We are all equal again, right?

[SunsetBengal]

With the Supreme Court ruling against the use of race as a factor in college admission, essentially striking down affirmative action, nobody will have to endure discrimination based upon their race or ethnic origin or be the beneficiary of special treatment or conditions because of their race or ethnicity, correct?

[GMDino]

Sure thing.  Generational racism and the affects that has on education and financial situations just went away.

Sure thing.

Or was this just you giggling about what kinds of responses you'd get?  Again.

Edit to add: Schools may not change anything when it comes to admissions but will probably have more white people suing claiming they were discriminated against due tot heir race. And of course more white conservatives using the only quote they know from MLK.

[*Nately120*]

Now everyone has equal access to going to college and paying 6 figures to be turned into a trans communist.  Also, undoing this now is a slap in the face to people like me who worked hard to overcome the deficit we were put in by being white. 

[hollodero]

This is dangerous territory I know, so I will say that in the end I understand the reasoning behind affirmative action and if it were up to me would opt for upholding that approach. You give a helping hand to people who as a group face distinct disadvantages that can be shown and proven. But I feel there's still a decent argument to be made that this is fighting discrimination with counter-discrimination, which can not be the end goal when striving for an equal society. Affirmative action emphasizes the racial disparities, creates an additional difference in treatment, is discriminatory in the literal sense of the word. And from that perspective, I don't know if affirmative action really is helpful in relieving tensions between the races.

And again I'm not saying that to advocate canning affirmative action, but just to express my belief that it is not necessarily nefarious to do so.

[Luvnit2]

This ruling is catching up with employment applications. The race and ethnicity box was eliminated a wrong time ago. We should not hire based on race. The EEOC is available for anyone who feels they were discriminated against for hiring, firing and mistreatment.

I am not sure why anyone would object to getting into collage based on merit and not the pigment of your skin. It is not like there not a lot of college choice options for everyone.

[*pally*]

Well yesterday the SCOTUS said "do not discriminate"

And today, they said it's ok to discriminate against gay folks

So everyone is equal unless someone doesn't like you.

Can't wait for the "we don't serve Muslims" sign or how about "whites only"

If you are allowed to discriminate in business against one American you can discriminate against any

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 12:21 PM)pally Wrote: Well yesterday the SCOTUS said "do not discriminate"

And today, they said it's ok to discriminate against gay folks

No, they didn't.  Such a gross oversimplification of the ruling.

Quote:So everyone is equal unless someone doesn't like you.

Can't wait for the "we don't serve Muslims" sign or how about "whites only"

Would the SCOTUS ruling allow for refusal based on religion or ethnicity?

Quote:If you are allowed to discriminate in business against one American you can discriminate against any

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Incorrect.  Hyperbolic post is hyperbolic.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

The responses on Twitter from leftists has been very interesting. You have some flat out saying black people can't get into elite institutions based solely on merit. I've mentioned this before, but some of the most racist people you'll ever meet are leftists who are "fighting for racial equality". The have such a low opinion of blacks and Hispanics that they can't conceive of them succeeding without special help. I know hundreds of college educated blacks and Hispanics personally who put the lie to that.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-30-2023, 12:21 PM)pally Wrote: Well yesterday the SCOTUS said "do not discriminate"

And today, they said it's ok to discriminate against gay folks

So everyone is equal unless someone doesn't like you.

Can't wait for the "we don't serve Muslims" sign or how about "whites only"

If you are allowed to discriminate in business against one American you can discriminate against any

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Would you be ok with a company refusing to create a website for the Klan or a cake with a swastka ? You can’t refuse to do business with a person, but you can refuse to create content you disagree with.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-30-2023, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The responses on Twitter from leftists has been very interesting. You have some flat out saying black people can't get into elite institutions based solely on merit. I've mentioned this before, but some of the most racist people you'll ever meet are leftists who are "fighting for racial equality". The have such a low opinion of blacks and Hispanics that they can't conceive of them succeeding without special help. I know hundreds of college educated blacks and Hispanics personally who put the lie to that.

Not being black I can’t say for sure, but I would think I wouldn’t be happy with the low opinion some white people have of me.

[*pally*]

(06-30-2023, 12:54 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Would you be ok with a company refusing to create a website for the Klan or a cake with a swastka ? You can’t refuse to do business with a person, but you can refuse to create content you disagree with.

The line has always been drawn for political speech.

Making a wedding website isn't political...she was claiming a religious exemption.  So what is stopping someone from claiming their sincerely held religious beliefs means they can't serve interracial or interfaith couples?  How about the restaurant owner who claims that in his sincerely held religious beliefs blacks and whites can't sit down to eat together so they have to have separate dining rooms?

This is a country of civil laws.  We are not supposed to have a state-sponsored religion.  But, this SCOTUS seems to be going out of the way to put people's Christian religious beliefs over and above our civil laws.  

So yeah, color me doubtful, that this decision is where they stop.  They are bound and determined to take this country back to the days when the only people who were truly equal were white, straight, males.

And people wonder why minorities and women and up in arms.  We see where this is going

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 12:55 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Not being black I can’t say for sure, but I would think I wouldn’t be happy with the low opinion some white people have of me.

It's interesting because they'll say insanely racist things, they just aren't overtly racist.  There's a saying about the soft racism of low expectations, and I see it on display in CA on a daily basis.  My only issue with the saying is it's not soft racism, it's just racism.

[GMDino]

(06-30-2023, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The responses on Twitter from leftists has been very interesting.  You have some flat out saying black people can't get into elite institutions based solely on merit.  I've mentioned this before, but some of the most racist people you'll ever meet are leftists who are "fighting for racial equality".  The have such a low opinion of blacks and Hispanics that they can't conceive of them succeeding without special help.  I know hundreds of college educated blacks and Hispanics personally who put the lie to that.

Lame, again. Wait let me guess:

You once met Eddie Murphy and you have a black cousin-in-law so its all cool.

If someone who you think is a "leftist" says a person can't get in on merit due to their race that isn't saying the person has a low opinion of the minority but rather that despite their high opinion of them some at the school is weeding them out due to race.

If I think Tom, Mike and Bob all are great and have equal merits but only Tom and Mike get into a school and Bob (who is Hispanic) doesn't and I say they were equally deserving how is that me having a low opinion of the minority? 

Way to try and spin that one.  

You need to get out of that LA smog and clear your head.  Maybe there's still some liberal part of your brain that needs fresh air.

Besides you said you don't use social media so I can't imagine how much you saw. 

[HarleyDog]

(06-30-2023, 01:21 PM)pally Wrote: So yeah, color me doubtful, that this decision is where they stop.  They are bound and determined to take this country back to the days when the only people who were truly equal were white, straight, males.

I like how extreme left people are racist against me because I'm a white, straight male. I've done nothing to them. I've struggled with shit my whole life, but thanks for reminding me how great I've had it and how I want to be supreme again. 

Pathetic!

[*michaelsean*]

(06-30-2023, 01:21 PM)pally Wrote: The line has always been drawn for political speech.

Making a wedding website isn't political...she was claiming a religious exemption.  So what is stopping someone from claiming their sincerely held religious beliefs means they can't serve interracial or interfaith couples?  How about the restaurant owner who claims that in his sincerely held religious beliefs blacks and whites can't sit down to eat together so they have to have separate dining rooms?

This is a country of civil laws.  We are not supposed to have a state-sponsored religion.  But, this SCOTUS seems to be going out of the way to put people's Christian religious beliefs over and above our civil laws.  

So yeah, color me doubtful, that this decision is where they stop.  They are bound and determined to take this country back to the days when the only people who were truly equal were white, straight, males.

And people wonder why minorities and women and up in arms.  We see where this is going

They didn't limit it to Christians.  That's who happened to bring the suit.  A Jewish bakery can say they aren't comfortable making a Christian themed cake.  A website designer can decide not to make a pro-life website.  It applies to everyone.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 01:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Lame, again.  Wait let me guess:  

You once met Eddie Murphy and you have a black cousin-in-law so its all cool.  

If someone who you think is a "leftist" says a person can't get in on merit due to their race that isn't saying the person has a low opinion of the minority but rather that despite their high opinion of them some at the school is weeding them out due to race.

Thank you for providing a real time example of the soft racism I was describing.  Also, where did Eddie Murphy come from?  But, since you asked, I am often the only white person in my unit.  Out of the hundreds of people I have supervised in my department only three of them have been white, only one Asian with the rest being black and Hispanic.  This doesn't even count when I was a field officer for over ten years.

Quote:If I think Tom, Mike and Bob all are great and have equal merits but only Tom and Mike get into a school and Bob (who is Hispanic) doesn't and I say they were equally deserving how is that me having a low opinion of the minority? 

Way to try and spin that one.  

Assuming you can find a case where three people have completely identical GPA's, extracurriculars, etc. and only two got in, they got in on merit.  The one who did not would have a legitimate grievance if someone with less merit was selected ahead of him.  This is not complicated.

Quote:You need to get out of that LA smog and clear your head.  Maybe there's still some liberal part of your brain that needs fresh air.

Besides you said you don't use social media so I can't imagine how much you saw. 

Ohh, you're back to personal attacks.  It must be a rough day.  As for using social media, I don't.  I rarely post anything.  I do read Twitter and I do check in on my friend's Instagram's, but that's about it.  I maybe tweet once a month and I haven't posted on Instagram in over a year.  But maybe the LA smog is "fogging" my memory.  (get it?!)

[*michaelsean*]

(06-30-2023, 01:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Lame, again.  Wait let me guess:  

You once met Eddie Murphy and you have a black cousin-in-law so its all cool.  

If someone who you think is a "leftist" says a person can't get in on merit due to their race that isn't saying the person has a low opinion of the minority but rather that despite their high opinion of them some at the school is weeding them out due to race.

If I think Tom, Mike and Bob all are great and have equal merits but only Tom and Mike get into a school and Bob (who is Hispanic) doesn't and I say they were equally deserving how is that me having a low opinion of the minority? 

Way to try and spin that one.  

You need to get out of that LA smog and clear your head.  Maybe there's still some liberal part of your brain that needs fresh air.

Besides you said you don't use social media so I can't imagine how much you saw. 

Well they were weeding them out based on their race, but it was the race it's cool to do that to. Actual individuals. Not a monolith.  And remember this doesn't say they can weed out Bob.  It says they can't weed out Tom and Mike. Personally I couldn't care less about AA.  I got into school, my wife did and my kids did.  It's probably more of an issue in the Ivies and schools like that, and again I couldn't care less about what goes on in those places.  

But are we really afraid that colleges are going to start weeding out people of color?  They are the ones pissed off about this, and they said this is going to reduce diversity. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 10:51 AM)hollodero Wrote: This is dangerous territory I know, so I will say that in the end I understand the reasoning behind affirmative action and if it were up to me would opt for upholding that approach. You give a helping hand to people who as a group face distinct disadvantages that can be shown and proven. But I feel there's still a decent argument to be made that this is fighting discrimination with counter-discrimination, which can not be the end goal when striving for an equal society. Affirmative action emphasizes the racial disparities, creates an additional difference in treatment, is discriminatory in the literal sense of the word. And from that perspective, I don't know if affirmative action really is helpful in relieving tensions between the races.

And again I'm not saying that to advocate canning affirmative action, but just to express my belief that it is not necessarily nefarious to do so.

I'm sure it was well intentioned when it was enacted.  But, like most things the unintended consequences started piling up.  When uber qualified white and Asian students are routinely rejected for black and Hispanic students with far lesser credentials you are creating the very inequality you wanted to fight in the first place.  A better use of such efforts would be setting up scholarships for disadvantaged students so their economic situation is better upon graduating.  But freezing out certain groups to enable others is textbook discrimination. 

[BengalYankee]

(06-30-2023, 01:36 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They didn't limit it to Christians.  That's who happened to bring the suit.  A Jewish bakery can say they aren't comfortable making a Christian themed cake.  A website designer can decide not to make a pro-life website.  It applies to everyone.  

[hollodero]

(06-30-2023, 01:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm sure it was well intentioned when it was enacted.  But, like most things the unintended consequences started piling up.  When uber qualified white and Asian students are routinely rejected for black and Hispanic students with far lesser credentials you are creating the very inequality you wanted to fight in the first place.

Sure, I get that point, it is well taken. A somewhat countering argument might be that said white (plus maybe asian, I leave them out for I don't know) students in general stem from wealthier backgrounds, which allows them to actually study and not worry about much else to achieve said credentials, while the black student also has to work to make ends meet, can't afford tutoring as easily, and so on. And of course that this initial situation, the white ones in general being wealthier, in the overall perspective stems from past and present racial injustice that a society wants to correct or compensate for. For sure, in this case by creating a counter-inequality, hoping that as a whole the inequalities equal out, which is tricky. Especially for the white individual that understandably feels treated unfairly if a black student takes his/her place solely because of skin color. I don't know how to weigh these aspects against each other really.

For what happens now that affirmative action is disallowed - it might very well lead to black communities falling further behind again, which creates tensions and is a bad starting point for creating a truely equal society. If it were up to me, I might consider an approach that allows for race ratios in the colleges that reflect the ratio in the overall regions' populace, which is not ideal, but might be the best compromise to be had. For me, anyways, even though it indeed comes with actual discrimination.

Are scholarships a good workaround, I don't know, especially when given out to black/hispanic students only. One could interpret this approach as reestablishing affirmative action through the back door.