When can do away with "no knock" warrants?

[GMDino]

(02-09-2022, 08:11 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is what I was thinking about with all the societal issues. I was very fortunate in my younger years because I hung around with the wrong people. However, I also hung around with the right people. One of my friends from family connections and Scouting who is a few years older than me is the current Captain for our PD that oversees Special Operations and Criminal Investigations. I've known many other officers over the years through school connections, Scouts, etc. They knew me and knew that while I was a little shit I wasn't doing the same things some of the people I hung around with were doing. But it was that knowledge of how things worked that allowed me to distance myself from the worst of the folks in my area.

"Oh, hey, we're going over to so-and-so's house to catch a buzz and play Halo. Want to come along?" I would base my decision on a lot of things, and some of that would be just how much criminal activity that person took place in. Did I want to get high and play Halo? **** yeah, that was a great time. But what wouldn't be a great time was some drug deal gone wrong while we were there or something else like that. But my friends would still go, and they would go because it was their cousin, or brother, or childhood best friend, or whatever. None of them were into meth, but that person sure sold it along with the weed my buddies would be smoking (not in it, just as well as).

I did a lot of trimming of people in my life, and that's because I was able to. I think the biggest problem for some folks is, though, that the people that can drag them down are the safety net they have in life. I know that is the case for many people that used to be in my circle of friends. And I know a lot of those people that drag them down are part of a cycle that has been going on for generations. I know their families. I know their parents, I know their children, I grew up in their neighborhood. This is how I can look at situations like this with a more nuanced take than a lot of people are able to give it.

I haven't had time to follow up on this story much but do we know the apartment actually had a "bad guy" there?

This was a warrant for a person of interest.  What if they had the wrong guy?  What if the victim was hanging out with someone who he should have been hanging out with?

My point is that this is shading toward victim blaming.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-09-2022, 09:58 AM)GMDino Wrote: I haven't had time to follow up on this story much but do we know the apartment actually had a "bad guy" there?

Because a judge found enough evidence to issue a no knock warrant for the premises.  That's an extremely high burden of proof to hurdle.

Quote:This was a warrant for a person of interest.  What if they had the wrong guy?  What if the victim was hanging out with someone who he should have been hanging out with?

Yes.  They didn't.  What does that last sentence even mean?

Quote:My point is that this is shading toward victim blaming.

Except it's not, as we both predicated our position by saying it was not.  The liberal talking points, while predictable, really stifle any chance to have a meaningful discussion on an issue.

[GMDino]

So it turns out one of the people they were looking for was the 17 year old cousin of the man they killed.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/us/arrest-no-knock-warrant-amir-locke-investigation/index.html

They searched three apartments, didn't get the person they were looking for, but did find a way to justify one by finding marijuana...ooohhh.

Oh, and they found the suspect.  Didn't have to break into an apartment and took him without incident.  Weird considering they seem to have thought they needed that element of surprise and force to take him with the no knock warrant.

Quote:(CNN)A Minneapolis SWAT team serving a warrant that led to an officer shooting Amir Locke was looking for his teenage cousin and two others in connection with a homicide investigation, according to the court documents released Tuesday.


Authorities linked Locke's cousin, 17-year-old Mekhi Speed, to a homicide in St. Paul, Minnesota, through surveillance footage and a "distinct" car that investigators suspected to have been stolen, and that was allegedly used as a getaway car in the homicide, according to court records made public Tuesday in connection with Speed's arrest.


Minneapolis police were executing a search warrant in connection with the cousin of Amir Locke and two others, prosecutors say, when police killed Locke in early February. At the time, Locke's cousin was among three people wanted in connection with a homicide, according to court documents released Tuesday.


The arrest and criminal complaint released by prosecutors provide a detailed timeline of the alleged crimes that were committed that led authorities to obtain warrants for three apartments in the building where Locke was shot last Wednesday.



Attorneys for the Locke family released a statement Tuesday confirming Speed was Locke's cousin, reading in part, "His cousin was not present in Unit 701," the statement began. "We must remain focused on the fact that Amir was an innocent young man of a raid gone terribly wrong, who is now the latest statistic and victim of the dangerous and intrusive no-knock warrant techniques that must be banned."



[/url]
What Minneapolis' current no-knock warrant policy really says

Prosecutors say the allegedly stolen car, a Mercedes-Benz with front-end damage and a lit front emblem, was believed to have been tied to an armed robbery in early December; an armed robbery, attempted robbery and gun report on the same date in late December; and a suspected vehicle theft in early January, all before the homicide on January 10, according to court documents.


Teen faces murder charges
Speed faced two counts of second-degree murder. Prosecutors said they plan to petition the court to try the 17-year-old as an adult. The charges stem from a January 10 incident, prosecutors say, when St. Paul police officers responded to a report of a man -- Otis Elder -- who had been shot. Elder, 38, later died.


Investigators tracked the Mercedes-Benz, prosecutors say, from the scene of that crime to the Bolero Flats apartment complex in Minneapolis.  According to the petition filed, both St. Paul and Minneapolis Police obtained search warrants for apartments 701, 1402, and 1403 at the complex and had what the court documents describe as "probable cause pick up and holds" for Mekhi Speed and two associates, meaning police established cause to make an arrest.

When Minneapolis Police executed its warrant on apartment 701, Locke appeared to be lying on the couch under a blanket when they keyed into the apartment, yelling commands, according to court records and body camera footage.



Amir Locke's family calls for a full ban on no-knock warrants as the Minneapolis mayor answers City Council questions about city's policies

Police were looking for Speed, court documents say. After entering the apartment, police kicked the couch where Locke was lying down, according to body camera footage. As Locke began to get up, holding a gun his family says he legally owned, Officer Mark Hanneman shot him, according to the city of Minneapolis. Locke later died of multiple gunshot wounds. 

Hanneman has been placed on administrative leave, as is policy, pending the ongoing investigation. The Minneapolis Police Officers Federation released a statement, reading in part, "Officers were obviously prepared for a very dangerous and high-risk situation. During the event, as shown in the body-camera footage, Officer Hanneman quickly encountered Mr. Locke who was armed with a handgun and made the decision to use deadly force."

"No officer goes into a dangerous setting like this wanting to use a weapon. That decision was not taken lightly, and the impact of the use of deadly force will affect these officers, their families, and the family of Mr. Locke for the rest of their lives," it continued.

Two types of warrants were issued
At a news conference the day after the shooting, interim Police Chief Amelia Huffman said, "Both a no-knock and a knock search warrant were obtained for those locations so that the SWAT team could assess the circumstances and make the best possible decision about entry."

Speed's brother along with his brother's girlfriend were also present when the warrant was executed, according to court documents.

Two other people were listed as being detained that morning at that address by a Minneapolis incident detail report.



[url=https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/05/us/minneapolis-police-shooting-amir-locke-parents/index.html]Amir Locke's parents say their son got a gun legally, but they always worried about interactions with police

Police also executed warrants at another apartment in the same complex, where prosecutors said he was listed as a resident, but they said Speed was not there at the time. However, police seized a black hat and duffle bag that prosecutors said matched those seen the night of the killing. Speed's friend was associated with apartment 1403, prosecutors allege, but someone else was there when officers executed the warrant, according to court documents, and a "large amount of marijuana" was seized. 

Officers eventually located Speed in Winona, Minnesota, about 100 miles southeast of Minneapolis. He was arrested with a loaded gun, and in what appeared to be the same black jacket worn by the person shown in the videos from the scene when Elder was shot, according to prosecutors. Speed attempted to flee, but was arrested, according to the document.

Speed was expected to make his initial court appearance at the Ramsey County Juvenile and Family Justice Center on Tuesday afternoon.

Another day of protests
In Minneapolis, hundreds of people marched downtown on Tuesday night to protest last week's fatal shooting.
Protestors could be heard chanting slogans calling for police accountability and shouting, "What's his name? Amir Locke! Say his name. Amir Locke!"

Organizers spoke to the crowd through a sound system in a vehicle and invoked the names of other Black men from the area who were killed by police: George Floyd and Philando Castile. They pledged to return Wednesday as the march ended.

In neighboring St. Paul, demonstrators marched to the state capitol.

Earlier on Tuesday, hundreds of Twin Cities students walked out of class in protest of no-knock warrants, calling for justice for Locke.

"It shows we're not just little kids. If we know we can make a change, we're more than happy to do it," high school senior Nevaeh Wiley told CNN affiliate WCCO. "It is truly traumatizing to know I have brothers, uncles, friends that could have their lives taken in a matter of seconds."

Also the NRA released a statement defending Locke and his right to own a weapon to protect himself.

Just kidding.  They haven't said a damn word.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 01:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: So it turns out one of the people they were looking for was the 17 year old cousin of the man they killed.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/us/arrest-no-knock-warrant-amir-locke-investigation/index.html

They searched three apartments, didn't get the person they were looking for, but did find a way to justify one by finding marijuana...ooohhh.

Oh, and they found the suspect.  Didn't have to break into an apartment and took him without incident.  Weird considering they seem to have thought they needed that element of surprise and force to take him with the no knock warrant.



Also the NRA released a statement defending Locke and his right to own a weapon to protect himself.

Just kidding.  They haven't said a damn word.

Oh wait, you mean you're upset the police used all means at their disposal to track down and apprehend a murder suspect?  Being the expert on law enforcement that you are, please explain to the class what you would do if you had a homicide suspect and three likely locations that they could be located?  I know you won't answer, for many reasons, but I really wish you would because I need a good laugh already today.


For anyone just reading this response, I'll reiterate what both Bel and I have said about this situation.  None of the parties involved did anything wrong and it's tragic that this young man died.

[treee]

(02-10-2022, 01:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  None of the parties involved did anything wrong and it's tragic that this young man died.

But are you sending them your thoughts and prayers?

[basballguy]

(02-10-2022, 01:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, and they found the suspect.  Didn't have to break into an apartment and took him without incident.  Weird considering they seem to have thought they needed that element of surprise and force to take him with the no knock warrant.

Took him without incident? lol......

Taken from the story you linked:

"Officers eventually located Speed in Winona, Minnesota, about 100 miles southeast of Minneapolis. He was arrested with a loaded gun, and in what appeared to be the same black jacket worn by the person shown in the videos from the scene when Elder was shot, according to prosecutors. Speed attempted to flee, but was arrested, according to the document."




So how exactly would you have handled this if he was at the apartment?  These are exact reasons why no knock warrants exist.  

[GMDino]

(02-10-2022, 03:24 PM)basballguy Wrote: Took him without incident?  lol......

Taken from the story you linked:

"Officers eventually located Speed in Winona, Minnesota, about 100 miles southeast of Minneapolis. He was arrested with a loaded gun, and in what appeared to be the same black jacket worn by the person shown in the videos from the scene when Elder was shot, according to prosecutors. Speed attempted to flee, but was arrested, according to the document."




So how exactly would you have handled this if he was at the apartment?  These are exact reasons why no knock warrants exist.  

They arrested him without killing anyone.  He had a gun and didn't shoot anyone while attempting to flee.

But sure, breaking into an apartment and yelling was the "safer" choice. Because those never go wrong.

[basballguy]

(02-10-2022, 03:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: They arrested him without killing anyone.  He had a gun and didn't shoot anyone while attempting to flee.

But sure, breaking into an apartment and yelling was the "safer" choice. Because those never go wrong.

You have a very strange barometer for gauging incidents.  "As long as nobody died!"  

That aside...I'll ask again since you didn't answer.

How would you recommend it be handled?

[GMDino]

(02-10-2022, 03:57 PM)basballguy Wrote: You have a very strange barometer for gauging incidents.  "As long as nobody died!"  

That aside...I'll ask again since you didn't answer.

How would you recommend it be handled?

You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers.

The police decided, based on what they thought/believed that the no knock was "safer" for them.  Someone got killed and their suspect wasn't there.

Later they arrested the subject after he tried to flee but no one was hurt.  Neither the police nor the suspect.

That seems to be a better way to handle it.

Oh and "nobody died" should be the goal, shouldn't it?

[basballguy]

(02-10-2022, 04:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers.

The police decided, based on what they thought/believed that the no knock was "safer" for them.  Someone got killed and their suspect wasn't there.

Later they arrested the subject after he tried to flee but no one was hurt.  Neither the police nor the suspect.

That seems to be a better way to handle it.

Oh and "nobody died" should be the goal, shouldn't it?

I'll ask a 3rd time.....

If the suspect was in the apartment...How should it have been handled?  

Are you saying they should've just not entered, wait for him to flee the city over 100 miles away, then send people chasing after him and hope he doesn't fire the loaded weapon he has on him?  

You are saying we shouldn't have no knock warrants.  Cool...i get it.  So what I'm asking is what would you do instead?  

[GMDino]

(02-10-2022, 04:20 PM)basballguy Wrote: I'll ask a 3rd time.....

If the suspect was in the apartment...How should it have been handled?  

Are you saying they should've just not entered, wait for him to flee the city over 100 miles away, then send people chasing after him and hope he doesn't fire the loaded weapon he has on him?  

You are saying we shouldn't have no knock warrants.  Cool...i get it.  So what I'm asking is what would you do instead?  

This routine looks familiar so I'll just answer once more and then be done with you.

(02-10-2022, 04:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: You have a way of ignoring straightforward answers.

The police decided, based on what they thought/believed that the no knock was "safer" for them.  Someone got killed and their suspect wasn't there.

Later they arrested the subject after he tried to flee but no one was hurt.  Neither the police nor the suspect.

That seems to be a better way to handle it.

Oh and "nobody died" should be the goal, shouldn't it?

Suspect was captured in public...safely.

But I suspect you'll add a new/different question and then accuse me of not answering your questions.

[basballguy]

(02-10-2022, 04:35 PM)GMDino Wrote: This routine looks familiar so I'll just answer once more and then be done with you.


Suspect was captured in public...safely.

But I suspect you'll add a new/different question and then accuse me of not answering your questions.

Either you don't want to answer or i'm doing a very poor job of asking....if the latter, i apologize.  

Yes, he was captured a week later far away....and "without incident" by your definition.  To me, fleeing cops is an incident.  But that's moot and not what i'm asking now.

Let's put on our make believe hat for a minute.  Let's make believe this homicide suspect was actually in one of the three apartments they searched.  

Your responses are vague and indirect.  I am asking...IF THE DUDE WAS  IN THE APARTMENT, WHAT WOULD YOU PREFER TO HAPPEN?  

By how you're responding, I am not able to tell what your alternative is to a no knock warrant where the suspect is actually at the place of the warrant.  

"We should be able to arrest them without incident"....yes of course we should.  Everyone would love that.  How would you go about arresting the homicide suspect without incident? 

Edit: The only thing i can assume with your response...since i'm clearly not understanding and you're clearly too smug to help me understand....is you're suggesting the police wait until he tries to flee the apartment then attempt to apprehend him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 03:09 PM)treee Wrote: But are you sending them your thoughts and prayers?

Nope, but sarcasm noted.  As Bel said earlier, it's possible for everyone to do the right thing and a bad thing still occurs.  Are you sending out your knee jerk, uninformed opinions on no knock warrants and their efficacy?  That's probably a more pertinent question.

[treee]

(02-10-2022, 06:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nope, but sarcasm noted.  As Bel said earlier, it's possible for everyone to do the right thing and a bad thing still occurs.  Are you sending out your knee jerk, uninformed opinions on no knock warrants and their efficacy?  That's probably a more pertinent question.

I'm not the one knee jerking. I just think you're overly dismissive about innocent people getting shot to death by agents of the state. You can call me uninformed for not taking your word that there isn't a better way if you want, that's fine with me.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 06:28 PM)treee Wrote: I'm not the one knee jerking. I just think you're overly dismissive about innocent people getting shot to death by agents of the state.

Exactly how am I being dismissive?  

Quote:You can call me uninformed for not taking your word that there isn't a better way if you want, that's fine with me.

Well, are you uninformed?  Are you trained in law enforcement tactics?  Do you have experience working as a law enforcement officer?  Have you been involved in drafting policy for law enforcement agencies?  Have you ever served a warrant, no knock or otherwise?  My answer to every question but the first is, yes.  

After answering those questions, you tell me, are you informed on this topic?

[treee]

(02-10-2022, 06:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Exactly how am I being dismissive?  


Well, are you uninformed?  Are you trained in law enforcement tactics?  Do you have experience working as a law enforcement officer?  Have you been involved in drafting policy for law enforcement agencies?  Have you ever served a warrant, no knock or otherwise?  My answer to every question but the first is, yes.  

After answering those questions, you tell me, are you informed on this topic?

I'm calling into question whether the societal cost in minimized by the policy. 

There is what you call the "emotional" component; The cost of an innocent life. But there are other costs like the literal cost to the taxpayers, the cost against the trust of the public with the state. 

What from your expertise can dispell the assertion that the societal cost is not higher with the policy than some other alternative?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 07:32 PM)treee Wrote: I'm calling into question whether the societal cost in minimized by the policy.

Fine, then just say that instead of trying to make it about you being accused of being uninformed as to this practice. 

Quote:There is what you call the "emotional" component; The cost of an innocent life. But there are other costs like the literal cost to the taxpayers, the cost against the trust of the public with the state. 

What from your expertise can dispell the assertion that the societal cost is not higher with the policy than some other alternative?

If the past two years are any indication, as well as this thread, I can do nothing to dispel this perception.  You all have your narrative, you all blindly accept it and you all refuse to hear any opinion to the contrary.  I said literally years ago that we would start seeing a huge crime spike.  I was met with guffaws from the usual suspects.  Then, when it couldn't be ignored anymore it became, "I know murder and violent crime is way up, but all crime isn't up."  Now, as it continues to progressively worsen by the week, I'm getting the, "Dems support law enforcement and we have to do something about this crime spike!"


Be honest, you don't want to listen to people with expertise.  You want to run with your preferred narrative, and you'll continue to do so until your told the narrative has changed, just like the Dems and "defund the police" or the Dems and mask mandates.  if you really wanted expertise then all of this could have been nipped in the bud long ago, but you don't so you got what you got.  If you want to double down, that's fine, just don't expect me to buy into it or not call it out.


EDIT: I looked back on this and it comes off far more accusatory of you then I intended. My goal was to speak generically, and I obviously did not achieve that goal. To be clear, my point is about people in that position in general, not specific to you.

[treee]

(02-10-2022, 07:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Fine, then just say that instead of trying to make it about you being accused of being uninformed as to this practice. 


If the past two years are any indication, as well as this thread, I can do nothing to dispel this perception.  You all have your narrative, you all blindly accept it and you all refuse to hear any opinion to the contrary.  I said literally years ago that we would start seeing a huge crime spike.  I was met with guffaws from the usual suspects.  Then, when it couldn't be ignored anymore it became, "I know murder and violent crime is way up, but all crime isn't up."  Now, as it continues to progressively worsen by the week, I'm getting the, "Dems support law enforcement and we have to do something about this crime spike!"


Be honest, you don't want to listen to people with expertise.  You want to run with your preferred narrative, and you'll continue to do so until your told the narrative has changed, just like the Dems and "defund the police" or the Dems and mask mandates.  if you really wanted expertise then all of this could have been nipped in the bud long ago, but you don't so you got what you got.  If you want to double down, that's fine, just don't expect me to buy into it or not call it out.


EDIT:  I looked back on this and it comes off far more accusatory of you then I intended.  My goal was to speak generically, and I obviously did not achieve that goal.  To be clear, my point is about people in that position in general, not specific to you.

No it's alright man I get it. It's a convenient refrain to fall back on. The 'ol "you won't agree with me anyway so I'm not gonna bother trying to engage with you". I happen to think I add value to PnR but it's clear you think otherwise.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2022, 08:03 PM)treee Wrote: No it's alright man I get it. It's a convenient refrain to fall back on. The 'ol "you won't agree with me anyway so I'm not gonna bother trying to engage with you". I happen to think I add value to PnR but it's clear you think otherwise.

Dude, I asked you for alternatives.  You didn't provide any.  I've explained my position on no knocks, and this shooting, in great detail.  All I got in response was "nuh uh."  Do you have any idea how many no knock warrants are served every single day in this country?  I guarantee you it's in the hundreds, at least.  How many of them go south like this one?  If you want to knock a practice, at least let's be honest about it.  This kind of thing happens less than .01% of the time, if not less.  So please explain how the tactic is inherently flawed.  Something with such a high success rate does not appear to be a flawed policy.  

I do apologize, as I stated in my edit, if the response was stronger than you'd prefer.  Unfortunately, I have to explain things like this on a near daily basis to people who decided before I even started talking that I was wrong.  So you will forgive me if some of that frustration bleeds over into here.

[treee]

(02-10-2022, 08:13 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dude, I asked you for alternatives.  You didn't provide any.  I've explained my position on no knocks, and this shooting, in great detail.  All I got in response was "nuh uh."  Do you have any idea how many no knock warrants are served every single day in this country?  I guarantee you it's in the hundreds, at least.  How many of them go south like this one?  If you want to knock a practice, at least let's be honest about it.  This kind of thing happens less than .01% of the time, if not less.  So please explain how the tactic is inherently flawed.  Something with such a high success rate does not appear to be a flawed policy.  

I do apologize, as I stated in my edit, if the response was stronger than you'd prefer.  Unfortunately, I have to explain things like this on a near daily basis to people who decided before I even started talking that I was wrong.  So you will forgive me if some of that frustration bleeds over into here.

Alright I'll take your post at face value and shelve my "societal cost" argument for now, and ask how no knock warrants are less dangerous than setting a perimeter and compelling the target to surrender? I understand that this increases the risk to bystanders by some amount but clearly so does no knocks (the 0.01 percent by your estimation). So I'd genuinely like to hear your argument vs the two possibilities.

Edit: Also, is tech like thermal cameras used? Seems like it could hypothetically give a level of tactical superiority that would decrease how quickly the decision to shoot would need to be made.

2nd edit: Just looked it up and it looks like thermal cameras aren't really an option for seeing though walls. My thinking was that we're not being innovative enough and that's the first thing that came to mind.