Was Ending The Shutdown Honorable?!

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 01:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: ...wait we are worried about the mocking nature of rhetoric towards a guy who mocks people every day? Literally every day! When we hold him accountable for the terrible stuff he tweets out on a daily basis ( mocking, name calling,etc) we can feign shock.

He doesn’t get to play bully and victim.

Whatever happened to "when they go low, we go high?"

I'm am not shocked (feigned of otherwise), that's just hyperbole on your part. I don't however prescribe to the notion that 2 wrongs make a right.

All the leadership are behaving like children (Pelosci, Shurmur, McConnel, Trump) no one said has a monopoly on it.

[BmorePat87]

Everyone who came to the table to agreed to a temporary truce should be applauded for doing the right thing in that moment. Of course, there's still things to be said about the fact that so many families had to struggle, and many will not get money because they were not working. They can't get those hours back.

That doesn't mean that everyone did it for the same reasons. Trump and his administration were losing the perception war. His administration was making the most out of touch comments as polls showed blame increasing for Trump and support dwindling. He also had to face the realization that he couldn't give the SOTU in the House without Pelosi's permission.

Of course, Democrats can also be criticized for making it clear that they have no intention on trying to mend bridges so that they can work out a deal. Gloating isn't necessary. It should have been more of a reflection period, "was this worth it as the cost of our federal workers and their families? We need to be better and work together to put what it important first". You can criticize the wall without mocking Trump.

I think Trump needed a 3 week break from the blame and utter shit show that was millionaires and billionaires in the administration telling working families to suck it up and take out loans. Helps to figure out if the message will work or if you just need to declare a fake emergency and take money away from hurricane victims.

[jj22]

BFritz, he signed a deal he could have signed 35 days ago. How is that honorable and why are you trying to give him credit for it when he could have been signed it?

And why are you excited at the prospects he'll do it again if you cared for these people hurt by the shutdown.

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 01:56 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Everyone who came to the table to agreed to a temporary truce should be applauded for doing the right thing in that moment. Of course, there's still things to be said about the fact that so many families had to struggle, and many will not get money because they were not working. They can't get those hours back.

That doesn't mean that everyone did it for the same reasons. Trump and his administration were losing the perception war. His administration was making the most out of touch comments as polls showed blame increasing for Trump and support dwindling. He also had to face the realization that he couldn't give the SOTU in the House without Pelosi's permission.

Of course, Democrats can also be criticized for making it clear that they have no intention on trying to mend bridges so that they can work out a deal. Gloating isn't necessary. It should have been more of a reflection period, "was this worth it as the cost of our federal workers and their families? We need to be better and work together to put what it important first". You can criticize the wall without mocking Trump.

I think Trump needed a 3 week break from the blame and utter shit show that was millionaires and billionaires in the administration telling working families to suck it up and take out loans. Helps to figure out if the message will work or if you just need to declare a fake emergency and take money away from hurricane victims.

Rational and well thought out response.

[*Nately120*]

(01-28-2019, 01:55 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: So that government employees could get paid so that families aren't suffering.  I kind of thought that that was obviously my point.

What percentage of employees don't get backpay?  

People may not understand the government shutdown and how it effects the economy, but people also don't see how the wall will help the economy in the long run and how it will improve our country.

It's not overwhelming that people are against him on the wall (something like 45% for an 55% opposed the last I saw), and how many people opposed are Democrats who oppose it just because he's Republican or minorities who see it as oppression? I don't know anyone that has been polled.

Ehh, a few things I take from this.  If Trump and his followers care about government employees suffering, why then will they cheer when Trump shuts down the government, once and then again?  Also, we elected Trump because he's the best salesman and negotiator and yet you find it excusable that he can't convince the vast  majority of Americans to support the building of what you see as an essential and money-creating wall? As you describe it, this wall should sell itself, and yet the greatest salesman alive can't get people to buy into it.

I just don't get it.  Maybe he can convince the 45% of people who actually want the wall to pay for it, themselves.  Make it happen, Dealmaster!

[Au165]

(01-28-2019, 01:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Whatever happened to "when they go low, we go high?"

I'm am not shocked (feigned of otherwise), that's just hyperbole on your part. I don't however prescribe to the notion that 2 wrongs make a right.

All the leadership are behaving like children (Pelosci, Shurmur, McConnel, Trump) no one said has a monopoly on it.

This is fake outrage sorry. If you had been calling him out every day for his mocking behavior I’d buy it but after two years of daily mocking tweets you have occasionally mentioned it but not even to the fever your pointing out the “left” in this case. To say you don’t condone it now and two wrongs don’t make a right right is a dodge in this situation to attempt to gain atleast a level footing on the moral high ground that’s being attempted to be established in this thread.

Politics are dirty, but Trump has set that bar in the gutter from day 1.

[BmorePat87]

(01-28-2019, 01:55 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What percentage of employees don't get backpay?  

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/22/furloughed-federal-workers-to-miss-second-paycheck-this-week.html

"An estimated 800,000 government employees have been caught in the political crossfire of the shutdown, now in its fifth week. Roughly 380,000 federal workers have been furloughed and 420,000 are working without pay."

Quote:People may not understand the government shutdown and how it effects the economy, but people also don't see how the wall will help the economy in the long run and how it will improve our country.

https://phys.org/news/2018-11-economic-impact-border-wall-high.html

https://www.npr.org/2018/12/20/678815277/economic-study-shows-impact-of-existing-wall-at-the-u-s-mexico-border

People don't see how the wall will help the economy because it won't. 

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 02:03 PM)Au165 Wrote: This is fake outrage sorry. If you had been calling him out every day for his mocking behavior I’d buy it but after two years of daily mocking tweets you have  occasionally mentioned it but not even to the fever your pointing out the “left” in this case. To say you don’t condone it now and two wrongs don’t make a right right is a dodge in this situation to attempt to gain atleast a level footing on the moral high ground that’s being attempted to be established in this thread.

Politics are dirty, but Trump has set that bar in the gutter from day 1.

I've called trump on his rhetoric plenty. Given, I have failed the everyday standard. many noble warriors here have not.

But as long as we have someone to blame for our bad behavior we can be absolved.

[*Nately120*]

(01-28-2019, 02:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've called trump on his rhetoric plenty. Given, I have failed the everyday standard. many noble warriors here have not.

But as long as we have someone to blame for our bad behavior we can be absolved.

We can blame MAGA hats, hoodies, and the occasional Burfict jersey for people going after us.

[Au165]

(01-28-2019, 02:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've called trump on his rhetoric plenty. Given, I have failed the everyday standard. many noble warriors here have not.

But as long as we have someone to blame for our bad behavior we can be absolved.

As it was pointed out caved was a rehashing of his own rhetoric on the situation. If that’s now the standard of mocking we’ve gotten to this will be interesting.

[jj22]

"Or Nancy as I call her".

Trump is running out of nicknames to call folks so maybe that's why there's pushback against mocking him now.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 02:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've called trump on his rhetoric plenty. 

No you haven't.

Look, we have all been around here since he got elected.  We all know you are one of his biggest defenders.  You have spent more time defending him here than any other person.

Why don't you just own it?

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 02:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/22/furloughed-federal-workers-to-miss-second-paycheck-this-week.html

"An estimated 800,000 government employees have been caught in the political crossfire of the shutdown, now in its fifth week. Roughly 380,000 federal workers have been furloughed and 420,000 are working without pay."

Are we suggesting that those furloughed will not receive back pay for the hours they would have normally worked? That would be highly unusual.

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No you haven't.

Look, we have all been around here since he got elected.  We all know you are one of his biggest defenders.  You have spent more time defending him here than any other person.

Why don't you just own it?

I've defended him plenty; I own it. But to say I've never called him out on his rhetoric it being less than honest.

[*Nately120*]

(01-28-2019, 02:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are we suggesting that those furloughed will not receive back pay for the hours they would have normally worked? That would be highly unusual.

We hired a highly unusual president, so never say never.

[*Nately120*]

(01-28-2019, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No you haven't.

Look, we have all been around here since he got elected.  We all know you are one of his biggest defenders.  You have spent more time defending him here than any other person.

Why don't you just own it?

In his defense, he's been about as reasonable as anyone defending Trump in the slightest can be as far as I sees it.

[fredtoast]

(01-28-2019, 01:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  Schurmur's comments about hoping Trump "learned his lesson" will do absolutely nothing to work toward a bi-partisan deal

There is NOTHING mocking about that statement.  The truth is that Trump needs to "learn a lesson".  You would have to be blind not to agree.


How else could Schurmur have worded it that would not have set of your "defend Trump" alarm?  Or is no one ever allowed to say anything critical of Trump without getting condemned by you?

[*bfine32*]

(01-28-2019, 02:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is NOTHING mocking about that statement.  The truth is that Trump needs to "learn a lesson".  You would have to be blind not to agree.


How else could Schurmur have worded it that would not have set of your "defend Trump" alarm?  Or is no one ever allowed to say anything critical of Trump without getting condemned by you?

Fred, I have no idea why you continue to engage in debate with me; you always wind up looking foolish. I hope you've learned your lesson.

[BmorePat87]

(01-28-2019, 02:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are we suggesting that those furloughed will not receive back pay for the hours they would have normally worked? That would be highly unusual.

Thanks for calling that post out, that was my bad. I mistakenly thought that was the hourly workers in the federal buildings, but they'd be considered furloughed contractors not furloughed federal employees. 


http://time.com/5513935/shutdown-government-contractors-back-pay/


Looks like that number remains unclear. There's roughly 10,000 companies that contract out to the federal government and no easy way to figure out how many employees were not working because of the shutdown. 

[Dill]

(01-28-2019, 01:33 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Who said it was a bad decision?  And he's planning on doing it again to get done what needs to get done, which is get funding for the wall, which was a big campaign promise.

All of the employees get backpay, which means that it's not like they're just getting robbed.

Trump is doing what needs to be done to accomplish the goal, which is admirable when you consider that a big bash against most politicians is that they don't follow through on promises.

Will contractors get back pay? 

In this case, Trump is following through on a promise 2/3 of Americans never wanted him to make and don't support now. 

That is not "admirable."

Part of what "the left" media is complaining about is Trump backed himself into a no-win situation with no plan b.  Poor leadership. Incompetence.

The right is complaining that he caved. He is "weak."  Incompetence.