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I am going to throw out "Joe Burrow, QB" as too obvious an answer, so I will pose the question: What is the greatest single change that has happened to the Bengals week 1 lineup vs. last year?
I went with Jonah Williams. Sure, we have only camp fodder to hint at how he will play, but I see him a lot like I do Burrow: All about ball...studies his ass off, is a technician, and has a pedigree.
What is yours?
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Has to be Jonah. The revolving door that was the LT position really sunk or season last year. I like Trey Hopkins, but if he’s your best player on the OL you’re not going to be very good. Jonah should make a huge difference.
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Tough.call. Im gonna go LB. Vigil.and Brown were the worst in the NFL last year. They couldnt tackle or cover to save their lives
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I said Reader. We have a big run stuffer in the middle of that DL. LBs should be feasting pretty regularly!
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I’d say starting future HoFer AJ Green at WR in week 1 is a pretty big change from starting former UDFA rookie Damion Willis at WR in week 1 2019.
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I went with Jonah Williams.
Keep in mind that the Bengals didn't even have Cordy Glenn for the first 10 games last year, so they had Andre Smith starting at LT for Week 1 at that point.
While I like the addition of Reader, Billings was a solid DT.
And while the LBs were horrible last year, it's hard for me to think that a 3rd and 4th rounder are gonna upgrade that unit more than Jonah Williams will upgrade the LT position compared to last September.
While I love AJ Green, Boyd and Ross were very good last September.
Zac Taylor 2019-2020: 6 total wins
Zac Taylor 2021-2022: Double-digit wins each season, plus 5 postseason wins
Patience has paid off!
Sorry for Party Rocking!
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Tough call between Williams, Green & Reader. Which one is it that we can least afford to lose ? In my mind it would be Jonah. And that's not diminishing the importance & talent that the other two are going to bring. We need him to produce.
But it's gonna be fun watching Burrow to Green & Readers skill set lining up next to Geno, Carlos & Hubbard. 
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(08-31-2020, 04:24 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I’d say starting future HoFer AJ Green at WR in week 1 is a pretty big change from starting former UDFA rookie Damion Willis at WR in week 1 2019.
Sorry man, but it's not happening. Might as well accept it now. It was possible before, but the injuries the last couple years sealed it.
He'll simply never be able to statistically rise to/above the level of his peers of the era...
16 Years
L Fitzgerald: 1,378 catches/17,083 yards (12.4 AVG)/120 TDs ... Pro Bowl x11, All-Pro x1
14 Years
A Johnson: 1,062 catches/14,185 yards (13.4 AVG)/70 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
R Wayne: 1,070 catches/14,343 yards (13.4 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
A Boldin: 1,076 catches/13,779 yards (12.8 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
13 Years
B Marshall: 970 catches/12,351 yards (12.7 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
12 Years
D Jackson: 598 catches/10,420 yards (17.4 AVG)/55 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
11 Years
R White: 808 catches/10,863 yards (13.4 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x1
10 Years
A Brown: 841 catches/11,263 yards (13.4 AVG)/75 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x4
9 Years
AJ Green: 602 catches/8,907 yards (14.8 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x0
J Jones: 797 catches/12,125 yards (15.2 AVG)/57 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
C Johnson: 731 catches/11,619 yards (15.9 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x3
8 Years
TY Hilton: 552 catches/8,589 yards (15.6 AVG)/45 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x0
7 Years
D Hopkins: 632 catches/8,602 yards (13.6 AVG)/54 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x3
6 Years
O Beckham: 464 catches/6,511 yards (14.0 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
M Evans: 462 catches/7,260 yards (15.7 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
4 Yards
M Thomas: 470 catches/5,512 yards (11.7 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x2
T Hill: 281 catches/4,115 yards (14.6 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x2
...this post turned out to be way more research/work than I originally anticipated. The point being that when it comes time to compare him to the other great WRs of his time, AJ Green will statistically come up lacking. It was already a slight issue before the injuries, but losing 29 games over the last 4 years pretty much put a nail in that coffin. Age 32-36 he would have to put up at least 1k yards each year (which is more than he's averaged so far in his first 9 years) to even keep himself in the conversation and I don't even know if that'll be enough the way that Hopkins/Evans/Thomas are racking up stats behind him and the fact that he'll always be compared to Julio Jones since they were two picks apart yet Julio has over 3k yards more in the same time already.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ALL THAT SAID... I still full agree with your response. AJ Green starting rather than Damien Willis is about as huge of an upgrade as you possibly can get. That's like Whit instead of Ogbuehi.
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This is pretty cool so far: There are votes for Jonah, AJ, Reader, and the LBs. That is four changes from the starting lineup that you could make a case for being most significant, meaning ALL are very significant. And all four happened on the same team. The Bengals.
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Hopefully it's the coaching.
This staff has now had well over a year to impliment their respective systems, and to build their culture. They've also had ample time to evaluate the roster, and to tailor their approach accordingly. Then add in the best draft postion in each round and the 4th most money spent in free agency.
This staff, above all else, should show the most change. There is no excuse why we shouldn't expect a drastic difference in the quality of play, which ultimately falls on their shoulders. It's their job to get the most of this roster and to produce results.
I'm not saying I expect to see the amount of change that takes a 2 win team to 10+ win team. I'm talking about better play calling, more creativity, more discipline, and an approach that is more tailored to this roster.
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(08-31-2020, 05:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sorry man, but it's not happening. Might as well accept it now. It was possible before, but the injuries the last couple years sealed it.
He'll simply never be able to statistically rise to/above the level of his peers of the era...
16 Years
L Fitzgerald: 1,378 catches/17,083 yards (12.4 AVG)/120 TDs ... Pro Bowl x11, All-Pro x1
14 Years
A Johnson: 1,062 catches/14,185 yards (13.4 AVG)/70 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
R Wayne: 1,070 catches/14,343 yards (13.4 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
A Boldin: 1,076 catches/13,779 yards (12.8 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
13 Years
B Marshall: 970 catches/12,351 yards (12.7 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
12 Years
D Jackson: 598 catches/10,420 yards (17.4 AVG)/55 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
11 Years
R White: 808 catches/10,863 yards (13.4 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x1
10 Years
A Brown: 841 catches/11,263 yards (13.4 AVG)/75 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x4
9 Years
AJ Green: 602 catches/8,907 yards (14.8 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x0
J Jones: 797 catches/12,125 yards (15.2 AVG)/57 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
C Johnson: 731 catches/11,619 yards (15.9 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x3
8 Years
TY Hilton: 552 catches/8,589 yards (15.6 AVG)/45 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x0
7 Years
D Hopkins: 632 catches/8,602 yards (13.6 AVG)/54 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x3
6 Years
O Beckham: 464 catches/6,511 yards (14.0 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
M Evans: 462 catches/7,260 yards (15.7 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
4 Yards
M Thomas: 470 catches/5,512 yards (11.7 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x2
T Hill: 281 catches/4,115 yards (14.6 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x2
...this post turned out to be way more research/work than I originally anticipated. The point being that when it comes time to compare him to the other great WRs of his time, AJ Green will statistically come up lacking. It was already a slight issue before the injuries, but losing 29 games over the last 4 years pretty much put a nail in that coffin. Age 32-36 he would have to put up at least 1k yards each year (which is more than he's averaged so far in his first 9 years) to even keep himself in the conversation and I don't even know if that'll be enough the way that Hopkins/Evans/Thomas are racking up stats behind him and the fact that he'll always be compared to Julio Jones since they were two picks apart yet Julio has over 3k yards more in the same time already.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ALL THAT SAID... I still full agree with your response. AJ Green starting rather than Damien Willis is about as huge of an upgrade as you possibly can get. That's like Whit instead of Ogbuehi.
GREAT work. Always appreciate a well researched post.
I'm with you. I think he needs an absolute minimum of 13,000 yards to be in the discussion.
Considering Chad Johnson has over 11,000, and he came up a full 10 years behind AJ (before passing and receivers totals skyrocketed), then I think AJ will need to move well past that benchmark.
I think the chances of AJ tagging on another 4,100 yards is pretty slim. And without a ring, a Superbowl MVP, or any of that, he's really going to have a tough time seperating himself from the pack.
PS I'll get flamed for this, but whatever. If AJ ends up where I think he will (10,000-13,000 yards) then I think you can easily argue that Chad had a better career, given their respective eras.
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(08-31-2020, 06:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Hopefully it's the coaching.
This staff has now had well over a year to impliment their respective systems, and to build their culture. They've also had ample time to evaluate the roster, and to tailor their approach accordingly. Then add in the best draft postion in each round and the 4th most money spent in free agency.
This staff, above all else, should show the most change. There is no excuse why we shouldn't expect a drastic difference in the quality of play, which ultimately falls on their shoulders. It's their job to get the most of this roster and to produce results.
I'm not saying I expect to see the amount of change that takes a 2 win team to 10+ win team. I'm talking about better play calling, more creativity, more discipline, and an approach that is more tailored to this roster.
You beat me to it Wes
Hopefully the coaching staff has learned from their mistakes.
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(08-31-2020, 03:19 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am going to throw out "Joe Burrow, QB" as too obvious an answer, so I will pose the question: What is the greatest single change that has happened to the Bengals week 1 lineup vs. last year?
I went with Jonah Williams. Sure, we have only camp fodder to hint at how he will play, but I see him a lot like I do Burrow: All about ball...studies his ass off, is a technician, and has a pedigree.
What is yours?
Well I could vote for Reader, Jonah and the Linebacker roster turnover. Hard to say after Burrow. Guess I will vote for Reader
cause we really need to stop the run badly. Think he will free up a lot of players on Defense and make it easier to do their job.
Plus Reader is a proven vet unlike Jonah or even Burrow at this moment.
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(08-31-2020, 06:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: GREAT work. Always appreciate a well researched post.
I'm with you. I think he needs an absolute minimum of 13,000 yards to be in the discussion.
Considering Chad Johnson has over 11,000, and he came up a full 10 years behind AJ (before passing and receivers totals skyrocketed), then I think AJ will need to move well past that benchmark.
I think the chances of AJ tagging on another 4,100 yards is pretty slim. And without a ring, a Superbowl MVP, or any of that, he's really going to have a tough time seperating himself from the pack.
PS I'll get flamed for this, but whatever. If AJ ends up where I think he will (10,000-13,000 yards) then I think you can easily argue that Chad had a better career, given their respective eras.
Thanks.
Won't get any flame from me. I've always stated that AJ has had a great career so far, but Chad still remains the best Bengals WR of all time. Dude deserves to be in the HoF.
AJ has always seemed to be a Top 5-10 WR in the league, but never had a time where he was THE best in the NFL. It's why he's got plenty of Pro Bowls, but no All-Pros to his name. Chad meanwhile had a three year stretch there where he was legitimately the best WR in football (which is why '04-'06 Chad was All-Pro including leading the NFL in yards in '06).
The most impressive part of Chad during that stretch was the defenses he was playing against when he did it...
2004:
Steelers 1st Overall Defense
Ravens 6th Overall Defense
2005:
Steelers 4th Overall Defense
Ravens 5th Overall Defense
2006:
Ravens 1st Overall Defense
Steelers 9th Overall Defense
That's a full 25% of his games each year right there. Defenses with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, (old) Deion Sanders in an era where WRs weren't really protected.
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(08-31-2020, 05:47 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sorry man, but it's not happening. Might as well accept it now. It was possible before, but the injuries the last couple years sealed it.
He'll simply never be able to statistically rise to/above the level of his peers of the era...
16 Years
L Fitzgerald: 1,378 catches/17,083 yards (12.4 AVG)/120 TDs ... Pro Bowl x11, All-Pro x1
14 Years
A Johnson: 1,062 catches/14,185 yards (13.4 AVG)/70 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
R Wayne: 1,070 catches/14,343 yards (13.4 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
A Boldin: 1,076 catches/13,779 yards (12.8 AVG)/82 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
13 Years
B Marshall: 970 catches/12,351 yards (12.7 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x1
12 Years
D Jackson: 598 catches/10,420 yards (17.4 AVG)/55 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
11 Years
R White: 808 catches/10,863 yards (13.4 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x1
10 Years
A Brown: 841 catches/11,263 yards (13.4 AVG)/75 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x4
9 Years
AJ Green: 602 catches/8,907 yards (14.8 AVG)/63 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x0
J Jones: 797 catches/12,125 yards (15.2 AVG)/57 TDs ... Pro Bowl x7, All-Pro x2
C Johnson: 731 catches/11,619 yards (15.9 AVG)/83 TDs ... Pro Bowl x6, All-Pro x3
8 Years
TY Hilton: 552 catches/8,589 yards (15.6 AVG)/45 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x0
7 Years
D Hopkins: 632 catches/8,602 yards (13.6 AVG)/54 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x3
6 Years
O Beckham: 464 catches/6,511 yards (14.0 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
M Evans: 462 catches/7,260 yards (15.7 AVG)/48 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x0
4 Yards
M Thomas: 470 catches/5,512 yards (11.7 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x2
T Hill: 281 catches/4,115 yards (14.6 AVG)/32 TDs ... Pro Bowl x4, All-Pro x2
...this post turned out to be way more research/work than I originally anticipated. The point being that when it comes time to compare him to the other great WRs of his time, AJ Green will statistically come up lacking. It was already a slight issue before the injuries, but losing 29 games over the last 4 years pretty much put a nail in that coffin. Age 32-36 he would have to put up at least 1k yards each year (which is more than he's averaged so far in his first 9 years) to even keep himself in the conversation and I don't even know if that'll be enough the way that Hopkins/Evans/Thomas are racking up stats behind him and the fact that he'll always be compared to Julio Jones since they were two picks apart yet Julio has over 3k yards more in the same time already.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ALL THAT SAID... I still full agree with your response. AJ Green starting rather than Damien Willis is about as huge of an upgrade as you possibly can get. That's like Whit instead of Ogbuehi.
As Wes said, nice work TLL. Agree the injuries over the last few years sealed AJ out of the HOF.
He still cannot stay healthy either so there was no way I could vote for him.
(08-31-2020, 06:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Thanks.
Won't get any flame from me. I've always stated that AJ has had a great career so far, but Chad still remains the best Bengals WR of all time. Dude deserves to be in the HoF.
AJ has always seemed to be a Top 5-10 WR in the league, but never had a time where he was THE best in the NFL. It's why he's got plenty of Pro Bowls, but no All-Pros to his name. Chad meanwhile had a three year stretch there where he was legitimately the best WR in football (which is why '04-'06 Chad was All-Pro including leading the NFL in yards in '06).
The most impressive part of Chad during that stretch was the defenses he was playing against when he did it...
2004:
Steelers 1st Overall Defense
Ravens 6th Overall Defense
2005:
Steelers 4th Overall Defense
Ravens 5th Overall Defense
2006:
Ravens 1st Overall Defense
Steelers 9th Overall Defense
That's a full 25% of his games each year right there. Defenses with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, (old) Deion Sanders in an era where WRs weren't really protected.
I like AJ better but you are correct, what Chad did in that time was more impressive. Just wish he was more clutch in the big
situations, my one ***** about Chad besides him being a bit of a diva. Still, best toe tap and route runner we ever had.
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(08-31-2020, 06:16 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: GREAT work. Always appreciate a well researched post.
I'm with you. I think he needs an absolute minimum of 13,000 yards to be in the discussion.
Considering Chad Johnson has over 11,000, and he came up a full 10 years behind AJ (before passing and receivers totals skyrocketed), then I think AJ will need to move well past that benchmark.
I think the chances of AJ tagging on another 4,100 yards is pretty slim. And without a ring, a Superbowl MVP, or any of that, he's really going to have a tough time seperating himself from the pack.
PS I'll get flamed for this, but whatever. If AJ ends up where I think he will (10,000-13,000 yards) then I think you can easily argue that Chad had a better career, given their respective eras.
I don’t think anyone that ranks Chad ahead of AJ should get flamed. Chad was just flat out dominant for a few years there, and was incredibly durable to boot. When you’re talking about best footwork of a WR ever Chad has to be in conversation. I’d probably give AJ the edge on route running, but there’s not much he does better than Chad did.
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(08-31-2020, 06:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Thanks.
Won't get any flame from me. I've always stated that AJ has had a great career so far, but Chad still remains the best Bengals WR of all time. Dude deserves to be in the HoF.
AJ has always seemed to be a Top 5-10 WR in the league, but never had a time where he was THE best in the NFL. It's why he's got plenty of Pro Bowls, but no All-Pros to his name. Chad meanwhile had a three year stretch there where he was legitimately the best WR in football (which is why '04-'06 Chad was All-Pro including leading the NFL in yards in '06).
The most impressive part of Chad during that stretch was the defenses he was playing against when he did it...
2004:
Steelers 1st Overall Defense
Ravens 6th Overall Defense
2005:
Steelers 4th Overall Defense
Ravens 5th Overall Defense
2006:
Ravens 1st Overall Defense
Steelers 9th Overall Defense
That's a full 25% of his games each year right there. Defenses with Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, (old) Deion Sanders in an era where WRs weren't really protected.
You’re the stats guy, so I’ll take your word, but what about TO and Moss during that time?
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(08-31-2020, 08:03 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t think anyone that ranks Chad ahead of AJ should get flamed. Chad was just flat out dominant for a few years there, and was incredibly durable to boot. When you’re talking about best footwork of a WR ever Chad has to be in conversation. I’d probably give AJ the edge on route running, but there’s not much he does better than Chad did.
AJ in his prime was bigger and faster than Chad and was faster on the field than his forty time would indicate, long strider like
Henry and a different gear.
But the injuries have definitely put a damper on AJ being better than Chad, that is for sure.
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(08-31-2020, 08:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re the stats guy, so I’ll take your word, but what about TO and Moss during that time?
They were both in dips in their career during that period. Owens was hurt and missed 9 games in 2005, and while he was good, he wasn't his normal level of good in 2004 and 2006. Moss I think was having his attitude problems or something because while he was healthy (at least 13 starts in all 3 years) he failed to reach even 800 yards receiving in 2004 and 2006. Moss went to New England in 2007 (and even then only out-gained Chad by 53 yards that year despite having Tom Brady while Chad outgained Owens in 2007 by 85 yards).
2004-2006
Terrell Owens: 209 catches/3,143 yards (15.0 AVG)/33 TDs ... Pro Bowl x1, All-Pro x1
Randy Moss: 151 catches/2,325 yards (15.4 AVG)/24 TDs ... Pro Bowl x0, All-Pro x0
Chad Johnson: 279 catches/4,075 yards (14.6 AVG)/25 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x2
During that 3 year span he was the best WR in the NFL, and the year before and after that 3 year span he was still easily Top-5 (90/1,355/10 in 2003 and 93/1,440/8 in 2007).
Mid-00s Chad was near-unstoppable.
2003-2007 Chad had 462 catches/6,870 yards (14.9 AVG)/43 TD... that's 92.4 catches/1,375 yards (14.9)/8.6 TDs per year while playing the Steelers/Ravens both constantly had elite defenses and defenses in the NFL could really get their hands on and hit a WR.
Think about that. Way tougher rules and defenses, and Chad was averaging enough yards per year in that 5 year span that even the average would be AJ Green's 2nd highest year ever. It's really impressive. Even more so when you realize that from 2004-2006, the NFL was averaging only 4 QBs that threw for at least 4,000 yards each year.
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(08-31-2020, 09:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They were both in dips in their career during that period. Owens was hurt and missed 9 games in 2005, and while he was good, he wasn't his normal level of good in 2004 and 2006. Moss I think was having his attitude problems or something because while he was healthy (at least 13 starts in all 3 years) he failed to reach even 800 yards receiving in 2004 and 2006. Moss went to New England in 2007 (and even then only out-gained Chad by 53 yards that year despite having Tom Brady while Chad outgained Owens in 2007 by 85 yards).
2004-2006
Terrell Owens: 209 catches/3,143 yards (15.0 AVG)/33 TDs ... Pro Bowl x1, All-Pro x1
Randy Moss: 151 catches/2,325 yards (15.4 AVG)/24 TDs ... Pro Bowl x0, All-Pro x0
Chad Johnson: 279 catches/4,075 yards (14.6 AVG)/25 TDs ... Pro Bowl x3, All-Pro x2
During that 3 year span he was the best WR in the NFL, and the year before and after that 3 year span he was still easily Top-5 (90/1,355/10 in 2003 and 93/1,440/8 in 2007).
Mid-00s Chad was near-unstoppable.
2003-2007 Chad had 462 catches/6,870 yards (14.9 AVG)/43 TD... that's 92.4 catches/1,375 yards (14.9)/8.6 TDs per year while playing the Steelers/Ravens both constantly had elite defenses and defenses in the NFL could really get their hands on and hit a WR.
Think about that. Way tougher rules and defenses, and Chad was averaging enough yards per year in that 5 year span that even the average would be AJ Green's 2nd highest year ever. It's really impressive. Even more so when you realize that from 2004-2006, the NFL was averaging only 4 QBs that threw for at least 4,000 yards each year.
Yup. Chad set an all time NFL record at that time for leading the conference in yards for 3 consecutive years. He was the only player to ever do that.
That record may actually still stand, but I'm too lazy to check. I know it still stood for a few years after the fact.
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