(08-26-2023, 03:34 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Dam i need 12k votes, make sure those chads are punched properly. OMG I'm trying to overthrow an election.
When will you learn that many Trump Supporters don't care and see it as a political attack period? Even if charged, MANY will still feel the same. Some or a Miniscule amount might leave the flock, but the majority won't and will just dig in even deeper.
Gore conceded.
WE know supporters of 1135809 don't care or believe it isn't "fair" but to save just one from the "flock" is worth the effort.
Quote:4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-26-2023, 01:21 AM)Dill Wrote: Well, there's "fighting the government" like Jimmy Stewart in Mr Smith Goes to Washington,
and then there's "INSURRECTION."
You SHOULD be "next" if you attempt to overturn a valid election, denying Americans their votes.
If you want to persuade people in this forum Trump is really mistreated
then explain why we should get behind election fraud. Why should we ditch democracy for your Dear Leader?
I don't have to explain it. The burden of proof lies with the Democratic prosecutors. Your opinion he is guilty until proven innocent. This is how our black community feels when they are arrested. The court system (not you or me) will determine if he is guilty.
This week we saw 2 the people in the hood of Atlanta were cheering for Trump as his motorcade went past them. Trump turned a staged political stunt of taking a mugshot into a great marketing tool.
People say why did he say never surrender and then turned himself in to Fulton County. He had no choice, it is him following the justice system rules. But, take a good look at that photo (I can't get a great photo for a DL), he is saying I am defiant, I will fight until the end to clear my name.
Democrats just ignore the brilliance of Trump because they hate and fear him be elected in 2024. Well, these stunt may be the catalyst for him winning 2024 if he improves the black vote from 12% to 15%.
We will find out in time if the Democrats spending so much time of destroying their chief political rival, having him indicted plays well for them or backfires. Like I said, i have no burden to prove anything, that lies with the prosecution in every case.
Sadly, we now have a new norm, the party in power can and will go after political opponents. I call it a boomerang impact, don't forget the Democrats started this practice and the liberal media is openly laughing and giving high 5's, let's see how they react when the tide shifts and Democrats are persecuted for their political beliefs.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(08-25-2023, 02:11 PM)pally Wrote: no you weren't you were trying for a "whataboutism" However, what Joe Bide has or hasn't done is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. YOU asked what the impact on voters if he was forced to to take a mug shot. I provided information on that topic and you changed the subject.
People were commenting that he looked like a thug and laughing at the idea he told them he was 6ft 3in and 215lbs both obviously not true.
Who is Trump running against? Any impact positive or negative impacts the declared Democratic 2024 nominee.
Big whoop, Trump is fat shamed by the media and you. As for height, you are wrong. It appears you have been caught in a lie.
(08-26-2023, 11:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't have to explain it. The burden of proof lies with the Democratic prosecutors. Your opinion he is guilty until proven innocent. This is how our black community feels when they are arrested. The court system (not you or me) will determine if he is guilty.
This week we saw 2 the people in the hood of Atlanta were cheering for Trump as his motorcade went past them. Trump turned a staged political stunt of taking a mugshot into a great marketing tool.
People say why did he say never surrender and then turned himself in to Fulton County. He had no choice, it is him following the justice system rules. But, take a good look at that photo (I can't get a great photo for a DL), he is saying I am defiant, I will fight until the end to clear my name.
Democrats just ignore the brilliance of Trump because they hate and fear him be elected in 2024. Well, these stunt may be the catalyst for him winning 2024 if he improves the black vote from 12% to 15%.
We will find out in time if the Democrats spending so much time of destroying their chief political rival, having him indicted plays well for them or backfires. Like I said, i have no burden to prove anything, that lies with the prosecution in every case.
Sadly, we now have a new norm, the party in power can and will go after political opponents. I call it a boomerang impact, don't forget the Democrats started this practice and the liberal media is openly laughing and giving high 5's, let's see how they react when the tide shifts and Democrats are persecuted for their political beliefs.
LOL The "billionaire" needs your money, so he staged a "defiant" mug shot. That's some GRIFTER BRILLIANCE for sure.
Just like he has staged everything, including the Big Lie about election fraud, and you fell for it.
Why shouldn't people "hate" a rapist who tried to overturn a valid election, and who will break government if he gets back in power?
What "political beliefs" do you think Trump is being persecuted for? His hatred of fair elections? His love of power?
His willingness to break the law and use his office to retain power?
You act like it's perfectly ok to organize a coup to stay in power, as if you won't REALLY know he did until a jury says so.
Meantime, You DO KNOW Biden is guilty, based on 8-year-old hearsay? This is how our black community feels when arrested.
And again, after the Clinton impeachment and Benghazi, another Trump supporter complaining the party in power "can and will go after
political opponents"? While your seditious leader promises RETRIBUTION? a NEW NORM?
Jeezus. There's only ONE party that does that, and it's not in power now.
(08-26-2023, 03:34 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Dam i need 12k votes, make sure those chads are punched properly. OMG I'm trying to overthrow an election.
When will you learn that many Trump Supporters don't care and see it as a political attack period? Even if charged, MANY will still feel the same. Some or a Miniscule amount might leave the flock, but the majority won't and will just dig in even deeper.
"Damn, The Secretary of Defense won't seize voting machines. The DOJ will refuse to declare the election invalid. New plan: I need to invalidate the votes of 7 swing states. Make sure the GOP leaders in those states forge a list of fake electors and present it to Pence on 1/6. Meanwhile I'll whip up a mob with my Big Lie and sic them on the Capitol at the same time. Even if I'm caught my supporters will just ask 'how is that overthrowing an election?'"
Why do you think I haven't "learned" that Trump supporters don't care about democracy or the rule of law?
That's why they see holding Trump accountable as an "attack." They don't care if he broke the law because they want an authoritarian leader.
And that is the #1 problem in the country right now, making it almost ungovernable. Independents who won't "feel the same" may be all that
stands between us and "retribution."
(08-26-2023, 08:40 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I think that people are slowly processing the fact that he is going to jail. Some people might be offended but justice is not about feelings.
BTW, to all those people who think it doesn't have to be in a trial, what about his co defendants ? Might be the only one not to be judged for his crime while his cronies will ? Or it is just a total exoneration for everybody involved ?
Over 700 convictions of his followers for the Capitol rioting--and one dead--all motivated by Trump's Big Lie,
most unaware they were part of a larger plan.
Now 18 more in Georgia, and Trump says "I don't know those people."
Plus his own employee in Florida thrown under the bus.
And after convincing 50 million the election was stolen, he then convinced them that his legal reckoning is "persecution."
(08-26-2023, 12:35 PM)Dill Wrote: Why shouldn't people "hate" a rapist who tried to overturn a valid election, and who will break government if he gets back in power?
I must've missed this but when was Trump ever convicted of rape? Wouldn't that prevent him from being president? Or is this something new? I know there was a civil case that said Trump was liable for sexual battery or something like that...but again, that's civil (and as we all know requires and extremely low burden of proof)
(08-26-2023, 12:35 PM)Dill Wrote: You act like it's perfectly ok to organize a coup to stay in power, as if you won't REALLY know he did until a jury says so.
If he "organized a coup" why isn't that said anywhere in the indictment? Wouldn't we find this law in the indictment?
I think this is what you're talking about but I'm not certain.
(08-26-2023, 01:06 PM)Dill Wrote: And after convincing 50 million the election was stolen, he then convinced them that his legal reckoning is "persecution."
Where does this 50M number come from? I thought maybe you were just assuming everyone who voted for Trump also assumed the election was stolen but it looks like he got 74M votes.
So i'm guessing there's a poll out there somewhere that says maybe "2 out of 3 Trump voters believe the election was stolen"?
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
(08-26-2023, 01:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: I must've missed this but when was Trump ever convicted of rape? Wouldn't that prevent him from being president? Or is this something new? I know there was a civil case that said Trump was liable for sexual battery or something like that...but again, that's civil (and as we all know requires and extremely low burden of proof)
In his and almost every other Liberal's head.
Even Pally got the number of miles wrong (4) that Trump actually put up and he had around 150-200 MORE miles with supplies already starting to get under way til Biden stopped it. When either side keeps doing this, it makes the credibility of the argument harder.
The Customs and Border Protection report says the Trump administration built 52 miles of new primary wall systems and 33 miles of new secondary wall systems where there were none before.
Besides the new miles of border barriers, Trump’s administration also replaced 351 miles of primary barriers and 22 miles of secondary barriers that were smaller and dilapidated.
(08-26-2023, 01:45 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Are you saying Trump didn't concede?
In the case of Gore, he did demand recounts in the State of FL (where he lost narrowly), why wasn't that treated as trying to overturn the election?
But that wasn't my real point, my point was going forward if anyone challenges the votes, then it can be viewed as working to overturn the results.
because he followed the legal process set out to challenge elections and when his legal options ran out he conceded. He also did not claim the elections were rigged (before they even happened) if he lost
Trump used the courts and then claimed they were wrong when he lost all those cases and kept pursuing his claims outside of legal limits..ie fake electors
(08-26-2023, 02:18 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: In his and almost every other Liberal's head.
Even Pally got the number of miles wrong (4) that Trump actually put up and he had around 150-200 MORE miles with supplies already starting to get under way til Biden stopped it. When either side keeps doing this, it makes the credibility of the argument harder.
The Customs and Border Protection report says the Trump administration built 52 miles of new primary wall systems and 33 miles of new secondary wall systems where there were none before.
Besides the new miles of border barriers, Trump’s administration also replaced 351 miles of primary barriers and 22 miles of secondary barriers that were smaller and dilapidated.
yep, I was wrong...but I wasn't wrong about Mexico not paying for it. And you have to admit the number of miles of new or repaired wall doesn't equate to the wall being complete along the over 1900 miles border, as he claimed in the CNN town hall
(08-26-2023, 01:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: Where does this 50M number come from? I thought maybe you were just assuming everyone who voted for Trump also assumed the election was stolen but it looks like he got 74M votes.
So i'm guessing there's a poll out there somewhere that says maybe "2 out of 3 Trump voters believe the election was stolen"?
(08-26-2023, 01:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: I must've missed this but when was Trump ever convicted of rape? Wouldn't that prevent him from being president? Or is this something new? I know there was a civil case that said Trump was liable for sexual battery or something like that...but again, that's civil (and as we all know requires and extremely low burden of proof)
Also, "lower burden of proof than a criminal case" =/= "extremely low burden of proof."
If the latter were the case, people could just live off defamation suits.
(08-26-2023, 01:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: If he "organized a coup" why isn't that said anywhere in the indictment? Wouldn't we find this law in the indictment?
I think this is what you're talking about but I'm not certain. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385
My 10 minute degree from the Google School of Law says this is the law you would be tried for if you "organized a coup"
Edit: really digging the subtle color change in quotes...makes it much cleaner and easier to read
I don't know if you've noticed, but another term I have been regularly using is "autogolpe," or a self coup, which occurs when someone already in power uses skullduggery to circumvent a valid election to remain in power. Trump considered having the DoD seize voting machines, and then having the DOJ state that the election was compromised by irregularities, but in each case "the swamp" resisted. The Green Bay Sweep and the Capitol "protest" were then plan C to circumvent the legal and valid election results.
I'm not in Jack Smith's head, nor am I a lawyer, but I'm thinking the statute to which you refer would be rather difficult to apply, since Trump never voiced an intention to "destroy" or "overthrow" the U.S. gov., though one consequence was a violent assault on the Capitol and Congress. While that looks like "violent overthrow," it's not clear that the US could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Capitol breach was intended. The plan was, though, to retain control of the exec. branch illegally.
I think Smith just wants to go with clean and simple--what he can directly prove, which is a criminal conspiracy to deny voters their right to vote, conspiracy to obstruct a government proceeding, and actually obstructing it. Had Trump been successful, he'd still be president and the people's choice would not. Someone else would have to explain to you why that would not be a coup. I cannot.
Hence your labeling him a rapist is incorrect. Civil court uses a significantly lower standard of proof, nor does it require a unanimous jury to reach a verdict. I mentioned long ago that Trump groped a friend of mine at an event, so I have no sympathy for him in this regard. But if we're going to be accurate then we need to be accurate across the board. You were inaccurate.
(08-26-2023, 04:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hence your labeling him a rapist is incorrect. Civil court uses a significantly lower standard of proof, nor does it require a unanimous jury to reach a verdict. I mentioned long ago that Trump groped a friend of mine at an event, so I have no sympathy for him in this regard. But if we're going to be accurate then we need to be accurate across the board. You were inaccurate.
"A judge has now clarified that this is basically a legal distinction without a real-world difference. He says that what the jury found Trump did was in fact rape, as commonly understood."
Was the judge "inaccurate"?
You are arguing that a unanimous jury "finding" that Trump did, in fact, rape Carroll, as commonly understood, doesn't make him a "rapist"?
Only a criminal conviction could legitimate use of the term "rapist" on a message board?
(08-26-2023, 04:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I mentioned long ago that Trump groped a friend of mine at an event, so I have no sympathy for him in this regard. But if we're going to be accurate then we need to be accurate across the board.
LOL,
totally off topic but this reminded me of a story told to me by a girl I used to date back in 2005.
Long story short, Jerry Jones was at a club, asked to whisper something in her ear and instead of whispering (anything) he just licked it....lol...
But yes, if we're serious about being accurate then some of these comments need to be reigned in equally
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
(08-26-2023, 05:01 PM)Dill Wrote: "A judge has now clarified that this is basically a legal distinction without a real-world difference. He says that what the jury found Trump did was in fact rape, as commonly understood."
Was the judge "inaccurate"?
You are arguing that a unanimous jury "finding" that Trump did, in fact, rape Carroll, as commonly understood,
doesn't make him a "rapist"?
Only a criminal conviction could legitimate use of the term "rapist" on a message board?
And a judge signed off on a search warrant for the raid in Kansas on that newspaper, but apparently that was insufficient in that thread. You guys' faith in a judge's decision seems to be largely predicated on whether you personally agree with the decision. I could point to the Dobbs decision for another example of you showing disdain for judicial competence. An inconsistent opinion is a useless opinion.
As for the judge's statement, it's in blindingly inaccurate. There is a world of difference between a criminal conviction and being found liable in civil court. Large parts of this have already been explained to you. The burden of proof is significantly lower. In civil court is is "preponderance of the evidence" which literally means 50.01% likely versus 49.99% unlikely. You also don't need a unanimous jury. So no, there is an enormous "real-world" difference between that and a criminal conviction.
Also, "lower burden of proof than a criminal case" =/= "extremely low burden of proof."
If the latter were the case, people could just live off defamation suits.
SSP kinda already hit on this...also, the judge here is providing a personal opinion and it's not a statement of fact.
(08-26-2023, 04:39 PM)Dill Wrote: I'm not in Jack Smith's head, nor am I a lawyer, but I'm thinking the statute to which you refer would be rather difficult to apply, since Trump never voiced an intention to "destroy" or "overthrow" the U.S. gov., though one consequence was a violent assault on the Capitol and Congress. While that looks like "violent overthrow," it's not clear that the US could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the Capitol breach was intended. The plan was, though, to retain control of the exec. branch illegally.
But then it sounds like you're just providing speculation and opinion and not actual fact like it came across.
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
(08-26-2023, 01:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: I must've missed this but when was Trump ever convicted of rape? Wouldn't that prevent him from being president? Or is this something new? I know there was a civil case that said Trump was liable for sexual battery or something like that...but again, that's civil (and as we all know requires and extremely low burden of proof)
Trump wasn't convicted of raping E Jean Carroll because when he did it he was a democrat, and as conservatives keep telling me we have a two-tiered justice system that only goes after republicans.
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