What Americans thought of Jewish refugees on the eve of World War II

[BmorePat87]

(11-19-2015, 01:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Westboro baptist church is 25 people.   Radical Muslims are hundreds of millions.  

Not sure what the KKK has to do with being a christian.   I must have missed the lesson that we were supposed to hate someone that was a different color.    Being a racist has nothing to do with your religion unless the religion states that you are to judge someone by the color of their skin.  

Bfine posted a video somewhere that had a good response on moderates not speaking up and how irrelevant they were.  You probably won't like it but there is a good point in there.  

I don't have issues with moderate Muslims other than I think they should be pushing for a reformation to a more moderate Islam.

We're talking about ISIL, though, and they're only between 52k and 258k strong. So, at most, 0.016% of the global Muslim population is representative of what it means to be a Muslim?

I also reject Ben Shapiro's hilarious attempts at twisting polls to make global claims. The numerous sources showing how his suggesting is just wrong is adequate evidence.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 08:21 AM)GMDino Wrote: I provided TWO sources...with links (and images) from the same polls that Shapiro used.  

You were quite willing to accept Shaprio's word for everything because you already agreed with him.  Open you eyes and look at the other side (the one that doesn't make wild assumptions) and see how that goes.



Sorry...I almost got through that with a straight face!  We all know you'll just ignore them and then just make up something. 

All he is doing is trying to redefine what a radical means . Radical as defined by Shapiro is doing anything that a western civilization would seem inappropriate. Channel 4 guy is trying to say that because of 9-11 truthers are also non Muslim that you can not Count that.... Which is irrelevant to the fact that people in these countries believe it.

Quote:The reference to the cartoonists come from this 2006 NOP poll for Channel 4, in which 78 per cent of British Muslims thought that the publishers of Danish cartoons of the Islamic Prophet should be prosecuted.

Note that the word was “prosecuted” not beheaded. This appeared to indicate a wider belief among British Muslims that free speech should be curbed if it offends religious groups. Again – controversial, but not necessarily proof of “radicalisation”.

^^* prosecuted for this would be an example of supporting sharia law. Which makes them radical.

Quote:In any event, the way people say they feel about bin Laden and terrorism in these polls is often contradicted by their responses to other questions.

^^^^ irrelevant since Shapiro is only using the pew info as provided. He isn't making it up or using other polls to muddy the data.

Later channel 4 guy shows his stripes and starts bringing in other polls to refute. Which is fine but that doesn't make shapiro's use of only pew polls wrong either. No problem trying to refute with other polls. But Shapiro stuck to his data and stayed consistent .

If he had manipulate the pew data I am sure they would have spoken out about it by now. He is easily one of more outspoken conservatives out there... Which is why he is one of the few willing to do something like this video.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 11:52 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: We're talking about ISIL, though, and they're only between 52k and 258k strong. So, at most, 0.016% of the global Muslim population is representative of what it means to be a Muslim?

I also reject Ben Shapiro's hilarious attempts at twisting polls to make global claims. The numerous sources showing how his suggesting is just wrong is adequate evidence.

Fair enough. But really these numbers just come down to what you consider makes you radical or moderate.

Wiling to bet my list of what makes you radical is different than yours. So really if we are ever going to forward this discussion there needs to be some sort of unified board definition of what makes you radical or why its radical.

I would think any belief that oppresses women in western civilization's eyes would be radical. You may only think killing makes you radical. I'm not sure where you stand on that since we have never attempted to create a unified definition of radical behavior.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2015, 03:41 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: All he is doing is trying to redefine what a radical means .   

Drivel

The rest is drivel to justify his use of poll results that he "redefined" and then extrapolated and you take as God's own truth.

[BmorePat87]

(11-20-2015, 03:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Fair enough.   But really these numbers just come down to what you consider makes you radical or moderate.  

Wiling to bet my list of what makes you radical is different than yours.   So really if we are ever going to forward this discussion there needs to be some sort of unified board definition of what makes you radical or why its radical.  

I would think any belief that oppresses women in western civilization's eyes would be radical.    You may only think killing makes you radical.   I'm not sure where you stand on that since we have never attempted to create a unified definition of radical behavior.

So are Christians who use their religion to justify discrimination against gay and trans people "radical"?

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 03:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So are Christians who use their religion to justify discrimination against gay and trans people "radical"?

Do they want to enslave, kill or mutilate them? Because that is what would happen in a Muslim country. If they wanted to do that then yes that's radical. But not baking a cake = not radical.

How do you define that? As radical?

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 03:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: The rest is drivel to justify his use of poll results that he "redefined" and then extrapolated and you take as God's own truth.

Then let's start a thread to come up with a consensus as to what constitutes as radical behavior. Until then this is a pointless discussion. If you are interested in ever drilling down on that then I would be happy to participate in such a thread.

[BmorePat87]

(11-20-2015, 04:03 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do they want to enslave, kill or mutilate them?  Because that is what would happen in a Muslim country.   If they wanted to do that then yes that's radical.   But not baking a cake = not radical.  

How do you define  that?  As radical?

Enslave, kill, and mutilate? Out of curiosity, how do you gauge the number of people who want to kill, enslave, and mutilate? 

And we know we're discussing legal discrimination that is being advocated by many Christians that extends far beyond not baking cakes. 

As far as your request for a definition, it's relative. Anyone who is on the extreme end of their group. 

[GMDino]

(11-20-2015, 04:03 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Do they want to enslave, kill or mutilate them?  Because that is what would happen in a Muslim country.   If they wanted to do that then yes that's radical.   But not baking a cake = not radical.  

How do you define  that?  As radical?

So simply denying someone rights isn't "radical".  Only if they want them dead or enslaved?

Well...at least we know where you stand.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 04:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: So simply denying someone rights isn't "radical".  Only if they want them dead or enslaved?

Well...at least we know where you stand.

Then let's define it.

Is it radical to tell/force women what clothes they can wear?

Is it radical to not let a woman's voice count equal to men in court?

Is it radical to not allow women to drive by law?

Is it radical to tax someone more for having a different religious view or no religious view? What about hurt them? Or even kill?

Is it radical to enslave people who are not of the same faith or are of no faith? Then sell them?

Are honor killings ok? Radical or no?

I would consider all of this radical behavior.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2015, 05:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Then let's define it.

Is it radical to tell/force women what clothes they can wear?  

Is it radical to not let a woman's voice count equal to men in court?  

Is it radical to not allow women to drive by law?

Is it radical to tax someone more for having a different religious view or no religious view?   What about hurt them?  Or even kill?  

Is it radical to enslave people who are not of the same faith or are of no faith?  Then sell them?  

Are honor killings ok?  Radical or no?

I would consider all of this radical behavior.

Is it radical to demand to have your religious prayers said in public buildings?

Is it radical to demand that homosexuals not be allowed to be married because your holy book calls it a sin?

Is it radical to say you can defy the laws of the state because of your religion?

Is it radical to say women cannot determine what they do to their own bodies?

Is it radical to deny women birth control via their insurance because of YOUR religion?

Is it radical to say people of the same faith should not be eligible for public office?

Is it radical to say we should have all people of a faith carry a special ID?

Is it radical to claim that vast swaths of other countries are savages based on violence from a few?

Is it radical to demean those of different genders or gender identification because you don't believe they are really what they say they are?

Is it radical to claim that to raise a proper son one should take them to a brothel to establish their sexuality?

Is it radical to claim women who get raped should have dressed differently?

Is it radical to use your religion to say hateful things about other groups?

[*bfine32*]

(11-20-2015, 03:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So are Christians who use their religion to justify discrimination against gay and trans people "radical"?

No they just aren't Liberal Christians:
https://youtu.be/2w0dLJ-o-bU




I sure there are millions of Muslims that take a more hardline approach to this "discrimination" you speak of. They are not considered to be radical either.
Those that call for and participate in Jihad are radical.
When is the last time Christians called for Jihad?

[*bfine32*]

(11-20-2015, 06:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is it radical to demand to have your religious prayers said in public buildings?

Is it radical to demand that homosexuals not be allowed to be married because your holy book calls it a sin?

Is it radical to say you can defy the laws of the state because of your religion?

Is it radical to say women cannot determine what they do to their own bodies?

Is it radical to deny women birth control via their insurance because of YOUR religion?

Is it radical to say people of the same faith should not be eligible for public office?

Is it radical to say we should have all people of a faith carry a special ID?

Is it radical to claim that vast swaths of other countries are savages based on violence from a few?

Is it radical to demean those of different genders or gender identification because you don't believe they are really what they say they are?

Is it radical to claim that to raise a proper son one should take them to a brothel to establish their sexuality?

Is it radical to claim women who get raped should have dressed differently?

Is it radical to use your religion to say hateful things about other groups?

Nothing you list here is radical; there are a couple that are just dumb. The radical part would be the actions to support these beliefs.

For instance #1. It is not radical to demand prayer in school; however, if it is denied and you blew up the school because of it, that would be radical.

It is entertaining to see folks try to compare radical Islam to Christianity.  Look how radical all the Christians got when SSM was deemed to be legal Federally. We had one National story of a clerk in rural Kentucky refuse to issue the license and it was the biggest story in the Nation for quite some time.  

[GMDino]

(11-20-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing you list here is radical; there are a couple that are just dumb. The radical part would be the actions to support these beliefs.

For instance #1. It is not radical to demand prayer in school; however, if it is denied and you blew up the school because of it, that would be radical.

It is entertaining to see folks try to compare radical Islam to Christianity.  Look how radical all the Christians got when SSM was deemed to be legal Federally. We had one National story of a clerk in rural Kentucky refuse to issue the license and it was the biggest story in the Nation for quite some time.  

I'm not "comparing" anything.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of saying one religion is better than another due to the acts of a few.

Like, say, blowing up an abortion clinic or killing an abortion doctor, or dragging a homosexual behind your truck, or...or...or...

Lucy is big on just making things up out of thin air, being proven demonstrably wrong, and then changing the point to pretend that's not what he means.

Thanks!

[BmorePat87]

(11-20-2015, 06:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No they just aren't Liberal Christians:
https://youtu.be/2w0dLJ-o-bU




I sure there are millions of Muslims that take a more hardline approach to this "discrimination" you speak of. They are not considered to be radical either.
Those that call for and participate in Jihad are radical.
When is the last time Christians called for Jihad?

I didn't call those people radical Christians, I merely asked Lucie if his definition applied to Christians too. You seem to be having some trouble again with reading posts. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-20-2015, 09:02 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't call those people radical Christians, I merely asked Lucie if his definition applied to Christians too. You seem to be having some trouble again with reading posts. 

Where did I suggest you considered them radical; I merely answered the question you posed. I'll work on that reading thing. 

[Millhouse]

(11-20-2015, 06:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nothing you list here is radical; there are a couple that are just dumb. The radical part would be the actions to support these beliefs.

For instance #1. It is not radical to demand prayer in school; however, if it is denied and you blew up the school because of it, that would be radical.

It is entertaining to see folks try to compare radical Islam to Christianity.  Look how radical all the Christians got when SSM was deemed to be legal Federally. We had one National story of a clerk in rural Kentucky refuse to issue the license and it was the biggest story in the Nation for quite some time.  

I find it amusing that people like to compare Islam to Christianity even without radicalism involved. And what I find even more amusing is how many liberal democrats over here are trying to defend Islam when how many countries out there institute Sharia Law into the legislation? And worse how many Muslims would want to see it in place if it isnt already? Everything about Sharia Law is abhorrent to our modern civil liberties and our Bill of Rights which is the foundation of our Western societies.

The most obvious thing that a blind person can see is how the "Christian West" has evolved over the last 300+ years compared to the Islamic middle east. Christians read the same Bible as Muslims have likewise read their book over the centuries. Yet, for whatever reason, the west went from farmers and merchants 300 years ago to landing on the freaking moon, and providing the world with things like electricity, radio, cars, healthcare advancements, democracy, etc. The Middle East has done what? What have they offered the world outside of ancient fossil fuels that they just happened to luck into? 

And how is it in the year 2015 that thousands and thousands Muslims that have read the Quran are flocking to IS and other groups in the name of Islam and "He who shall not be named", yet radical Christians  are breaking the law by trying to have 3 wives or denying a gay marriage license as you said or things like that. KKK isnt riding around anymore with the law on their side, and other historical groups liek them (besides the KKK are teddy bears compared to ISIS). Radical Christians arent slamming 747s into buildings. Radical Christians in groups arent massacring people like in Paris, Mali, Syria, and other places in quite some time now. Both sides have read their same respective books over the centuries, yet look at the world from a looking glass where the Christian roots are verses where Islam roots are. 

[*bfine32*]

(11-20-2015, 11:33 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I find it amusing that people like to compare Islam to Christianity even without radicalism involved. And what I find even more amusing is how many liberal democrats over here are trying to defend Islam when how many countries out there institute Sharia Law into the legislation? And worse how many Muslims would want to see it in place if it isnt already? Everything about Sharia Law is abhorrent to our modern civil liberties and our Bill of Rights which is the foundation of our Western societies.

The most obvious thing that a blind person can see is how the "Christian West" has evolved over the last 300+ years compared to the Islamic middle east. Christians read the same Bible as Muslims have likewise read their book over the centuries. Yet, for whatever reason, the west went from farmers and merchants 300 years ago to landing on the freaking moon, and providing the world with things like electricity, radio, cars, healthcare advancements, democracy, etc. The Middle East has done what? What have they offered the world outside of ancient fossil fuels that they just happened to luck into? 

And how is it in the year 2015 that thousands and thousands Muslims that have read the Quran are flocking to IS and other groups in the name of Islam and "He who shall not be named", yet radical Christians  are breaking the law by trying to have 3 wives or denying a gay marriage license as you said or things like that. KKK isnt riding around anymore with the law on their side, and other historical groups liek them (besides the KKK are teddy bears compared to ISIS). Radical Christians arent slamming 747s into buildings. Radical Christians in groups arent massacring people like in Paris, Mali, Syria, and other places in quite some time now. Both sides have read their same respective books over the centuries, yet look at the world from a looking glass where the Christian roots are verses where Islam roots are. 

Yes, we can see how silly it is, but you must understand, it is all they have. 

[StLucieBengal]

(11-20-2015, 09:02 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I didn't call those people radical Christians, I merely asked Lucie if his definition applied to Christians too. You seem to be having some trouble again with reading posts. 

Radical is radical . It's not a singular Islamic thing.

In this case we were attempting to define what radical meant when we are measuring just which Muslims are radical and which are not. There should be a consensus or at least enough common ground to which we agree what is radical and what is not. Since there is a question of how many radical Muslims there are worldwide.

[Bengalzona]

(11-20-2015, 11:33 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I find it amusing that people like to compare Islam to Christianity even without radicalism involved. And what I find even more amusing is how many liberal democrats over here are trying to defend Islam when how many countries out there institute Sharia Law into the legislation? And worse how many Muslims would want to see it in place if it isnt already? Everything about Sharia Law is abhorrent to our modern civil liberties and our Bill of Rights which is the foundation of our Western societies.

The most obvious thing that a blind person can see is how the "Christian West" has evolved over the last 300+ years compared to the Islamic middle east. Christians read the same Bible as Muslims have likewise read their book over the centuries. Yet, for whatever reason, the west went from farmers and merchants 300 years ago to landing on the freaking moon, and providing the world with things like electricity, radio, cars, healthcare advancements, democracy, etc. The Middle East has done what? What have they offered the world outside of ancient fossil fuels that they just happened to luck into? 

And how is it in the year 2015 that thousands and thousands Muslims that have read the Quran are flocking to IS and other groups in the name of Islam and "He who shall not be named", yet radical Christians  are breaking the law by trying to have 3 wives or denying a gay marriage license as you said or things like that. KKK isnt riding around anymore with the law on their side, and other historical groups liek them (besides the KKK are teddy bears compared to ISIS). Radical Christians arent slamming 747s into buildings. Radical Christians in groups arent massacring people like in Paris, Mali, Syria, and other places in quite some time now. Both sides have read their same respective books over the centuries, yet look at the world from a looking glass where the Christian roots are verses where Islam roots are. 

How have they evolved differently?

It is because around the time of the Renaissance, Western society became more secularized and Christianity (as it has sometimes been wont to do in the past) reconciled itself to accept many or most of the changes in the society rather than oppose them. Christianity started out opposing the secularism. But it had what it considered a greater concern develop: its own internal conflicts which would eventually turn into their own great sectarian conflict, the Thirty Years War.

Things did not develop the same way in the Middle East. There are several reasons you could attribute this to: wide open geographic spaces between populations which enabled Islam to keep tighter control, incursions from external powers (namely, the Mongols), the rural backwater nature of the areas which Islam controlled, etc. The Middle East never went through a renaissance of their own. Their apex ended with the Ottoman defeat at the gates of Vienna in 1683. And, like the Byzantines the Ottomans had defeated previously, the last great empire went into 235 years of decline. The only time when the Islamic world opened itself up to secular ideas was after the fall of the Ottoman Empire after World War I and into the 1970's/80's. Unfortunately, many of the Islamic areas became proxies for the great political powers of the world (namely, the U.S. and U.S.S.R during the Cold War). This, combined with economic stagnation and poverty among the masses and the inability of Islamic leaders to share the oil wealth, led to resentment among people living in Islamic areas. That resentment was easily redirected against secularism and the West by Islam (with the blessing of Islamic leaders, of course).