We Hit Peak 2019

[treee]

(12-17-2019, 07:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Too bad employers want people who use proper grammar.

Employers want good employees.

[*bfine32*]

Given the back and forth over the last few pages I must reiterate my OP in this thread:

bfine32 Wrote:Watching the snake eat itself is entertaining.

"How dare you compliment someone"

[BmorePat87]

(12-17-2019, 07:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is also redundant to call a Rhodes Scholar "well educated" but no one is complaining when Bloomberg used that term in his apology.



And you have intentionally refused to answer my question.


If we can't used the term "well spoken" to compliment smart people because it is redundant, and we can't use "well spoken" to describe people who come from a culture that promotes improper grammar then when can we use it?

I didn't see any story of him calling him well-educated. I saw this quote "he is a Rhodes Scholar, which is much more impressive than my academic background,"

I haven't answered your question because it is irrelevant to my point, but here's an example: "That student is really articulate for a 5th grader". 

You also really should understand that by repeating your claim that black culture "promotes improper grammar", you're making my case. You've reinforced it multiple times now. Do you honestly not understand that you're promoting a stereotype that suggests that black culture is inherently less educated by saying it promotes improper grammar when you say that? 

[*michaelsean*]

(12-17-2019, 08:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't see any story of him calling him well-educated. I saw this quote "he is a Rhodes Scholar, which is much more impressive than my academic background,"

I haven't answered your question because it is irrelevant to my point, but here's an example: "That student is really articulate for a 5th grader". 

You also really should understand that by repeating your claim that black culture "promotes improper grammar", you're making my case. You've reinforced it multiple times now. Do you honestly not understand that you're promoting a stereotype that suggests that black culture is inherently less educated by saying it promotes improper grammar when you say that? 

You can be well educated and still use improper grammar on purpose.  

[BmorePat87]

(12-18-2019, 09:43 AM)michaelsean Wrote: You can be well educated and still use improper grammar on purpose.  

You absolutely can, but our society conflates the use of improper grammar, intentional or not, with a lack of education. It's kind of the point. If enough people actually believe what Fred believes (that black culture "promotes improper grammar") then they will believe that it is a culture that is inherently uneducated. The use of words like "articulate" and "well spoken" then have additional subtext.

The reality is what you said that intentional improper grammar does not imply being uneducated and that black culture does not promote improper grammar. 

[*michaelsean*]

(12-18-2019, 10:07 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You absolutely can, but our society conflates the use of improper grammar, intentional or not, with a lack of education. It's kind of the point. If enough people actually believe what Fred believes (that black culture "promotes improper grammar") then they will believe that it is a culture that is inherently uneducated. The use of words like "articulate" and "well spoken" then have additional subtext.

The reality is what you said that intentional improper grammar does not imply being uneducated and that black culture does not promote improper grammar. 

The fact that people may conflate bad grammar with being uneducated has no bearing on the truthfulness Fred's statement. Personally  I can't attest that what Fred said is true outside of maybe hip hop I hear my son listen to.  I just don't pay enough attention to what entails black culture.  

[Dill]

(12-17-2019, 07:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote:
Al Sharpton is a big reason many white people think blacks can't use proper grammar.  Black people can't have it both ways.  They can't promote improper grammar and then act offended when white people compliment the ones that can speak properly.

A few years ago they were asking for extra tax payer money be devoted to special programs to teach black kids to use proper English instead of African-American Vernacular English.  Now they are saying people who use AAVE are "incredibly articulate" and anyone who thinks differently is racist.

So which is it?

I would phrase this differently. I would say many white people complain that blacks speak and sometimes promote a non-standard dialect which is different from the dominant dialect--dominant because of the social, political and economic power of those who speak it, not because it is "proper" in some absolute sense transcending all variations of English.


Whether black people want it "both ways" is also not the best way to frame the consequences, since "black people" do not speak with one voice.

If SOME black people want community dialect respected in our education system and SOME OTHERS do not, that is not "black people having it both ways" any more than my disagreement with you on this issue is "white people" wanting it both ways.

[BmorePat87]

(12-18-2019, 10:14 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The fact that people may conflate bad grammar with being uneducated has no bearing on the truthfulness Fred's statement. Personally  I can't attest that what Fred said is true outside of maybe hip hop I hear my son listen to.  I just don't pay enough attention to what entails black culture.  

I am not dismissing his false generalization of black culture on the basis of how society judges improper grammar, though I am saying that he is promoting a stereotype held by society by repeatedly saying that his generalization is true. 

[fredtoast]

(12-17-2019, 08:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't see any story of him calling him well-educated. I saw this quote "he is a Rhodes Scholar, which is much more impressive than my academic background,"

I haven't answered your question because it is irrelevant to my point, but here's an example: "That student is really articulate for a 5th grader". 

You also really should understand that by repeating your claim that black culture "promotes improper grammar", you're making my case. You've reinforced it multiple times now. Do you honestly not understand that you're promoting a stereotype that suggests that black culture is inherently less educated by saying it promotes improper grammar when you say that? 

How can you quote a professor of African American studies from an Ivy League school saying “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,”, and deny that their culture promotes improper grammar. it was such a problem that schools started setting up special programs specifically for black children who were raised speaking African American Vernacular English.

You can argue all you want to about "style", but the fact is that proper grammar is still a necessary part of functioning in 99% of the jobs that require communicating with clients, other businesses/agencies, co-workers, or supervisors/management.

[BmorePat87]

(12-19-2019, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How can you quote a professor of African American studies from an Ivy League school saying “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,”, and deny that their culture promotes improper grammar.  it was such a problem that schools started setting up special programs specifically for black children who were raised speaking African American Vernacular English.

You can argue all you want to about "style", but the fact is that proper grammar is still a necessary part of functioning in 99% of the jobs that require communicating with clients, other businesses/agencies, co-workers, or supervisors/management.

By perpetuating a belief that black vernacular patterns are inherently improper, you're suggesting that black culture is inherently subordinate to or less than mainstream (white) culture. Your argument is flawed as you (1) suggest uniformity in Black America and (2) suggest that dialects are "improper" because they differ from one promoted by the majority. 

Some segments of Black culture promote the use of their own vernacular patterns and dialects, but those dialects also follow their own rules related to grammar. 

Again, this is the whole point. No one is calling any one racist. People are just asking others to understand how they are viewing or judging other cultures by comparing them to their own or to one that is promoted by the majority. That is what causes people to overuse the word "articulate" or the phrase "well spoken" when describing black people. 

[treee]

(12-19-2019, 04:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: By perpetuating a belief that black vernacular patterns are inherently improper, you're suggesting that black culture is inherently subordinate to or less than mainstream (white) culture. Your argument is flawed as you (1) suggest uniformity in Black America and (2) suggest that dialects are "improper" because they differ from one promoted by the majority. 

Some segments of Black culture promote the use of their own vernacular patterns and dialects, but those dialects also follow their own rules related to grammar. 

Again, this is the whole point. No one is calling any one racist. People are just asking others to understand how they are viewing or judging other cultures by comparing them to their own or to one that is promoted by the majority. That is what causes people to overuse the word "articulate" or the phrase "well spoken" when describing black people. 

Aka ethnocentrism:

"evaluation of other cultures according to preconceptions originating in the standards and customs of one's own culture."

[fredtoast]

(12-19-2019, 04:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: By perpetuating a belief that black vernacular patterns are inherently improper, you're suggesting that black culture is inherently subordinate to or less than mainstream (white) culture. Your argument is flawed as you (1) suggest uniformity in Black America and (2) suggest that dialects are "improper" because they differ from one promoted by the majority. 

I am saying that we have universal rules for our language.  Rules of proper grammar are not subjective moral judgements.  They are rules of proper grammar.

You can believe this following story or not, but I've been open here about my real name and where I work.  I'll back this up with exact details if you want.  Both of my parents were raised in poverty in rural eastern Kentucky/Tennessee.  Neither of them graduated from high school. They met in Ohio where they went to get jobs in the 50's.  Almost all of their friends were also poorly educated migrants from Appalachia who flooded Cincinnati/Dayton area. The bluegrass/country music we listened to used a lot of hillbilly language.  I was raised in a culture that not only used poor grammar, but in many situations glorified the redneck/hillbilly backwoods vernacular.  I always did very well in school, but I struggled for years to eliminate the bad grammar habits that were instilled in me by my culture. I am especially thankful for a friend I had in law school who was a big enough asshole to call out any grammatical error I made. I am proud that I know how to speak properly. 


When a judge askes me about my client's criminal history I'm not going to say "I reckon he ain't got none." and then cry about how everyone is "insulting my culture" when they laugh at me.

[BmorePat87]

(12-19-2019, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am saying that we have universal rules for our language.  Rules of proper grammar are not subjective moral judgements.  They are rules of proper grammar.

You can believe this following story or not, but I've been open here about my real name and where I work.  I'll back this up with exact details if you want.  Both of my parents were raised in poverty in rural eastern Kentucky/Tennessee.  Neither of them graduated from high school. They met in Ohio where they went to get jobs in the 50's.  Almost all of their friends were also poorly educated migrants from Appalachia who flooded Cincinnati/Dayton area. The bluegrass/country music we listened to used a lot of hillbilly language.  I was raised in a culture that not only used poor grammar, but in many situations glorified the redneck/hillbilly backwoods vernacular.  I always did very well in school, but I struggled for years to eliminate the bad grammar habits that were instilled in me by my culture. I am especially thankful for a friend I had in law school who was a big enough asshole to call out any grammatical error I made. I am proud that I know how to speak properly. 


When a judge askes me about my client's criminal history I'm not going to say "I reckon he ain't got none." and then cry about how everyone is "insulting my culture" when they laugh at me.

So I would be incorrect in using your story to suggest that white culture promotes improper grammar.

Thank you for making my point once again.

[fredtoast]

(12-20-2019, 10:00 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So I would be incorrect in using your story to suggest that white culture promotes improper grammar.

Thank you for making my point once again.

You would be incorrect because "Rural Appalachian Culture" is different from "White Culture".

Are you saying that "African American Studies" programs in Ivy League schools do not deal with "African American Culture"?

I can't be making your point because you don't even have a point.  You don't even understand the conversation we are having.  

[BmorePat87]

(12-20-2019, 11:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You would be incorrect because "Rural Appalachian Culture" is different from "White Culture".

Are you saying that "African American Studies" programs in Ivy League schools do not deal with "African American Culture"?

So you acknowledge that white culture is not homogenous but you refuse to say the same about black culture?

Thank you again for making my point. 

Quote:I can't be making your point because you don't even have a point.  You don't even understand the conversation we are having.  

A line like this is usually the last resort for someone who cannot actually make an argument. 

[fredtoast]

(12-20-2019, 04:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So you acknowledge that white culture is not homogenous but you refuse to say the same about black culture?

Thank you again for making my point. 

You don't even know what your point is.  First you claimed "Grammar is all subjective.  There is no 'right' or 'wrong'.", now you have switched around to "It is improper, but the ENTIRE black culture does not promote it."

Well here is the big difference.  The "hillbilly/redneck" culture is a minor strain of the white culture, while African American Vernacular English is popular all across the black community from the pulpits of churches to the nastiest rap songs and from the swamps of Florida to the streets of Harlem.

[BmorePat87]

(12-20-2019, 06:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You don't even know what your point is.  First you claimed "Grammar is all subjective.  There is no 'right' or 'wrong'.", now you have switched around to "It is improper, but the ENTIRE black culture does not promote it."

Well here is the big difference.  The "hillbilly/redneck" culture is a minor strain of the white culture, while African American Vernacular English is popular all across the black community from the pulpits of churches to the nastiest rap songs and from the swamps of Florida to the streets of Harlem.

I know exactly what my point is. You do too. You cannot generalize whole groups of people. You keep generalizing all black people as one homogenous group. You are continuing to do it. 

[*bfine32*]

Watching The Greenbook tonight makes me laugh as I think of this thread.

The piano player (who's black) speaks one way

The driver (who's white) speaks another

Of course I cannot comment on which one is well-spoken, cause that would be racist.

[Dill]

(12-19-2019, 07:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am saying that we have universal rules for our language.  Rules of proper grammar are not subjective moral judgements.  They are rules of proper grammar.

When a judge askes me about my client's criminal history I'm not going to say "I reckon he ain't got none." and then cry about how everyone is "insulting my culture" when they laugh at me.

We do not have universal rules for our language, unless by "universal" you mean protocols agreed upon in US schools and universities and other institutions, and which change and are otherwise "updated" over the years. True linguistic universals could neither be specific to one nation at one moment in history nor updated

And this is not an either/or--universal rules or "subjective moral judgments."

Your example is of a clash between a US dialect called "standard English" and one of the many non-standard dialects. 

When you treat the standard dialect as somehow "natural" by universalizing it, then you hide one way in which power is exercised in the US.
You also illustrate one way in which power is exercised and maintained, e.g., the internalization of dominant values/norms that comes with the dominant dialect and the self-policing which follows.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-21-2019, 01:29 AM)Dill Wrote: We do not have universal rules for our language, unless by "universal" you mean protocols agreed upon in US schools and universities and other institutions, and which change and are otherwise "updated" over the years.  True linguistic universals could neither be specific to one nation at one moment in history nor updated

And this is not an either/or--universal rules or "subjective moral judgments."

Your example is of a clash between a US dialect called "standard English" and one of the many non-standard dialects. 

When you treat the standard dialect as somehow "natural" by universalizing it, then you hide one way in which power is exercised in the US.
You also illustrate one way in which power is exercised and maintained, e.g., the internalization of dominant values/norms that comes with the dominant dialect and the self-policing which follows.

So your take is that double negatives being poor grammar isn't a universal rule, it is just a way in which power is exercised in the US?