who disagrees with a certain view as the opposition. Too easy. I, like you, consider myself as an independent as well. I also voted for Clinton. I have voted D or R based on the best BS spewed during the campaigns. I’ve never voted for an independent, but was Very close to voting For Ross Perot until he dropped out and then later re-entered the race in 92.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2018, 10:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Obviously perception is in the eye of the beholder and we will be more forgiving of those that have views similar to our own.

That is certainly true. I do think, however, that I'm quite easily convinced by valid counter-points. But when someone says something negative about Trump, e.g. that he's a pathological liar, I don't see that as a person expressing hatred, but more or less as a statement of fact that can be backed up by literally thousands of examples.

And when the response is something like "Ah, you're just suffering from liberalism and TDS", then yeah that's not a good point. And that has nothing to do with the side I'm on.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2018, 10:57 AM)hollodero Wrote: That is certainly true. I do think, however, that I'm quite easily convinced by valid counter-points. But when someone says something negative about Trump, e.g. that he's a pathological liar, I don't see that as a person expressing hatred, but more or less as a statement of fact that can be backed up by literally thousands of examples.

And when the response is something like "Ah, you're just suffering from liberalism and TDS", then yeah that's not a good point. And that has nothing to do with the side I'm on.

How's bout when folks try to suggest he was the reason behind a man that had a long standing feud with a certain newspaper to the point he suggested they should cease breathing before Trump was even a candidate finally cracks and goes there and kills innocent folks? Is that TDS.

That's just one of many irrational example I can point to. To suggest Trump's Presidency has not cause many to lose a portion of their rational thought (aka TDS) is not a good point.

Not saying you fall prey to this ailment, but let's not pretend like it is not affecting quite a few and it is turning many just like the dude in the OP. Whenever I see folks demonstrating such hatred I realize they are doing exactly the opposite of what they profess; they just cannot see it because hate blinds and emotional folks lose rationality.