We Hit Peak 2019

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 02:36 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm not brainwashed, I just don't believe you. You can deny the historical uses of the terms, but that history still exists. 

So you insist that no white person has ever called another white person "well spoken" or "articulate" and I am the one denying history?

Since you have called me I liar I propose a sig bet.  If I can find an example of a white person calling another white person "well spoke" or "articulate" then you have to have a signature that says "Fredtoast knows more about racism than I do" for a month.

Deal?



 

[Dill]

(12-16-2019, 11:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I must say I find your rules to be disadvantageous to subordinates of color I may recommend for instructor positions. 

When recommending the white guy for the position I can describe him/her as articulate; however, I cannot do the same for the employee of color because that'd be racist..

Screw it...I'm going to be racist..I'll give them both equal recommendations based on their merits and not their color. 

LOL thus continues the battle against "real" racism.

Go gettem, Tiger!

[Dill]

(12-17-2019, 10:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I gotta be honest.  I'm tired of being told I've got to learn all of this shit.  There seem to be more rules to talking to or about black people than I can possibly remember.  Pretty soon you're just going to have people afraid to say anything.

And the amount of adults with a secondary education who aren't the least bit articulate is astounding.

Unless we are in a position to speak to the public about controversial issues, most of us white folks needn't worry much about "rules."

The people who will likely have difficulty with others in their daily commerce are those deliberately testing boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 03:26 PM)Dill Wrote: Unless we are in a position to speak to the public about controversial issues, most of us white folks needn't worry much about "rules."

The people who will likely have difficulty with others in their daily commerce are those deliberately testing boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

So was Bloomberg talking about a controversial issues or was he testing boundaries when he called Booker "well spoken"?

[Dill]

(12-17-2019, 03:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So was Bloomberg talking about a controversial issues or was he testing boundaries when he called Booker "well spoken"?

While speaking to the public about controversial issues, Bloomberg used a phrase an ex-Mayor of New York should have been wary of using.

Can't test boundaries you are unaware of violating. That's the concern some listeners will have.

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 03:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you insist that no white person has ever called another white person "well spoken" or "articulate" and I am the one denying history?

Since you have called me I liar I propose a sig bet.  If I can find an example of a white person calling another white person "well spoke" or "articulate" then you have to have a signature that says "Fredtoast knows more about racism than I do" for a month.

Deal?



 

This is the last straw man of yours I will reply to. 

I said 

"I have a hard time believing you use either phrase on a regular basis to describe white people,"

and 

"The reality is "well spoken" and "articulate" are often times used exclusively for black people by white people in situations where it would be a given that the individual can speak clearly."

and 

"Unfortunately, there's a history of it being used almost exclusively to describe black people, and the implication is that they are well spoken ... for a black person."

You can't make up arguments on my behalf. 

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 04:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I said 

"I have a hard time believing you use either phrase on a regular basis to describe white people,"

So you agree that some white people do it, but you can't believe I do?

Please explain.

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you agree that some white people do it, but you can't believe I do?

Please explain.

You've made a number of straw men arguments and made emotional generalizations about people. That led to me not trusting you at your word. Also, as I said, the term is mostly used to describe black people, which is another reason why I doubt that you use it regularly to describe white people. As others have also noted, the use of the phrase in this thread has been in instances where it would be redundant (in cases where it goes without saying the person should be able to speak clearly), yet those are the instances where it is usually used to describe minorities. 

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 04:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote:  As others have also noted, the use of the phrase in this thread has been in instances where it would be redundant (in cases where it goes without saying the person should be able to speak clearly), yet those are the instances where it is usually used to describe minorities. 

Now you are just going in a circle.

Can't use "articulate" to compliment intelligent people because it is redundant.

But you also can't use "articulate" to describe people whose culture promotes improper grammar because it is offensive.

So when can a person use the term "articulate" to describe a person?  

Or are you saying it can never be used again?  Has it become "the A-word"?

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 04:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You've made a number of straw men arguments and made emotional generalizations about people. That led to me not trusting you at your word.

I have not made any "emotional generalizations" about anyone.  You just assumed I was racist because I disagreed with you.

But the main reason I have disagreed with you so strongly is exactly because I USE THE WORD "ARTICULATE" TO DESCRIBE PEOPLE and I am offended at the suggestion that if I use it to describe a black person that makes me racist.

that is the whole point of this discussion.  When you start labelling everyone as racist for no good reason then you just offend people.  And that makes things worse instead of better.  Why piss off people who are on your side?

If Bloomberg had made these comments about a black person who he just met and did not know then black people would have had right to be "triggered".  But when he uses it to describe a person who is actually very well spoken and articulate it appears that blacks care more about playing the victim card than actually trying to improve race relations.

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 05:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now you are just going in a circle.

Can't use "articulate" to compliment intelligent people because it is redundant.

But you also can't use "articulate" to describe people whose culture promotes improper grammar because it is offensive.

So when can a person use the term "articulate" to describe a person?  

Or are you saying it can never be used again?  Has it become "the A-word"?

You've unwittingly shown my point.

The word means 

"(of a person or a person's words) having or showing the ability to speak fluently and coherently."

Most people with a high school education are articulate. It's redundant to use it to describe a Rhodes Scholar. One would assume they can speak coherently.

The word is often times attributed to black people by white people because the assumption by those using it is, as you just clearly stated, that black culture "promotes improper grammar". This is the implicit bias.

As noted in the article I posted that you claimed to have read

Quote:“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.” And such distinctions discount as inarticulate historically black patterns of speech. “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,” said Tricia Rose, professor of Africana Studies at Brown University. “But because he speaks with a cadence and style that is firmly rooted in black rhetorical tradition you will rarely hear white people refer to him as articulate.”

I hope you can use this as a learning experience. 

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 05:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Most people with a high school education are articulate. It's redundant to use it to describe a Rhodes Scholar. One would assume they can speak coherently.

It is also redundant to call a Rhodes Scholar "well educated" but no one is complaining when Bloomberg used that term in his apology.

(12-17-2019, 05:24 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You've unwittingly shown my point.

And you have intentionally refused to answer my question.


If we can't used the term "well spoken" to compliment smart people because it is redundant, and we can't use "well spoken" to describe people who come from a culture that promotes improper grammar then when can we use it?



 


 


 

[CJD]

(12-17-2019, 10:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I gotta be honest.  I'm tired of being told I've got to learn all of this shit.  There seem to be more rules to talking to or about black people than I can possibly remember.  Pretty soon you're just going to have people afraid to say anything.

And the amount of adults with a secondary education who aren't the least bit articulate is astounding.

In my experience, the vast majority of people give a fair amount of latitude when it comes to things like this. I've said multiple offensive things to people unintentionally in my life and they've typically just pointed out "that viewpoint really hurts my feelings and this is why." I listen to them, I apologize (assuming I agree that their world view and world experience is valid) and we move on.

And it's not just black people who get offended. When I was younger I asked one of my friends, who has a set of lesbians moms and gay dads, "so did your biological parents have sex or is your dad more like a sperm donor?"  and she just said "I mean...he's not a sperm donor, he's my dad. But I think they did do in vitro." It was clear my phrasing (and honestly, even asking about her parents' sex lives in general) made her uncomfortable and she explained that she's had to deal with people questioning her parental situation her whole life and it's a sore topic. I apologized and said I shouldn't have pried into their personal business or downgrade her dad to a sperm donor. It was just a stupid question and phrasing. She accepted my apology and the day went on.

Being offended or being uncomfortable when someone brings up a sensitive topic is a natural thing that all people have. It's just when it comes to racial things, they are often a bit more ubiquitous. And when you hear or deal with the same thing over and over again (black people also have people inexplicably want to touch their hair more often than you'd think), it can begin to wear down their patience. The reaction of the person is important, but most times people who are offended at least attempt to explain why they got offended and provide the opportunity for the person to understand why what they said was offensive, even if it wasn't intended.

Unless they see you as a lost cause. But this usually only occurs after multiple attempts at correcting someone.

That's a rather long way of saying "You can say racist/offensive things without being a racist/bigot and most people won't immediately condemn you for it, especially if you are apologetic and/or acknowledge you didn't intend it the way it was taken."

It isn't a set of hard rules that we all must abide by at all times when interacting with black people. It's just...be respectful and listen to them if something you say happens to have a history or context that you were not aware of.

I think Twitter and the ability to respond directly to public figures is just kind of...making these interactions less personal. And any interaction that loses personal or in person aspect has a tendency to fly off the rails.

[treee]

(12-17-2019, 07:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is also redundant to call a Rhodes Scholar "well educated" but no one is complaining when Bloomberg used that term in his apology.



And you have intentionally refused to answer my question.


If we can't used the term "well spoken" to compliment smart people because it is redundant, and we can't use "well spoken" to describe people who come from a culture that promotes improper grammar then when can we use it?

 

Or you could just use half an ounce of energy and think of a different way to assign merits to those you wish to give credit to. One would imagine finding an alternate method to convey a concept would not be difficult for a lawyer. 

[fredtoast]

Quote:
“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.” And such distinctions discount as inarticulate historically black patterns of speech. “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,” said Tricia Rose, professor of Africana Studies at Brown University. “But because he speaks with a cadence and style that is firmly rooted in black rhetorical tradition you will rarely hear white people refer to him as articulate.”


Al Sharpton is a big reason many white people think blacks can't use proper grammar.  Black people can't have it both ways.  They can't promote improper grammar and then act offended when white people compliment the ones that can speak properly.

A few years ago they were asking for extra tax payer money be devoted to special programs to teach black kids to use proper English instead of African-American Vernacular English.  Now they are saying people who use AAVE are "incredibly articulate" and anyone who thinks differently is racist.

So which is it?

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 07:33 PM)treee Wrote: Or you could just use half an ounce of energy and think of a different way to assign merits to those you wish to give credit to. One would imagine finding an alternate method to convey a concept would not be difficult for a lawyer. 

Why should the burden be on me.  


Are you suggesting black people are not capable of seeing the difference between Bloomberg making that comment about a stranger and making that comment about a Rhodes Scholar?

[treee]

(12-17-2019, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Quote:
“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.” And such distinctions discount as inarticulate historically black patterns of speech. “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,” said Tricia Rose, professor of Africana Studies at Brown University. “But because he speaks with a cadence and style that is firmly rooted in black rhetorical tradition you will rarely hear white people refer to him as articulate.”


Al Sharpton is a big reason many white people think blacks can't use proper grammar.  Black people can't have it both ways.  They can't promote improper grammar and then act offended when white people compliment the ones that can speak properly.

A few years ago they were asking for extra tax payer money be devoted to special programs to teach black kids to use proper English instead of African-American Vernacular English.  Now they are saying people who use AAVE are "well spoken" and anyone who thinks differently is racist.

I think that modern AAVE is valuable culturally. Particularly the emergence of some of the situational evaluation terms that are succinct and convey the feelings of the speaker exceptionally.

[treee]

(12-17-2019, 07:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why should the burden be on me.  


Are you suggesting black people are not capable of seeing the difference between Bloomberg making that comment about a stranger and making that comment about a Rhodes Scholar?

Why should anyone be burdened with any cultural norm?

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 07:42 PM)treee Wrote: I think that modern AAVE is valuable culturally. Particularly the emergence of some of the situational evaluation terms that are succinct and convey the feelings of the speaker exceptionally.

Too bad employers want people who use proper grammar.

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 07:45 PM)treee Wrote: Why should anyone be burdened with any cultural norm?

White people have been calling other white people "well spoken" and "articulate" for a long long time.  Why should that cultural norm be eliminated because black people can't see the difference between making a comment to a stranger and making a comment to a Rhodes Scholar?