(11-19-2015, 01:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Westboro baptist church is 25 people. Radical Muslims are hundreds of millions.
(11-19-2015, 01:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not sure what the KKK has to do with being a christian. I must have missed the lesson that we were supposed to hate someone that was a different color. Being a racist has nothing to do with your religion unless the religion states that you are to judge someone by the color of their skin.
If you truly don't know that the KKK is a "Christian" organization you need to read more. If you are in denial that people haven't used the Christian Bible to support their racist and sexist beliefs for centuries I can't help you.
(11-19-2015, 01:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Bfine posted a video somewhere that had a good response on moderates not speaking up and how irrelevant they were. You probably won't like it but there is a good point in there.
I don't have issues with moderate Muslims other than I think they should be pushing for a reformation to a more moderate Islam.
They do speak out. You want to ignore it or say its not enough, that's all.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
If you truly don't know that the KKK is a "Christian" organization you need to read more. If you are in denial that people haven't used the Christian Bible to support their racist and sexist beliefs for centuries I can't help you.
They do speak out. You want to ignore it or say its not enough, that's all.
Ok please share where in the bible it says I should be a racist to go to heaven. Maybe I have missed that lesson.
We are a majority christian nation by a significant amount. So it's very reasonable to assume that most groups have a majority christian membership. This does not make them christian.
Now Islamic fundamentalists use Islam and direct teachings to oppress others and to kill anyone that are not like them . Which is why Islam needs a reformation, and that can only come from the moderates calling for one and making it happen.
(11-19-2015, 03:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Ok please share where in the bible it says I should be a racist to go to heaven. Maybe I have missed that lesson.
We are a majority christian nation by a significant amount. So it's very reasonable to assume that most groups have a majority christian membership. This does not make them christian.
Now Islamic fundamentalists use Islam and direct teachings to oppress others and to kill anyone that are not like them . Which is why Islam needs a reformation, and that can only come from the moderates calling for one and making it happen.
Welcome! Follow more conversations about racial justice and Christianity throughemailor RSS feed.
Christianity could be a major force for racial reconciliation, yet it's track record isn't so hot. Scripture and doctrine have been used to perpetuate and justify racism, and there are consequences for our modern witness.
We are all familiar with the practice of cherry picking verses to hijack the bible into defending our own views. Certainly, racialized agendas are no exception. It doesn't help, though, that the bible provides no explicit condemnation of slavery, while providing a litany of guidelines that seem to condone the practice. The general scriptural take-away seems to be, 'if you are going to have slaves, here is how you should do it,' which opens the way for statements such as this one:
Quote:"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts."Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America
Although Christians were certainly sold into slavery in the early church, it should not come as a surprise that we preferentially unfettered ourselves as we gained global influence.
One of the most famous examples of biblical justification of racism is the mark of Cain. The story goes that Cain (the first person actually conceived and born on earth) murdered his little brother and tried to cover it up (not easy to do when you are dealing with an omniscient God). God curses Cain, basically saying he won't be able to work for a living. Cain thinks that's a bit rough, and that people will try and kill him as a result. So God 'marks' him so that folks won't kill him.
To me, this makes the mark sound like a good thing, yet a lot of people understand the mark to be part of the curse. Furthermore, though there is no indication whether mark is physical or metaphysical, some believe the it to be black skin, and that the mark, the curse, and the violent behavior are forever heritable. Yikes! Not such a great reputation with which to start out the entire history of mankind/race relations.
One of the most popular biblical stories is also the one most often used to justify white racial superiority. After he disembarked from his 40-day cruise, Noah went a little wild in his celebrations, resulting in a bit of indecent exposure whilst passed out on the floor. Noah's son, Ham, walked in on him and saw the display. Rather than covering Noah, Ham went and blabbed all about it. When Noah recovered from his bender, he was not pleased with Ham and so he cursed Ham's son: “Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers” (Genesis 9:25). Eventually the Canaanites did indeed become slaves to the Jews, so end of story, right? Nah...
Some claim that people with dark skin descended from Ham, while white folks came from Japheth and Asians came from Shem. Ham's name is thought to translate to 'black /dark,' and his descendants populated North-East Africa (Cush's descendants populated Sudan, Mizraim to Egypt, Phut to Libya, while Canaan's folks went to Israel). Again, the claim here is that both the skin, the curse, and the seedy disposition are heritable.
But of course modern race is so much more complicated than these simple lineages would suggest. We have mixed so much since then that there is little practical justification for such a delineation. Not to mention, it is actually Canaan that is cursed, not his African brothers!
Although neither the mark of Cain, nor the curse of Ham are often used as justification of racism anymore, these story lines have laid the foundation for modern pseudoscience racismand the belief in heritable social ill based on skin color. Add the many verses in the bible that negatively reference blackness, and positively mention whiteness, and we have a real mess ofmicroaggressive conditioning.
For example, look at Song of Solomon 1:5-6, famously 'Nigra sum nformosa': I am black, yet lovely. Indeed, it does not read, 'I am black and therefore lovely', or even 'I am black and also lovely,' but rather, 'even though I am black, I am lovely'--in spite of my skin color, I am attractive. All sorts of cultural and translational factors are at play here, yet the messageremains, along with a litany of verses that implysimilarracialvalueswhich can inadvertently reaffirm our modern biases.
Wait, is that snow blue?
From these verses, stem so many of our modern worship songs and hymns that we hear all the time:
"Oh, precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow
No other fount I know
Nothing but the blood of Jesus"
In a racialized world such as ours, we must be careful how we sing about black and white in our sanctuaries (see also 'Jesus Paid It All). Recognize thatlanguage has power, and when we sing words like this, we reinforce biases that affect relationships with those around us.
I am not claiming that these verses are the origins of modern racism, nor should we deny/ignore their existence in scripture. Instead, we need to put them in their proper context and have a sensitive understanding about how they are heard with modern ears. Their original meaning is very much in line with the Kingdom, but their current use may not be so in line with God’s will.
Our default, white, Jesus
Religious practice is subject to the same prejudices as any other human institution. Racialized language is all over our general lexicon (white lie, white hats vs black list, black plague ect). It is important to note how much our religious talk still tows this line. We are supposed to stand apart, to offer sanctuary. Instead, we are sluggish to change, and cling to the status quo, regardless of it's hurtful nature. We ignore the painful nature of these verses, rather than examining them, and discussing them in the context of today's world.
The consequence is that many marginalized groups in this country have sought solace in secular organizations. Far too many understand the Church as a hostile and unwelcoming organization, rather than one of comfort. Much of this altitude stems from the Church's history with race, it's persistence in continued abrasive behavior, and a lack of a coherent effort to reconcile past hurts.
There are many verses that contradict the attitudes that stem from these few examples. Plenty
of scripture that promotes diversity, unity, and reconciliation. So as we go about our worship, let us be mindful of our language. Examine the songs we sing, the pictures we hang, the metaphors we use, the assumptions we carry.
White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux KlanThe Klan believes Whites are superior to the Non-Whites. When someone comes to a Klansman and makes the comment, ‘we are all God’s creation and the only difference in the Race’s is the color of the skin’, we tell them that they are partially correct. God is the creator, and he did create us all, but there is a world of difference between the races besides skin color.Why are so many people bent on promoting race-mixing and racial equality? Because, it is Satan’s goal to have us violate our Heavenly Father’s law on mixing our seed with the other people of the world. What use to be wrong is now right. What use to be bad is now good. Our world has been turned upside down and we have only ourselves to blame for being so gullible.
...
White people have practiced segregation throughout History. It is conclusive to believe this due to the fact the White Race has flourished throughout History rather than dwindling such as we are during this time of accepted race-mixing. The inequalities of the Races have never been more apparent than that in the Bible. Here are just a few Bible scriptures:Exodus 33:16 "So shall we be separated: I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the Earth"Leviticus 20:24 " I am the Lord they God which have separated you from other people"Joshua 23:12-13 "If you do in any way go back and cleave unto the remnants of these Nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them and they unto you: Know for a certainty That there shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your side and thornes in your eyes. Until ye perish off from this good land which the Lord your God has given you."The list goes on and on: Deuteronomy 7:3, Proverbs 23:27, Psalm 144:11-12, Hosea 5:6-7. So We, the True Chosen people of God, the True Tribes of Israel, are commanded not to Race mix. We are NOT EQUAL IN THE EYES OF YAHWEH.Do you recall the story in the Bible about the two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah? Well guess what, it is happening again today. Non-White cultures, Race-mixing, drug abuse, disease, Homosexuality, and criminals plague our cities. We, as a Nation of White Christians, have turned from Yahweh’s law and have embraced Satanic Order. Our punishment is the society in which we live today.
Burying your head in the sand and denying the truth will get you nowhere.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
That what I said. That's what you asked for proof of. That's what I provided.
Anything else you require?
He did ask for proof that the Bible said you should be a racist to go to Heaven. Even if that said you must be a racist to go to Heaven, which is doesn't, through God's grace all things are possible. So being a racist would not be required to go to Heaven.
(11-19-2015, 05:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: He did ask for proof that the Bible said you should be a racist to go to Heaven. Even if that said you must be a racist to go to Heaven, which is doesn't, through God's grace all things are possible. So being a racist would not be required to go to Heaven.
Just saying.
I saw his qualifier...but that was not what I proposed. I'm sure he'll try and squirm out of it.
The White Camelia Knights of the Ku Klux Klan is a Christian Identity Klan. I realize that most people have no understanding into what Christian Identity means.Identity Christian simply implies that we identify our race as being the true descendants of the Israelite people. I understand that most people have been educated to believe that the jewish people are God’s chosen people. Christians have even gone as far as to call themselves judeo-christians, they become extremely hostile at the Klan whenever this subject is mentioned. But, we are followers of Christ and even if our beliefs are unpopular, they are still correct. I am constantly told that Christ was a jew. That Moses and Abraham were jews, but, this belief is incorrect.
...
It’s clear to me, just from reading the Old and New Testaments of the Bible that it was written and speaks only to Israel or the Israelite people. Jesus Christ confirms this in Matthew 15:24: "But He answered and said ‘I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel." To find the answer to this question, let’s read John 10:24-27: "Then came the jews round about him, and said unto him, how long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, "I told you, and ye believed not the works that I do in my Fathers name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."One of the stumbling blocks that Christians have in understanding the Bible is using common sense in determining what Jesus Christ is trying to say, for instance, in John 8:37: Jesus tells the jews "I know that ye are Abraham’s seed. But ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you". But to read past this one verse you find that Christ tells them they are not Abraham’s seed but, tells them they are of their Father the devil. So, common sense tells me that what Jesus was trying to say was that He believed that the jews believed they were of Abraham’s seed. Lets read on through verse 38:47 "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your Father. "They answered and said: Unto him Abraham is our Father, Jesus saith unto them, if ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham." But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: This did not Abraham. "Ye do the deeds of your Father. Then said they to him, we be not born of fornication, we have one Father, even God." This really angered Christ, so He fired back with this statement. "Jesus said unto them, if God were your Father, ye would love me: For I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself, but He sent me". "Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word." Ye are of your Father the devil, and the lusts of your Father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When He speaketh a lie. He speaketh of his own: For He is a liar, and the Father of it. "and because I tell you the truth ye believe me not". "Which of you convinceth me of sin? and if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me"? "He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not because ye are not of God." Christ leaves little to be interpreted in these statements to the jews.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(11-19-2015, 01:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Westboro baptist church is 25 people. Radical Muslims are hundreds of millions.
Not sure what the KKK has to do with being a christian. I must have missed the lesson that we were supposed to hate someone that was a different color. Being a racist has nothing to do with your religion unless the religion states that you are to judge someone by the color of their skin.
Bfine posted a video somewhere that had a good response on moderates not speaking up and how irrelevant they were. You probably won't like it but there is a good point in there.
I don't have issues with moderate Muslims other than I think they should be pushing for a reformation to a more moderate Islam.
In all honesty, I thought you were full of crap.
Then I started googling.....
Man, sorry I thought you were full of it.
(11-19-2015, 07:34 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: In all honesty, I thought you were full of crap.
Then I started googling.....
Man, sorry I thought you were full of it.
(11-19-2015, 07:34 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: In all honesty, I thought you were full of crap.
Then I started googling.....
Man, sorry I thought you were full of it.
Don't worry. He's full of it.
(11-19-2015, 11:57 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Haha all ok. Glad you looked it up.
Quote:The idea behind the video is pretty straightforward. Mr Shapiro looks at various opinion polls that have been carried out in Muslim-majority countries in recent years and highlights examples of widespread beliefs that he defines as “radical”.
He then extrapolates from the survey to the whole population of the country. For example he takes a statistic that 10 per cent of 1,000 people in a survey say they want Islamic Sharia law to be the official law of their country.
Ben Shapiro argues that if there are 100 million Muslims in that country that the sample of people in the survey accurately reflects the views of the whole population, so that’s 10 million people he claims are radicalised.
Mr Shapiro repeats this process with a number of Muslim countries and claims to reach a figure of more than 600 million radicalised Muslims.
Then he adds that “it seems fair to assume” that a similar proportion of people in a long list of other largely Muslim countries hold similar views, thus bringing the estimate to more than 800 million people – or more than half the world’s Muslims.
There are a number of issues we can raise with this.
What is a radical?
The video defines people as “radicalised Muslims” if they agree with a number of different views set out in various opinion polls. These include: believing that “honour killings” of women can be justified; blaming western powers for 9/11; wanting cartoonists who depict the prophet Mohammed to be prosecuted; approving of Hamas; supporting Sharia law; having positive feelings about Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda; tolerating suicide bombings or attacks on civilians.
It’s debatable whether some of these attitudes, though unpalatable, are strictly evidence of a belief in radical Islam. We know, for example, that “honour killings” take place in other cultures, and that 9/11 conspiracism is not a purely Muslim phenomenon. The reference to the cartoonists come from this 2006 NOP poll for Channel 4, in which 78 per cent of British Muslims thought that the publishers of Danish cartoons of the Islamic Prophet should be prosecuted.
Note that the word was “prosecuted” not beheaded. This appeared to indicate a wider belief among British Muslims that free speech should be curbed if it offends religious groups. Again – controversial, but not necessarily proof of “radicalisation”. The reference to Hamas comes from the fact that the Palestinian Islamic group enjoysunusually high approval ratings in Jordan, where about half the population is of Palestinian descent. Whether everyone who approves of the group pushing for Palestinian statehood also signs up to an extreme form of Islam is a moot point. After all, some Christian Palestinians voted for Hamas in the 2006 elections, evidently for political not religious reasons.
Sharia law
It’s perfectly true that some surveys carried out in Muslim countries show widespread support for the implementation of traditional Islamic law or Sharia, although the concept evidently meant different things to people in different countries, and there are huge regional differences.
Mr Shapiro repeatedly quotes polling carried out by the Pew Research Center, a respected US-based think-tank.
Public support for making Sharia the official law of the country varied from 99 per cent of people polled in Afghanistan to 8 per cent in Azerbaijan.
Of those Muslims who backed Sharia, support for extreme punishments like executing those who leave Islam ranged from 76 per cent in South Asia to 13 per cent in southern and eastern Europe.
Of course the Shapiro video only cites Muslim countries with very high support for the introduction of Islamic law, not those where most people oppose it.
On the other hand, while the Pew surveys covered 39 Muslim countries in 38,000 face-to-face interviews, do not include some countries where variations of Sharia are already incorporated into the legal system – notably Saudi Arabia and Iran.
...
The verdict
The first thing we have to decide is whether we trust surveys of perhaps a few thousand people to represent the views of tens of millions.
Opinion polls can never be completely accurate, though of course journalists, governments and social scientists use them all the time to take the temperature of public opinion.
What Ben Shapiro appears to have done is to take a selection of opinion poll findings that when put together represent a negative view of Muslims.
This is not to gloss over the fact that some polls do show that very illiberal values and concepts can be prevalent in some Muslim countries. Pew surveys show that intolerant attitudes to homosexuality, women’s rights and other religions – among other things – are widespread in some parts of the Islamic world.
They also show that there is a huge diversity of views among different Muslim countries and that people’s beliefs can change dramatically in a few years. A fact that is not seemingly reflected in the Ben Shapiro video.
Not that I expect you to read anything that disagrees with your lies beliefs...
Quote:[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7TAAw3oQvg]In a video, Shapiro blended survey data and population statistics for 15 countries. A good example of his thesis about Islam is in the way he talked about Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim nation.
"It’s got almost 205 million Muslims," Shapiro said. "According to one 2009 poll, it showed almost 50 percent of Indonesians support strict Sharia law, not just in Indonesia but in a lot of countries. And 70 percent blame the United States, Israel or somebody else for 9/11. You make that calculation, it’s about 143 million people who are radicalized. You scared yet? We’re just getting started."
To get to 143 million "radicalized" Muslims, Shapiro took the 70 percent of Indonesia’s Muslims who blamed someone other than al-Qaida for the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
Shapiro then made similar extrapolations using polling data for a number of other countries, often measuring support for Sharia law -- codes of behavior in Islam. Then Shapiro summed up and applied the percentage of "radicalized Muslims" from the 15 nations to a number of other Muslim-majority countries and, with 1.6 billion Muslims worldwide, reached a shocking conclusion.
"We’re above 800 million Muslims radicalized, more than half the Muslims on Earth," Shapiro said. "That’s not a minority. That’s now a majority."
...
Shapiro consistently used the highest percentages available in the surveys to maximize the number of Muslims he could tag with the "radical" label. Secondly, he used a broad definition of radical. To choose one main example, there are many varieties of how people interpret Sharia law and support for it says little about a person’s specific beliefs.
...
For Shapiro, support for any form of Sharia law means one thing -- the believer is a radical. Accordingly, Shapiro looks at a place like Pakistan and says that 76 percent of Muslims want Sharia law in all Muslim countries. Pakistan has 179 million Muslims, therefore, "that is another 135.4 million radicals."
But looking at a 2013 Pew report on Muslims, we found that the picture is more complicated. Pew reported that 84 percent of Pakistani Muslims wanted Sharia law, but of those, nearly two-thirds said it should only apply to Muslims. Run those numbers through and you get about 54 million Muslims who think all Pakistanis should be subject to Sharia law. That’s about 60 percent fewer than Shapiro said.
We are not saying that Pakistan has 54 million radical Muslims. Our point is that more detailed polling data changes the results a great deal.
Shapiro chose one yardstick. Other analysts could with at least as much justification choose another. The impact of which question is used becomes even clearer if we look at support for suicide bombings against civilian targets.
Shapiro said actual terrorists draw "moral, financial and religious support from those who are not terrorists themselves." Even if you believe Shapiro, it doesn’t mean that attitudes towards terrorism are irrelevant. Pew asked Muslims if they supported suicide bombings against civilians. In Pakistan, 13 percent of Muslims said such attacks in defense of Islam could often or sometimes be justified.
If that’s your definition of radicals, then Pakistan has about 23 million of them. Hardly a small number, but it’s a far cry from the 135 million Shapiro counted
...
Our ruling
Shapiro said that a majority of Muslims are radicals. To make his numbers work, he had to cherry-pick certain results from public opinion surveys. Given the choice between two possible percentages, he chose the higher one. Shapiro also relied heavily on the idea that anyone who supported sharia law is a radical.
Some of the best polling work shows that Muslim beliefs are much more nuanced. Some countries where high percentages of Muslims support Sharia law show low support for suicide attacks on civilians. Large fractions of Muslims that endorse sharia law do not want it imposed on others. The meaning of Sharia law varies from sect to sect and nation to nation.
Shapiro’s definition of radical is so thin as to be practically meaningless and so too are the numbers he brings to bear.
We rate the claim False.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(11-20-2015, 12:27 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: No. I just don't see the relevance of comparing the two. I know that the liberals go to when Muslims behave like Muslims ....
The problem of these groups is that they are so small and irrelevant that they do not matter. Woodrow Wilson's KKK is about as relevant as a Betamax .
When we bring up a small group of Muslims acting a fool then you can KKK or westboro us to death.
Find me an extreme christian group who murders people for not being christian . That numbers in the hundreds of millions.
Yeah...you didn't read the post above yours.
Color me surprised....
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
And we are supposed to believe politifact why? Oh yeah because they are 3x more likely to say republicans are not truthful .
The channel 4 blogger didn't refute what Shapiro said .... He just added to it to make it sound less harsh.
(11-20-2015, 12:46 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: That wasn't even what I was referencing when I got my numbers. That's just what Roto found.
But good job using a biased service to rate whether it's true or not.
If you want to debunk Shapiro then post the polls and go through them. Show us he is a liar.
I provided TWO sources...with links (and images) from the same polls that Shapiro used.
You were quite willing to accept Shaprio's word for everything because you already agreed with him. Open you eyes and look at the other side (the one that doesn't make wild assumptions) and see how that goes.
Sorry...I almost got through that with a straight face! We all know you'll just ignore them and then just make up something.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
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