We are all equal again, right?

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 01:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well they were weeding them out based on their race, but it was the race it's cool to do that to. Actual individuals. Not a monolith.  And remember this doesn't say they can weed out Bob.  It says they can't weed out Tom and Mike. Personally I couldn't care less about AA.  I got into school, my wife did and my kids did.  It's probably more of an issue in the Ivies and schools like that, and again I couldn't care less about what goes on in those places.  

But are we really afraid that colleges are going to start weeding out people of color?  They are the ones pissed off about this, and they said this is going to reduce diversity. 

The thing about this diversity/quota stuff is that it is complete crap.

All that should matter is who is the better qualified candidate.  I couldn't care less if a company or a school is 90% black/white/asian, etc.   As long as they got in/got hired because they had the best grades/most experience, etc.

Businesses and colleges should not be handcuffed by having to deal with diversity.  Hire/admit based on merit.  Period.   Full stop.

And I will say this also.  How are you going to have even remotely equal representation?  How is that possible.  Do people not understand simple basic math?  76% white  14% black  19% Hispanic     Single digits after that.  Now someone please explain to me how you are ever going to have an even remotely close to equal representation in college or the workplace with those percentages.  It defies basic logic and math.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 02:56 PM)hollodero Wrote: Sure, I get that point, it is well taken. A somewhat countering argument might be that said white (plus maybe asian, I leave them out for I don't know) students in general stem from wealthier backgrounds, which allows them to actually study and not worry about much else to achieve said credentials, while the black student also has to work to make ends meet, can't afford tutoring as easily, and so on. And of course that this initial situation, the white ones in general being wealthier, in the overall perspective stems from past and present racial injustice that a society wants to correct or compensate for. For sure, in this case by creating a counter-inequality, hoping that as a whole the inequalities equal out, which is tricky. Especially for the white individual that understandably feels treated unfairly if a black student takes his/her place solely because of skin color. I don't know how to weigh these aspects against each other really.

My position is you can't solve inequality with more inequality.  Lower income students includes more white people than any other ethnicity.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/poverty-rates-for-blacks-and-hispanics-reached-historic-lows-in-2019.html

The percentage is lower but the overall numbers are greater.  A dirt poor white kid will still take a back seat to a wealthy black or Hispanic kid.  Now, if you want to start a certain percentage of admittants need to be under a certain income level, I'd be for that, as long as you eliminated any possible means of discerning the person's ethnicity.

The problem though, is this isn't an income only issue.  Why do dirt poor whites score on par with the wealthiest black students?

https://johnmjennings.com/race-income-and-college-admission-testing/



You'll note that white students whose families make less than $20k a year score 478 math and 480 verbal.  Contrast that with a black student whose family makes more than $100k, 490 math and 495 verbal.  That's shocking, is it not?  So the real question is why this disparity?  A black student from a wealthy family has far more opportunity than a dirt poor white kid.  So why are their test scores nearly identical?  Before some bad faith actor (not you, you're not like that) tries to claim I'm making some eugenics based argument, I most certainly am not.  I am asking why this discrepancy exists, because the answer will likely contain a sold solution.

Quote:For what happens now that affirmative action is disallowed - it might very well lead to black communities falling further behind again, which creates tensions and is a bad starting point for creating a truely equal society. If it were up to me, I might consider an approach that allows for race ratios in the colleges that reflect the ratio in the overall regions' populace, which is not ideal, but might be the best compromise to be had. For me, anyways, even though it indeed comes with actual discrimination.

But again, you can't address inequality by creating more inequality.  A ratio that reflects the local populace would run into the same issues if the root causes are not addressed.  As we can determine from the above, income does not seem to be a prime factor.

Quote:Are scholarships a good workaround, I don't know, especially when given out to black/hispanic students only. One could interpret this approach as reestablishing affirmative action through the back door.

They wouldn't affect the opportunity of anyone, they'd only give an economic head start to those who tend to come from economically depressed families.  Which is far from insignificant IMO.

[*Nately120*]

As a dumbass lefty I felt inclined to disagree with this, but hearing a lot of the white people I know express their views on science and education these past few years makes me realize it's time to even the playing field and make it easier for white people to get into college again.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 03:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: As a dumbass lefty I felt inclined to disagree with this, but hearing a lot of the white people I know express their views on science and education these past few years makes me realize it's time to even the playing field and make it easier for white people to get into college again.

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.  

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 03:35 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.  

I said I was a dumbass lefty, not that it was a problem.  

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 03:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I said I was a dumbass lefty, not that it was a problem.  

Oh well, I thought progress was being made.  My bad.  

I hope you realize I am just joking around.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: My position is you can't solve inequality with more inequality.  Lower income students includes more white people than any other ethnicity.

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2020/09/poverty-rates-for-blacks-and-hispanics-reached-historic-lows-in-2019.html

The percentage is lower but the overall numbers are greater.  A dirt poor white kid will still take a back seat to a wealthy black or Hispanic kid.  Now, if you want to start a certain percentage of admittants need to be under a certain income level, I'd be for that, as long as you eliminated any possible means of discerning the person's ethnicity.

The problem though, is this isn't an income only issue.  Why do dirt poor whites score on par with the wealthiest black students?

https://johnmjennings.com/race-income-and-college-admission-testing/



You'll note that white students whose families make less than $20k a year score 478 math and 480 verbal.  Contrast that with a black student whose family makes more than $100k, 490 math and 495 verbal.  That's shocking, is it not?  So the real question is why this disparity?  A black student from a wealthy family has far more opportunity than a dirt poor white kid.  So why are their test scores nearly identical?  Before some bad faith actor (not you, you're not like that) tries to claim I'm making some eugenics based argument, I most certainly am not.  I am asking why this discrepancy exists, because the answer will likely contain a sold solution.



But again, you can't address inequality by creating more inequality.  A ratio that reflects the local populace would run into the same issues if the root causes are not addressed.  As we can determine from the above, income does not seem to be a prime factor.


They wouldn't affect the opportunity of anyone, they'd only give an economic head start to those who tend to come from economically depressed families.  Which is far from insignificant IMO.

So what do you think is the cause of the disparity in the chart?

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 03:44 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Oh well, I thought progress was being made.  My bad.  

Progress will be made when more white dudes like me go to college and get turned into dumbass lefties now that the playing field is equal again.  

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 03:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Progress will be made when more white dudes like me go to college and get turned into dumbass lefties now that the playing field is equal again.  

[hollodero]

(06-30-2023, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: My position is you can't solve inequality with more inequality.

I think to an extent you can, at least temporarily, without it being part of the end goal. And to an extent, avoiding all appearances of inequality can cement preexisting inequalities. Maybe not in this case though.

(06-30-2023, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   Lower income students includes more white people than any other ethnicity.

Yeah well, that is not surprising to me since there are so many more white people overall. I'd say it's the percentages that matter, not the total number.

(06-30-2023, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The percentage is lower but the overall numbers are greater.  A dirt poor white kid will still take a back seat to a wealthy black or Hispanic kid.  Now, if you want to start a certain percentage of admittants need to be under a certain income level, I'd be for that, as long as you eliminated any possible means of discerning the person's ethnicity.

That did not occur to me as of now. But sure, seems like a better approach than mine at least.

(06-30-2023, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll note that white students whose families make less than $20k a year score 478 math and 480 verbal.  Contrast that with a black student whose family makes more than $100k, 490 math and 495 verbal.  That's shocking, is it not?  So the real question is why this disparity? 

I was not aware of that and I have no idea why that is. I could come up with half-baked theories regarding the verbal score - it seems to me there is something like white language and black language, after all, and a test might advantage the former - but I'll have to wait for someone way more versed on this to answer that. All I could say to that would probably be ignorant nonsense. Is it possible that even quite poor white children can attend better schools in white neighbourhoods? That's the best I can do. Any theories on your part?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 03:45 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: So what do you think is the cause of the disparity in the chart?

(06-30-2023, 04:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: I think to an extent you can, at least temporarily, without it being part of the end goal. And to an extent, avoiding all appearances of inequality can cement preexisting inequalities. Maybe not in this case though.

Define temporarily.  That's going to be your biggest sticking point.

Quote:Yeah well, that is not surprising to me since there are so many more white people overall. I'd say it's the percentages that matter, not the total number.

That doesn't matter to the dirt poor white kid who is denied opportunity based solely on the color of their skin.

Quote:That did not occur to me as of now. But sure, seems like a better approach than mine at least.

Quote:I was not aware of that and I have no idea why that is. I could come up with half-baked theories regarding the verbal score - it seems to me there is something like white language and black language, after all, and a test might advantage the former - but I'll have to wait for someone way more versed on this to answer that. All I could say to that would probably be ignorant nonsense. Is it possible that even quite poor white children can attend better schools in white neighbourhoods? That's the best I can do. Any theories on your part?

I'll address both your and Mickey's question in this regard here.  Obviously this is a minefield of a topic to navigate, especially for those inclined to view thigs as negatively as possible.  I have had this discussion with several black friends, all with college degrees.  Their general consensus has been that being educated is seen by many as trying to be white, and consequently education is not viewed as desirable.  There is a perception of a "correct way" to be black and deviating from it is viewed negatively.  You saw a small excerpt of that in regard to Cori Bush's comments on a GOP lawmaker who is also black.

Is that the main reason?  I certainly don't know.  I can't even say if it's largely true, although based on personal experience I would say there's some truth to it.  But whatever the root cause(s) is/are it's clearly not being addressed.  Maybe not even being sought after by many.  Race is such a sensitive topic now it's difficult to find adults who will even have an honest conversation about it.  That just wasn't the case for most of my life.  I have a biracial friend (white mom, black father) whose become an extremely militant racist over the past three years.  I never would have thought it of him, but these times have wrought very unwelcome changes in many people.

[CJD]

It will be interesting to see how this decision impacts admissions to colleges across the country. Right now the ethnicity statistics for Harvard's 2026 class are as follows

Quote: Ethnicity

African American 15.2%

Asian American 27.9%

Hispanic or Latino 12.6%

Native American 2.9%

Native Hawaiian 0.8%

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/admissions-statistics

They don't list it, but assume that means 40.6% of the class is white. It's interesting that the website doesn't list any white ethnicities in this breakdown but whatever. I'm sure it was just an honest oversight.

I wouldn't be surprised if these numbers dropped dramatically or if they stayed roughly the same. Diversity is a focus of liberals anyway so there's at least a chance that they'll still consider race (to the benefit of minorities) even though affirmative action is no longer a thing.

[Mickeypoo]

(06-30-2023, 04:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Define temporarily.  That's going to be your biggest sticking point.



That doesn't matter to the dirt poor white kid who is denied opportunity based solely on the color of their skin.








I'll address both your and Mickey's question in this regard here.  Obviously this is a minefield of a topic to navigate, especially for those inclined to view thigs as negatively as possible.  I have had this discussion with several black friends, all with college degrees.  Their general consensus has been that being educated is seen by many as trying to be white, and consequently education is not viewed as desirable.  There is a perception of a "correct way" to be black and deviating from it is viewed negatively.  You saw a small excerpt of that in regard to Cori Bush's comments on a GOP lawmaker who is also black.

Is that the main reason?  I certainly don't know.  I can't even say if it's largely true, although based on personal experience I would say there's some truth to it.  But whatever the root cause(s) is/are it's clearly not being addressed.  Maybe not even being sought after by many.  Race is such a sensitive topic now it's difficult to find adults who will even have an honest conversation about it.  That just wasn't the case for most of my life.  I have a biracial friend (white mom, black father) whose become an extremely militant racist over the past three years.  I never would have thought it of him, but these times have wrought very unwelcome changes in many people.

Geez, I hope that is not true!  Can you imagine most of an entire race of people thinking it's bad to be educated because they don't want to appear to be like race "X"?

You are correct.  Any serious conversation would have to include all kinds of possibilities to be discussed and fleshed out/debated and too many people are simply not capable without getting offended/mad.

[hollodero]

(06-30-2023, 04:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Define temporarily.  That's going to be your biggest sticking point.

Yeah, that is the tricky part. It's probably a political question - eg what society feels is right - rather than one that can be clearly determined by socioeconomic data points.
It's just, as of now I see strong indications that being black still means a distinct disadvantage, and as long as it's as distinct as it seems to be now, I see a decent point for affirmative action. And the time to get rid of it is when it's less distinct, when the effects of generation-long wealth accumulation that was not possible for most black people are further diminished. To what point, I dare not say. I am aware this is not a satisfactory answer. I just don't think affirmative action is something to be avoided in principle under any circumstances, while it's also not a fix made for eternity.

(06-30-2023, 04:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That doesn't matter to the dirt poor white kid who is denied opportunity based solely on the color of their skin.

That is definitely true and I am very well aware of that. It's unfair to that kid. But at times (maybe not in this case, sure) a greater good for many or say a society outweighs the grievances of the few. I know star trek taught me differently, but it's how I feel.

(06-30-2023, 04:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll address both your and Mickey's question in this regard here.  Obviously this is a minefield of a topic to navigate, especially for those inclined to view thigs as negatively as possible.  I have had this discussion with several black friends, all with college degrees.  Their general consensus has been that being educated is seen by many as trying to be white, and consequently education is not viewed as desirable.  There is a perception of a "correct way" to be black and deviating from it is viewed negatively.  You saw a small excerpt of that in regard to Cori Bush's comments on a GOP lawmaker who is also black.

Is that the main reason?  I certainly don't know.

Yeah it's a minefield, I'm aware, but I have a real-life reputation for constantly stepping on those, so I don't mind. I was close to add cultural reasons myself, just didn't think it was true. And I have a hard time believing that what you assume is true. This is about people actually attending school, after all. I could see in theory that in certain cultures getting an education is frowned upon and this might deter people from going to school beyond what is mandatory in the first place. But I can't quite fathom that it is ok to go to school and to try to attend college, but not ok to do good and get good grades there. That is a bridge too far for me. But then again, I'm from way abroad and can't possibly assess that.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 04:52 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah, that is the tricky part. It's probably a political question - eg what society feels is right - rather than one that can be clearly determined by socioeconomic data points.
It's just, as of now I see strong indications that being black still means a distinct disadvantage, and as long as it's as distinct as it seems to be now, I see a decent point for affirmative action. And the time to get rid of it is when it's less distinct, when the effects of generation-long wealth accumulation that was not possible for most black people are further diminished. To what point, I dare not say. I am aware this is not a satisfactory answer. I just don't think affirmative action is something to be avoided in principle under any circumstances, while it's also not a fix made for eternity.

If we're going by what society feels than SCOTUS did the right thing by them.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/affirmative-action-supreme-court-college-admissions-opinion-poll-2023-06-21/

Quote:That is definitely true and I am very well aware of that. It's unfair to that kid. But at times (maybe not in this case, sure) a greater good for many or say a society outweighs the grievances of the few. I know star trek taught me differently, but it's how I feel.

Injustice is injustice.  I'd much rather find ways to lift people up without pushing others down as a consequence.

Quote:Yeah it's a minefield, I'm aware, but I have a real-life reputation for constantly stepping on those, so I don't mind. I was close to add cultural reasons myself, just didn't think it was true. And I have a hard time believing that what you assume is true. This is about people actually attending college, after all. I could see in theory that in certain cultures getting an education is frowned upon and this might deter people from going to college in the first place. But I can't quite fathom that it is ok to go to college, but not ok to get good grades there. That is a bridge too far for me. But then again, I'm from way abroad and can't possibly assess that.

I think there's a misunderstanding happening here.  I was answering as to why the gap between black and white student test scores, and why the poorest whites score on par with the wealthiest blacks.  Obviously education is important to someone willing to go to college, but you also have to educate yourself on the way there.  So my response was solely addressing the test score gap and closeness to scores at wildly varying income levels.

[hollodero]

(06-30-2023, 05:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If we're going by what society feels than SCOTUS did the right thing by them.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/affirmative-action-supreme-court-college-admissions-opinion-poll-2023-06-21/

Hm, what society feels is one aspect, but maybe not the only one, especially when it's as narrow as in this poll. Minority rights probably outweigh the will of the majority at times, though this is tricky terrain.

(06-30-2023, 05:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Injustice is injustice.  I'd much rather find ways to lift people up without pushing others down as a consequence.

Sure. It's just questionable to me if such ways are realistically to be found as a quick fix.

(06-30-2023, 05:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think there's a misunderstanding happening here.  I was answering as to why the gap between black and white student test scores, and why the poorest whites score on par with the wealthiest blacks.  Obviously education is important to someone willing to go to college, but you also have to educate yourself on the way there.  So my response was solely addressing the test score gap and closeness to scores at wildly varying income levels.

I think I got that... but that's never a certainty of course. I assumed though that these test scores are taken from folks that apply for college, hence are willing to get higher education. If the reason for the gap in these scores were that education is often frowned upon within black communities, then why would these people apply in the first place. Or apply for college even though education was not important to them on the way there because of cultural peer pressure. It doesn't quite add up for me.

Or say the explanation that even poor white kids might often attend better schools in their neighbourhoods than not so poor black folks in theirs seems a bit more logical to me.

[Lucidus]

(06-30-2023, 12:21 PM)pally Wrote: Well yesterday the SCOTUS said "do not discriminate"

And today, they said it's ok to discriminate against gay folks

So everyone is equal unless someone doesn't like you.

Can't wait for the "we don't serve Muslims" sign or how about "whites only"

If you are allowed to discriminate in business against one American you can discriminate against any

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Indeed. The Court's 303 Creative decision has basically perverted free speech in such a way that it provides a path to legal discrimination. 

[SunsetBengal]

(06-30-2023, 06:14 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Indeed. The Court's 303 Creative decision has basically perverted free speech in such a way that it provides a path to legal discrimination. 

It does not, that is your personal interpretation of the ruling and what it does/does not allow.  It simply says that an individual may refuse to provide their services to other individuals in circumstances where doing so may put them against their religious beliefs.  In the ever so popular example of the baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a homosexual couple, is it worse to force a Christian or Muslim baker to defy their beliefs or to simply ask the same sex couple to seek another who might be happy to provide the cake for their ceremony?

[Lucidus]

(06-30-2023, 06:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It does not, that is your personal interpretation of the ruling and what it does/does not allow.  It simply says that an individual may refuse to provide their services to other individuals in circumstances where doing so may put them against their religious beliefs.  In the ever so popular example of the baker refusing to make a wedding cake for a homosexual couple, is it worse to force a Christian or Muslim baker to defy their beliefs or to simply ask the same sex couple to seek another who might be happy to provide the cake for their ceremony?

Should a business have the right to deny service to African-Americans if they assert a religious objection?

[SunsetBengal]

(06-30-2023, 06:48 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Should a business have the right to deny service to African-Americans if they assert a religious objection?

That hypothetical makes no sense.  However, I will say no because refusing services on the basis of race or ethnicity is not only illegal in this country, but in my opinion it is immoral. (yet some still do..)  Now, how you are going to tie discrimination based upon race to refusing service on account of religious beliefs should be interesting reading.