Is calling someone "well spoken" a racist thing now? Since when? Are we not allowed to comment on the fact that out of our last three Presidents, only one has actually BEEN well spoken? Or is that racist because that one was Obama?
W Bush: Mediocre Speaker
Obama: Good Speaker
Trump: Terrible Speaker
I don't get it. It's not like he said "he was SUPRISINGLY well spoken" (which then I could understand as being taken wrong) but it looked like he was just giving him a simple compliment. You listen to Trump, you listen to Booker, and simply their speaking skills are night and day. Can we not comment on that? Or are we just too far into 2019 for that to be allowed anymore?
Is calling someone "well spoken" a racist thing now? Since when? Are we not allowed to comment on the fact that out of our last three Presidents, only one has actually BEEN well spoken? Or is that racist because that one was Obama?
W Bush: Mediocre Speaker
Obama: Good Speaker
Trump: Terrible Speaker
I don't get it. It's not like he said "he was SUPRISINGLY well spoken" (which then I could understand as being taken wrong) but it looked like he was just giving him a simple compliment. You listen to Trump, you listen to Booker, and simply their speaking skills are night and day. Can we not comment on that? Or are we just too far into 2019 for that to be allowed anymore?
Quote:He's very well-spoken. He's got some good ideas. It would be better the more diverse any group is. But the public is out there picking and choosing and narrowing down this field.
First sentenceand third are what I'm guessing is the issue. Although honestly this is the first I've heard of it, so I'm not seeing that it's a huge issue.
It doesn't have anything to do with Obama, but the backhanded compliment some people used to give that someone was well spoken, meaning they spoke like a white guy. Just looking at the quote, that does seem to be what he's saying. Either that or he's well spoken and they need to add him to the mix because the rest of the group is unwelly spoken.
Is calling someone "well spoken" a racist thing now? Since when? Are we not allowed to comment on the fact that out of our last three Presidents, only one has actually BEEN well spoken? Or is that racist because that one was Obama?
W Bush: Mediocre Speaker
Obama: Good Speaker
Trump: Terrible Speaker
I don't get it. It's not like he said "he was SUPRISINGLY well spoken" (which then I could understand as being taken wrong) but it looked like he was just giving him a simple compliment. You listen to Trump, you listen to Booker, and simply their speaking skills are night and day. Can we not comment on that? Or are we just too far into 2019 for that to be allowed anymore?
Well if that gets him in trouble, then Uncle Joe should be exiled for his comments about Obama before he was his running mate.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
Is calling someone "well spoken" a racist thing now? Since when? Are we not allowed to comment on the fact that out of our last three Presidents, only one has actually BEEN well spoken? Or is that racist because that one was Obama?
W Bush: Mediocre Speaker
Obama: Good Speaker
Trump: Terrible Speaker
I don't get it. It's not like he said "he was SUPRISINGLY well spoken" (which then I could understand as being taken wrong) but it looked like he was just giving him a simple compliment. You listen to Trump, you listen to Booker, and simply their speaking skills are night and day. Can we not comment on that? Or are we just too far into 2019 for that to be allowed anymore?
The term more often used is "articulate."
My wife is black and you'd be amazed how many people tell her how "articulate" she is.
In college, she worked at a Car Rental place. She had one day where she made a reservation with a man over the phone and when he came to pick it up he said "I mentioned to Dominique on the phone that I wanted GPS but it doesn't show up here on the bill, did she add that to my reservation?" And she replied "yes, that was me, I put it on your order, it was complementary for [reason that I forget, probably a promotion]." And he literally replied "Oh, wow! I thought I was speaking to a white woman, thank you for the free GPS!" Then he just kind of stuttered and tried to correct what he had just said...
It wasn't blatant racism, of course. He just heard a "white voice" on the phone and was expecting the person he was speaking to to be white, but she wasn't and that threw him off enough that he felt the need to point out this discrepancy in his perception to her.
And this has happened throughout her life, especially over the phone. She had a phone interview where essentially the same thing happened. And, after meeting her, the interviewer complimented her on being so articulate (she didn't mention this or anything like it on the phone).
There's this stereotype that black people speak differently or speak more "urban" and informal than white people. Essentially, they speak improperly. And when someone who only sees black people in movies interacts with a black person that just...acts and talks like they do, they feel the need to point it out. Almost compulsively.
Have you ever been called articulate before? Because I haven't. I've never heard anyone that isn't black be called articulate. Well spoken is a more innocuous phrase, but it's the same concept.
But I understand that it does seem ridiculous to think it's racist if you don't know the historical context. I think "racially insensitive" is probably a more accurate term for it, as the term racism has come to mean "with ill intent" (I don't think racism requires ill intent to be racist, but I know people don't like being called racist for unintentional things. It's a touchy subject.)
(12-12-2019, 09:46 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The term more often used is "articulate."
My wife is black and you'd be amazed how many people tell her how "articulate" she is.
In college, she worked at a Car Rental place. She had one day where she made a reservation with a man over the phone and when he came to pick it up he said "I mentioned to Dominique on the phone that I wanted GPS but it doesn't show up here on the bill, did she add that to my reservation?" And she replied "yes, that was me, I put it on your order, it was complementary for [reason that I forget, probably a promotion]." And he literally replied "Oh, wow! I thought I was speaking to a white woman, thank you for the free GPS!" Then he just kind of stuttered and tried to correct what he had just said...
It wasn't blatant racism, of course. He just heard a "white voice" on the phone and was expecting the person he was speaking to to be white, but she wasn't and that threw him off enough that he felt the need to point out this discrepancy in his perception to her.
And this has happened throughout her life, especially over the phone. She had a phone interview where essentially the same thing happened. And, after meeting her, the interviewer complimented her on being so articulate (she didn't mention this or anything like it on the phone).
There's this stereotype that black people speak differently or speak more "urban" and informal than white people. Essentially, they speak improperly. And when someone who only sees black people in movies interacts with a black person that just...acts and talks like they do, they feel the need to point it out. Almost compulsively.
Have you ever been called articulate before? Because I haven't. I've never heard anyone that isn't black be called articulate. Well spoken is a more innocuous phrase, but it's the same concept.
But I understand that it does seem ridiculous to think it's racist if you don't know the historical context.
Not everyone has an ear for voices and we all make assumptions about people on the other end of the phone based on what "we hear".
As an aside my work involves a lot of time on the phone and I used to work in radio so I rely more on my ears than my eyes. I can tell my customers by their voice after a year faster than I could pick out their pictures. And I'm proud of how well I listen and pick up on verbal cues. However my first time in New Orleans I was speaking with an older lady (50-60's) and ask if she was from NY because her accent had a hint of Brooklyn in it. She was born and raised right there. I didn't have enough exposure to that particular tinge in a voice and learned something new.
I have been told I "speak well" but that is after I have done some kind of public event where I had to speak...not just because someone is surprised I speak well....lol.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(12-11-2019, 10:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well if that gets him in trouble, then Uncle Joe should be exiled for his comments about Obama before he was his running mate.
Biden's popularity among black people is very unusual to me. It's almost entirely because of his association to Obama, which I get, but he's said racially insensitive things for decades (not including the controversial bills he passed that relate to race). He called Obama "the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy" which is just...a ridiculous thing to say. Almost to an absurd degree.
Biden has this idea in his head (which he brought up during, I believe, the last debate) that he's "down" with black people and that's why Obama picked him as his vice president but it, ironically, was kind of for the exact opposite reason. Biden was chosen because, among other things, he was an old white man who would balance the ticket to a degree (young black man + old white man = everyone feels safe?) He was also chosen because of his relation to the Midwest, a place that is, objectively, more conservative and white than other portions of America.
It's often times unintentional and the person who says it earnestly thinks they are complimenting the person. It often times, however, carries a connotation that the person should not be well spoken because of their background. There's unfortunately a presumed lack of education and the code "well-spoken" speaks to this belief that they break through that.
Explicit bias is easy to identify and we often times rally behind ridding our society of it. Unintentional bias still exist, however, and when we understand those unintentional biases, we can make a lot a progress by working to overcome them.
(12-12-2019, 11:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So what can I say if I think a black person is especially well spoken or articulate?
In the case of Barack Obama, I think an accurate description would be a "gifted orator." It conveys not that a person has met a certain standard of articulation (often times "you speak like I do.") but that that person has an actual talent that exceeds the norm to a degree such that it merits recognition.
As for other black people, it is situation dependent. Are you complimenting them because they gave a fantastic speech? If that's the case, you can say "That was a fantastic speech!"
Did they give a resoundingly convincing presentation? You can say "that presentation was impressive!"
If you're just having a casual conversation with someone and they say something that you felt was particularly "well spoken" you can say "that was a good point that I hadn't thought of before. Thank you."
I'm just struggling to come up with a scenario where giving an over-arching evaluation of a person's speaking patterns, without referencing specific things that person said, is appropriate or needed. Unless, of course, that person is just genuinely gifted in the art of conveying their message like Obama was, in which case a higher compliment than "well spoken" would be in order.
(12-12-2019, 11:33 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: In the case of Barack Obama, I think an accurate description would be a "gifted orator." It conveys not that a person has met a certain standard of articulation (often times "you speak like I do.") but that that person has an actual talent that exceeds the norm to a degree such that it merits recognition.
As for other black people, it is situation dependent. Are you complimenting them because they gave a fantastic speech? If that's the case, you can say "That was a fantastic speech!"
Did they give a resoundingly convincing presentation? You can say "that presentation was impressive!"
If you're just having a casual conversation with someone and they say something that you felt was particularly "well spoken" you can say "that was a good point that I hadn't thought of before. Thank you."
I'm just struggling to come up with a scenario where giving an over-arching evaluation of a person's speaking patterns, without referencing specific things that person said, is appropriate or needed. Unless, of course, that person is just genuinely gifted in the art of conveying their message like Obama was, in which case a higher compliment than "well spoken" would be in order.
Word of praise here for an articulate Bengals fan. You, sir, are a credit to your team's fan base.
(12-12-2019, 01:57 PM)Dill Wrote: Word of praise here for an articulate Bengals fan. You, sir, are a credit to your team's fan base.
Dawg I hope you tell this teamist where he can shove his backhanded compliment.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(12-12-2019, 11:33 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'm just struggling to come up with a scenario where giving an over-arching evaluation of a person's speaking patterns, without referencing specific things that person said, is appropriate or needed.
So you are saying no one ever used the word "articulate" until it was used to insult black people?
C'mon, man. It happens all the time. Lots of people use language in their daily lives, lawyers, salesmen, preachers, teachers, students, etc. Any time you talk about these people doing their jobs it is appropriate to comment on how articulate they are.
BTW do you think the term "articulate" is also an insult to white people from rural areas or the south in general?
(12-12-2019, 11:33 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: As for other black people, it is situation dependent. Are you complimenting them because they gave a fantastic speech? If that's the case, you can say "That was a fantastic speech!"
Did they give a resoundingly convincing presentation? You can say "that presentation was impressive!"
Then they will get just upset and say "You mean a good speech/presentation FOR A BLACK PERSON, right?"
I highly recommend the 13 year old Times article I posted if this concept still eludes you.
I'm actually on race and ethnicity in Sociology right now, so we spent today talking about coded language, code switching, and dog whistle politics thanks to this thread.
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