We Hit Peak 2019

[CJD]

(12-13-2019, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "Well spoken" and "articulate" are also compliments used by all races to describe people of all races.  You can't just change the entire meaning of words because some people use them is a racist manner.  And I am saying that Blomberg had zero racist intentions in mind when he used that comment about Booker.  But now a large part of the black community has painted Bloomberg as a racists with no evidence at all.

Claiming every white person is racist because of a history of racism is no different from claiming every black person is a violent criminal based on the history of the violent criminal being so much higher among African Americans.  You have to stop doing that.  It is just wrong, and it creates more dissention between the races.  It is possible for a white person to call a black person "well spoken" and not mean "well spoken for a black person".  If that triggers black people then they just need to get over it.  Look at the facts before jumping to conclusions.  If Bloomberg had made this comment about a black person he just met then you may have some cause to be triggered, but it is just ridiculous when he is talking about a US Senator who graduated from Sanford.  Your claim that is was "subconscious" is just something you made up in your head with no facts to back it up.

"Stop getting offended and look at the facts surrounding this subjective matter regarding race relations" may be the whitest sentiment I've ever read.

[*bfine32*]

Just so I'm PC: I should never tell a black person that he/she is well spoken?

[CJD]

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Your posts have done a great job illustrating the problem. In addition to throwing around tired stereotypes and generalization, you're out right promoting a straw-man and refusing to broaden your perspective beyond what you're entrenched in.

The reality is "well spoken" and "articulate" are often times used exclusively for black people by white people in situations where it would be a given that the individual can speak clearly. There is no actual outcry claiming intentional racism on Bloomberg's part or when Obama was called "the first articulate... African American candidate" by Biden. The dialogue has been on how the language has been used in the past and the unintentional meaning behind it and then how we can learn from it and be better.

One of the worst responses to addressing implicit bias is to suggest that addressing it causes more problems. It doesn't. That's just a intellectually lazy response. Refusing to learn isn't admirable. I've recommended that people read any of the links I posted, but particularly the Times article. It's clear no one has, and it seems like the reason why is that people do not care about educating themselves on this issue. They'd rather just spit out what they've believed based on their experiences and not those of anyone else. 

I read it. It was an enjoyable read and reflective of everything my wife and our black friends have said to me (and what I've witnessed through them) about this topic in the past.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Your posts have done a great job illustrating the problem. In addition to throwing around tired stereotypes and generalization, you're out right promoting a straw-man and refusing to broaden your perspective beyond what you're entrenched in.

I did not use a single "tired stereotype or generalization".

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The reality is "well spoken" and "articulate" are often times used exclusively for black people by white people in situations where it would be a given that the individual can speak clearly.

"Often times"?  That is my point exactly.  The claim that the terms "articulate" and "well spoken" are only used by whites to describe blacks is total BS.

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There is no actual outcry claiming intentional racism on Bloomberg's part or when Obama was called "the first articulate... African American candidate" by Biden. The dialogue has been on how the language has been used in the past and the unintentional meaning behind it and then how we can learn from it and be better.

There was a huge outcry.  That is what Bloomberg had to apologize.  And as for how we can "learn from it and make it better" I asked what I should say instead of "articulate" or "well spoken" and the only answer I got was that the term was never used unless discussing a specific speech.  That makes no sense at all.  And it also does not explain why a black person is not offended if I say "Nice speech" instead of complimenting them on being "well spoken" 

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: One of the worst responses to addressing implicit bias is to suggest that addressing it causes more problems. It doesn't. That's just a intellectually lazy response.

But it does cause problems.  Bloomberg is going to be running for President.  Now he is being painted as a racist or ignorant fr complimenting Corey Booker.

(12-13-2019, 03:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote:  I've recommended that people read any of the links I posted, but particularly the Times article. It's clear no one has, and it seems like the reason why is that people do not care about educating themselves on this issue. They'd rather just spit out what they've believed based on their experiences and not those of anyone else. 

Now you are the one using BS generalizations.  I read the article.  Check out this quote

"Do not use it as the primary attribute of note for a black person if you would not use it for a similarly talented, skilled or eloquent white person."

So since I use the term "articulate" all the time to describe white people I should be able to use it to describe a black person.  But if I do then apparently that black person will be offended.  Martin Luther King is considered to be a great orator, but it is against the rules for me to call him "articulate" or "well spoken"?  That is just absurd.

White people need to work on not being racist, but black people have to work on not blaming everything on racism.

[*bfine32*]

So many questions that I cannot get answered by the PC Police. I don't want to have to apologize so I need some help:

1. Should I ever call a black person articulate?

2. If a black person calls a white person inarticulate is that racist?

3. If a black person calls another black person articulate is that racist?

4. If a white person calls a black person inarticulate is that racist?

5. How should I complement a black person that I find to be articulate in his/her speech?

[treee]

(12-13-2019, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: White people need to work on not being racist, but black people have to work on not blaming everything on racism.

You need to work on not making sweeping generalizations of black people.

[*bfine32*]

(12-13-2019, 09:44 PM)treee Wrote: You need to work on not making sweeping generalizations of black people.

But no issue with his sweeping generalization of white people?

[BmorePat87]

(12-13-2019, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I did not use a single "tired stereotype or generalization".




"Often times"?  That is my point exactly.  The claim that the terms "articulate" and "well spoken" are only used by whites to describe blacks is total BS.



There was a huge outcry.  That is what Bloomberg had to apologize.  And as for how we can "learn from it and make it better" I asked what I should say instead of "articulate" or "well spoken" and the only answer I got was that the term was never used unless discussing a specific speech.  That makes no sense at all.  And it also does not explain why a black person is not offended if I say "Nice speech" instead of complimenting them on being "well spoken" 



But it does cause problems.  Bloomberg is going to be running for President.  Now he is being painted as a racist or ignorant fr complimenting Corey Booker.



Now you are the one using BS generalizations.  I read the article.  Check out this quote

"Do not use it as the primary attribute of note for a black person if you would not use it for a similarly talented, skilled or eloquent white person."

So since I use the term "articulate" all the time to describe white people I should be able to use it to describe a black person.  But if I do then apparently that black person will be offended.  Martin Luther King is considered to be a great orator, but it is against the rules for me to call him "articulate" or "well spoken"?  That is just absurd.

White people need to work on not being racist, but black people have to work on not blaming everything on racism.

Yikes. You start with claiming you made no generalizations and then end with one.

You’re wrong in your continued insistence that Bloomberg is being attacked as a racist, as no credible voice has called him that. The conversation has been on having a conversation on how words have meaning to certain constituencies.

As to your question about what words to say? The word articulate means “ having or showing the ability to speak fluently and coherently”. Well spoken means to speak in an educated manner.

An average adult with a secondary education should be articulate and well spoken. I have a hard time believing you use either phrase on a regular basis to describe white people, but you could, as others have said, specifically compliment the speech itself and it’s contents rather than point out that the person is capable of stringing together words coherently as a compliment.

“Incredible speech, that point you made about Jeffersonian politics really resonated with me”

“Senator Thompson is a great orator”

“Tina has a commanding presence when she speaks”


I’m glad you read the article after I suggested it. Hopefully you’ll earnestly consider the authors point .

[Dill]

(12-13-2019, 08:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So many questions that I cannot get answered by the PC Police. I don't want to have to apologize so I need some help:

1. Should I ever call a black person articulate?

2. If a black person calls a white person inarticulate is that racist?

3. If a black person calls another black person articulate is that racist?

4. If a white person calls a black person inarticulate is that racist?

5. How should I complement a black person that I find to be articulate in his/her speech?

1. no
2. no
3. no
4. no. Wait, which white person?
5. "The advantages of Sanders' Medicare proposal were clearly articulated in your speech. I finally understand why we need a single-payer system."

[*bfine32*]

(12-16-2019, 10:23 PM)Dill Wrote: 1. no
2. no
3. no
4. no. Wait, which white person?
5. "The advantages of Sanders' Medicare proposal were clearly articulated in your speech. I finally understand why we need a single-payer system."

I must say I find your rules to be disadvantageous to subordinates of color I may recommend for instructor positions. 

When recommending the white guy for the position I can describe him/her as articulate; however, I cannot do the same for the employee of color because that'd be racist..

Screw it...I'm going to be racist..I'll give them both equal recommendations based on their merits and not their color. 

[*michaelsean*]

I gotta be honest. I'm tired of being told I've got to learn all of this shit. There seem to be more rules to talking to or about black people than I can possibly remember. Pretty soon you're just going to have people afraid to say anything.

And the amount of adults with a secondary education who aren't the least bit articulate is astounding.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 10:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You’re wrong in your continued insistence that Bloomberg is being attacked as a racist, as no credible voice has called him that. The conversation has been on having a conversation on how words have meaning to certain constituencies.

So he was attacked for using "racist language" but no one was calling him a racist?

This is getting ridiculous.  His language was not racist if he did not intend it to be racist.

You all just keep ignoring my main point.  If Bloomberg had made this comment about some random black man he just met then you might have a point.  But he didn't.  he used that language in a way that was clearly not racist.  Yet he was criticized so much he was forced to apologize.  This is nothing but black people calling EVERYONE racist.  And all it does is make white people mad to be called racist when they are not.
White people have to work on not being racist, but black people have to work on not creating racism where it does not exist.

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 10:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So he was attacked for using "racist language" but no one was calling him a racist?
This is getting ridiculous.  His language was not racist if he did not intend it to be racist.
You all just keep ignoring my main point.  If Bloomberg had made this comment about some random black man he just met then you might have a point.  But he didn't.  he used that language in a way that was clearly not racist.  Yet he was criticized so much he was forced to apologize.  This is nothing but black people calling EVERYONE racist.  And all it does is make white people mad to be called racist when they are not.
White people have to work on not being racist, but black people have to work on not creating racism where it does not exist.

Racist language? I don't know if anyone called it "racist". Booker described it as "tired tropes or the language we have out there that folks I don't think understand". 

He also said “I have a great deal of regard for him as somebody who helped me help the city of Newark. I’m sure Mike gets it now, I hope, and I hope people around him are talking to him about why that plays into what is, for the black community in particular, just these are signs of frustration that we continue to deal with.”

I'm not sure why you're continuing to argue straw men, but in doing so you're bypassing the point and continuing to make lazy generalizations as an excuse. 

[GMDino]

(12-17-2019, 10:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I gotta be honest.  I'm tired of being told I've got to learn all of this shit.  There seem to be more rules to talking to or about black people than I can possibly remember.  Pretty soon you're just going to have people afraid to say anything.

And the amount of adults with a secondary education who aren't the least bit articulate is astounding.

Eh, you talk to "black people" like you talk to everyone else.  If you say something that offends them (just like is possible with everyone else) you apologize and learn.

Can't call women "broads" and "dames" anymore either.

Live and learn.



Sidenote: One friend from college (more a friend of a friend) recently posted on FB that if anyone says or does or jokes about ANYTHING racist he will unfriend and block them and to please not even talk to him in real life.    I *almost* asked him what happens if someone says something they don't even KNOW will offend him but it wasn't worth it because HE takes his racist UBER seriously.

Could use a little less of that extreme reaction too.

Maybe we can just teach and learn from each other and everyone will feel a little more comfortable that they aren't going to start a fight/argument all the time.

[*michaelsean*]

(12-17-2019, 11:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: Eh, you talk to "black people" like you talk to everyone else.  If you say something that offends them (just like is possible with everyone else) you apologize and learn.

Can't call women "broads" and "dames" anymore either.

Live and learn.



Sidenote: One friend from college (more a friend of a friend) recently posted on FB that if anyone says or does or jokes about ANYTHING racist he will unfriend and block them and to please not even talk to him in real life.    I *almost* asked him what happens if someone says something they don't even KNOW will offend him but it wasn't worth it because HE takes his racist UBER seriously.

Could use a little less of that extreme reaction too.

Maybe we can just teach and learn from each other and everyone will feel a little more comfortable that they aren't going to start a fight/argument all the time.

I don't mind knowing some things that can be offensive, but it seems to be going out of control.   Then again i'm getting old.

[GMDino]

(12-17-2019, 12:41 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't mind knowing some things that can be offensive, but it seems to be going out of control.   Then again i'm getting old.

Yep.  Things change.

A few years ago I made reference to a "sped" class in high school and confused the heck out of my son.  He didn't understand why that was ever an acceptable word.

Now that the kids are older I will deliberately expose them to things we could say when *I* was 20 that would get you fired today.

But along with that I've changed my ways when I feel it is best.  That's all part of evolving as a society and a person, to me.

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 11:19 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Racist language? I don't know if anyone called it "racist".

Now you are just doing the semantics dance.  If they weren't racit then what was the problem with them.

You have repeatedly used the term "implicit bias".  Calling someone "biased" is the same as calling them racist.  Crazydawg called it "subconscious racism". This is not a "straw man".  This is exactly what you have said. 

And again, you keep ignoring my point.  If Bloomberg made these comments about a black person he just met and did not know then you might hve  point, but there is no way Mike Bloomberg just thinks Coery Booker is just "well spoken for a black person".  And that is what I man about accusing a person of racism for no good reason.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2019, 10:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: An average adult with a secondary education should be articulate and well spoken. I have a hard time believing you use either phrase on a regular basis to describe white people, 

And here is the problem in a nutshell. You are so brainwashed you think that the term "well spoken" has never been used by a white person to describe another white person.  Just stop and think about how crazy that claim is.

I am a litigator.  My job depends on being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When litigators talk about other litigators those terms are used quite often.  Politicians are the same.  One of their most important skills is being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When one politician calls a Rhodes Scholar with a law degree from Yale "well spoken" it has ZERO to do with race.  People are just imagining bias and racism where it does not exist

[treee]

(12-17-2019, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And here is the problem in a nutshell. You are so brainwashed you think that the term "well spoken" has never been used by a white person to describe another white person.  Just stop and think about how crazy that claim is.

I am a litigator.  My job depends on being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When litigators talk about other litigators those terms are used quite often.  Politicians are the same.  One of their most important skills is being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When one politician calls a Rhodes Scholar with a law degree from Yale "well spoken" it has ZERO to do with race.  People are just imagining bias and racism where it does not exist

You made your own point against yourself. Calling someone who is a Rhodes Scholar with a law degree from Yale "well spoken" is a bit of an understatement, wouldn't you say? That, along with consideration that the phrase itself is stigmatized , is worthy of criticism.

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now you are just doing the semantics dance.  If they weren't racit then what was the problem with them.

You have repeatedly used the term "implicit bias".  Calling someone "biased" is the same as calling them racist.  Crazydawg called it "subconscious racism". This is not a "straw man".  This is exactly what you have said. 

And again, you keep ignoring my point.  If Bloomberg made these comments about a black person he just met and did not know then you might hve  point, but there is no way Mike Bloomberg just thinks Coery Booker is just "well spoken for a black person".  And that is what I man about accusing a person of racism for no good reason.

Michael Bloomberg apologized because of what was said on the Bengals message board? If your argument hinges on referencing message board posts instead of what Booker or other prominent voices said and then twisting those comments, you're not making a very good argument. The fact you absolutely ignore Booker's rational comments every time I bring them up suggests that you have no interest in having an actual dialogue, as Booker is promoting. Which makes this post I am about to quote ironic...

(12-17-2019, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And here is the problem in a nutshell. You are so brainwashed you think that the term "well spoken" has never been used by a white person to describe another white person.  Just stop and think about how crazy that claim is.

I am a litigator.  My job depends on being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When litigators talk about other litigators those terms are used quite often.  Politicians are the same.  One of their most important skills is being "well spoken" and "articulate".  When one politician calls a Rhodes Scholar with a law degree from Yale "well spoken" it has ZERO to do with race.  People are just imagining bias and racism where it does not exist

I'm not brainwashed, I just don't believe you. You can deny the historical uses of the terms, but that history still exists.