What makes unwelcome contact be of a sexual nature?

[Belsnickel]

Alright, so admittedly this is me trying to work through something for something I am doing for my workplace. Details will be sparse for obvious reasons. Male, who happens to be gay, smacks female on her ass. This makes female feel uncomfortable. The main argument from the male is that because he is gay it was clear the contact was not of a sexual nature. However, the female still felt the contact was sexual even knowing the male is gay.

Would you still consider this contact to be sexual in nature? Have you ever seen this sort of thing before? I'm genuinely not looking for an argument on this. I have a case I am working through where this is a question I have to wrestle with and I am conflicted.

[GMDino]

(10-04-2019, 01:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Alright, so admittedly this is me trying to work through something for something I am doing for my workplace. Details will be sparse for obvious reasons. Male, who happens to be gay, smacks female on her ass. This makes female feel uncomfortable. The main argument from the male is that because he is gay it was clear the contact was not of a sexual nature. However, the female still felt the contact was sexual even knowing the male is gay.

Would you still consider this contact to be sexual in nature? Have you ever seen this sort of thing before? I'm genuinely not looking for an argument on this. I have a case I am working through where this is a question I have to wrestle with and I am conflicted.

Short answer: Yes.  It was a violation of her personal space and the ass is considered much more off limits than if he had put a hand on her shoulder or back, IMHO.

Long answer: I have a friend from high school is FABULOUSLY gay and at a wedding last year for a fellow classmate he grabbed the brides breasts and said how good they looked.  I laughed out loud and told him that HE could get away with that and I never could.  He responded that he KNOWS he can get away with it and that's why he does it sometimes.  Now in THIS situation we have all known each other for over 30 years so no limits were tested or broken, however it leads to some gay men may feel like they have more leeway with women than they really have.

[BrownAssClown]

Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate behavior no matter who is doing it. You would think that in this day and age folks would know better than to smack co workers on their rear ends, except in sports like baseball where it still seems to be acceptable as a way of saying, "Way to go!" or "Good Job!"

[BrownAssClown]

As I read your question again I don't know if it was sexual to the gay male that did it, but does it have to be? The female seems to think it was a sexual gesture so since she is the victim in this I would go with that. Anyway you look at it, the male committed an inappropriate act.

[*bfine32*]

Not only is it sexual in nature, it could be construed as Sexual Assault. What would we call it (besides college) if I walked up and grabbed a dudes junk and my "defense" is I'm straight?

[Belsnickel]

So far, everyone is saying what I was thinking. Really was hoping that would be the case because I didn't want to seem like I was being overly sensitive to this sort of thing and I want to be fair to the male student. I'm still going to look for some more guidance on this from other sources, but this has been helpful for me. This is the first time I've had to adjudicate a case like this where I really have to sit down and try to parse out the terms in the policy.

Based on the statements I have read thus far there is zero doubt to me that the male student violated university policy, it's just Title IX cases are tough in this way.

(10-04-2019, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not only is it sexual in nature, it could be construed as Sexual Assault. What would we call it (besides college) if I walked up and grabbed a dudes junk and my "defense" is I'm straight?

The student is being accused of violating policies of sexual assault and sexual harassment, so you're spot on with this.

[BmorePat87]

(10-04-2019, 01:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Alright, so admittedly this is me trying to work through something for something I am doing for my workplace. Details will be sparse for obvious reasons. Male, who happens to be gay, smacks female on her ass. This makes female feel uncomfortable. The main argument from the male is that because he is gay it was clear the contact was not of a sexual nature. However, the female still felt the contact was sexual even knowing the male is gay.

Would you still consider this contact to be sexual in nature? Have you ever seen this sort of thing before? I'm genuinely not looking for an argument on this. I have a case I am working through where this is a question I have to wrestle with and I am conflicted.

Yes, I think it's safe to say that genitals, breasts, and ass instantly makes something sexual, regardless of the intent.

I've never seen this before at work. I've seen male and female coworkers talking or joking about sexual content in a platonic way and I've seen male coworkers jokingly make sexual comments to each other, but I've never seen any ass slapping. 

This is similar to that time the gay red carpet presenter grabbed Scarlet Johannson's boob.

[fredtoast]

Pretty clear cut that contact with "private parts" is sexual assault no matter who does it.

What if he had grabbed her crotch?

[fredtoast]

(10-04-2019, 01:54 PM)GMDino Wrote: Long answer: I have a friend from high school is FABULOUSLY gay and at a wedding last year for a fellow classmate he grabbed the brides breasts and said how good they looked.  I laughed out loud and told him that HE could get away with that and I never could.  He responded that he KNOWS he can get away with it and that's why he does it sometimes.  Now in THIS situation we have all known each other for over 30 years so no limits were tested or broken, however it leads to some gay men may feel like they have more leeway with women than they really have.

I don't understand how he got away with that.

Women don't let other women grab their boobs so why would a gay man be allowed to?

[GMDino]

(10-04-2019, 04:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand how he got away with that.

Women don't let other women grab their boobs so why would a gay man be allowed to?

30 years of friendship.  She knew his intent. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-04-2019, 04:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand how he got away with that.

Women don't let other women grab their boobs so why would a gay man be allowed to?

(10-04-2019, 04:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: 30 years of friendship.  She knew his intent. 

There is also really a thing in the gay community where stuff like this is very commonplace. It's one of the things that one of my gay friends complains about in the community a ton. The normalizing of behaviors that would be sexual assault otherwise not just between each other but also with the women that hang around them (and some straight guys) is seen a ton.

[GMDino]

(10-04-2019, 04:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is also really a thing in the gay community where stuff like this is very commonplace. It's one of the things that one of my gay friends complains about in the community a ton. The normalizing of behaviors that would be sexual assault otherwise not just between each other but also with the women that hang around them (and some straight guys) is seen a ton.

Context is important too.  Gay or not.

What he did may not have been "okay" with another friend, but between these two it was.

I'd gather that he doesn't think he can do it with "anyone".  And I've never seen him do anything with any of our other mutual friends that would cross a line.

[Mike M (the other one)]

It doesn't matter if he thinks it wasn't sexual in nature. What matters is how the woman perceives it.

In this case, she feels violated. Maybe she doesn't like being touched period, male or female. If you are in a work place always keep your hands to yourself. In a social setting it's a bit different. The two might know each other well enough to be able for it to be a non-issue.

[hollodero]

I'm no American and my opinion has zero legal value, but ass-slapping should be prohibited in any case, no matter anyone's gender or sexuality. Ass, thighs, breasts. It would be strange if it weren't so.

So not only is my opinion irrelevant, it's also just joining the choir. Still felt like sharing, because to me, this seems strange to even question. I'd say any need for being overly tolerant towards a "gay community" should play no part in the evaluation of any unwanted ass-slapping of any kind, as well as in any other regard. Imho.

[ballsofsteel]

(10-04-2019, 01:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Alright, so admittedly this is me trying to work through something for something I am doing for my workplace. Details will be sparse for obvious reasons. Male, who happens to be gay, smacks female on her ass. This makes female feel uncomfortable. The main argument from the male is that because he is gay it was clear the contact was not of a sexual nature. However, the female still felt the contact was sexual even knowing the male is gay.

Would you still consider this contact to be sexual in nature? Have you ever seen this sort of thing before? I'm genuinely not looking for an argument on this. I have a case I am working through where this is a question I have to wrestle with and I am conflicted.

If the gay guy would not want to have with that girl, it is not sexual. It is an assault. Tell him to keep his hands to himself.

[BmorePat87]

(10-04-2019, 04:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't understand how he got away with that.

Women don't let other women grab their boobs so why would a gay man be allowed to?

I mean they do and it's not unheard of for a close gay friend to have a similar relationship. 

But at work, no.

[*bfine32*]

Kinda off subject but didn't Chad Johnson get in trouble with a judge in court for giving his lawyer the "good game" slap?

[Belsnickel]

(10-04-2019, 05:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: I'm no American and my opinion has zero legal value, but ass-slapping should be prohibited in any case, no matter anyone's gender or sexuality. Ass, thighs, breasts. It would be strange if it weren't so.

So not only is my opinion irrelevant, it's also just joining the choir. Still felt like sharing, because to me, this seems strange to even question. I'd say any need for being overly tolerant towards a "gay community" should play no part in the evaluation of any unwanted ass-slapping of any kind, as well as in any other regard. Imho.

This isn't me trying to be overly tolerant, this is me trying to break down the idea of when contact becomes sexual in nature.

[Millhouse]

For this kind of instance, sexuality shouldn't matter. Intentionally touching someones butt at the workplace is exactly that, and should be treated the same regardless who does it or what sexuality they claim they are.

[hollodero]

(10-04-2019, 07:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This isn't me trying to be overly tolerant, this is me trying to break down the idea of when contact becomes sexual in nature.

Yeah I get that. I just don't think this gay argument matters in the first place.

Whoever touches someone at breast or behind crosses a line. One that is sexual in nature. For the person being touched, that is. For the person touching it might be sexual, but it might as well merely be meant as something else, eg. an act of humiliation or a power move or whatever. Imho, the baseline should be "not ok" under any circumstances.

Now if "no bad sexual intentions" can play a role, if the ass slapper is 100% gay for example (something I already find hard to prove in the first place), that I can not evaluate either. I say every touching of the sexual sphere is sexual in nature and should be treated as such, no exceptions.