When criminals are seen as heroes.

[fredtoast]

There has always been a fine line between criminals and heroes.

Robin Hood was seen as a hero when the government was taking too much money.

The rebels who started the Revolutionary War were "criminals" who became "patriots" when their side won. The rebels who started the Civil War (yes, they started it) were guilty of treason because their side lost.

Workers who first stood up to the industrial giants and fought and died for the rights of the working man were often portrayed as both criminals and heroes.

During the Great Depression bank robbers and gangsters were seen as heroes because the banks and oppresive government (prohibition) were seen as the bad guys.

Rap music had lots of connections to glorification of criminal behavior.

Moonshiners have made a comeback. They are often portrayed as popular rebels.

George Zimmerman.............




So, with all of this being said I was surprised that there was not more of an outpouring of support for the Bundy occupation in Oregon. I have heard so much vitriol on TV, radio, and even here about how evil the government is and how all the good people are having their rights stolen that I was sure there would be people just itching for a chance to stand up to Uncle Sam. But it never happened.

I was also afraid that the national media would all make it such a huge thing that they would have an entire panel talk about it every day even when nothing was happening. But they were so obsessed with the election BS that they didn't give it much attention at all. So I think that helped a lot. There are only 4 people still holed up there. I am hoping they all end up alive. But if they don't do you think they could become martyrs? Would they become heroes to a lot of people? To me they really do not seem to have that broad of an appeal even among the community of government haters.

Thoughts?

[Au165]

I think to most these guys come across as more nuts than martyrs.

[fredtoast]

(02-09-2016, 12:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think to most these guys come across as more nuts than martyrs.

But I have seen people who seemed to be nuts get a lot of people to follow them.  Sometimes there are huge groiups of people just looking for  chance to jump into action.  I really thought that there would be a lot of people show up who did not care that much about the specific land use issue but just hated the government in general.

I am glad I was wrong.  They are not as trigger happy as I thought they might be.

[BmorePat87]

There are a number who support their terrorism. No one that I have seen here, but there are plenty of blogs and facebook groups out there.

[fredtoast]

(02-09-2016, 01:09 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There are a number who support their terrorism. No one that I have seen here, but there are plenty of blogs and facebook groups out there.

I know.  I have heard them talk.  That is why I thought their would be more people actually going there to support them.

[BengalHawk62]

Like Jesse James and Billy the Kid and the Earps and Bonnie and Clyde?

[Rotobeast]

(02-09-2016, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I know.  I have heard them talk.  That is why I thought their would be more people actually going there to support them.

It's too cold for all the tough guys and they don't have winter camo.

[*Nately120*]

The first time Bundy was in the news a few years ago Fox News showed him riding a horse to and fro whilst waving the American flag, so he was getting a lot of "Hero standing up to corrupt government tyranny" initially.

[fredtoast]

(02-09-2016, 03:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The first time Bundy was in the news a few years ago Fox News showed him riding a horse to and fro whilst waving the American flag, so he was getting a lot of "Hero standing up to corrupt government tyranny" initially.

And I know he hit a little snag with some racist comments.  That is when a few conservatives backed off from their support.

[Mike M (the other one)]

There was stuff done, and people out protesting about LaVoy's murder. It is just not showing up in the mainstream media.

Militia in Columbus went to the federal building and conducted a burial service for him and sent the flag to the family.
http://thefifthcolumnnews.com/2016/02/ohios-response-to-lavoys-death-in-burns-oregon/

Many other Militia's are urging their members to not go and join up in the refuge, because the FBI is arresting and charging anyone that shows up.

http://www.pacificpatriotsnetwork.com/press_release_2016-01-26.php

The Oath Keepers are also urging their people to stay away, as you'll only end up in the sling.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/nation-and-world/demonstrators-around-the-west-protest-fbi-presence-oregon-town

I'm curious as to what happened with these guys that were trying to negotiate a peaceful solution with the FBI and the Bundy's.
http://sitsshow.blogspot.com/2016/01/idaho-militia-begins-negotiation-with.html

[*michaelsean*]

It seemed to me that they went searching for an excuse to do what they wanted to do. Weren't the Hammonds(?) going to be released and said they wanted no part of it? I don't really think anyone ever got a clear idea of the occupier's purpose. And add to that the leader was the son of a guy who people supported until he turned out to be a nut job. And of course once you say "God told me", then you lose most people.

[fredtoast]

(02-10-2016, 11:05 AM)michaelsean Wrote: It seemed to me that they went searching for an excuse to do what they wanted to do.  Weren't the Hammonds(?) going to be released and said they wanted no part of it?  I don't really think anyone ever got a clear idea of the occupier's purpose.  And add to that the leader was the son of a guy who people supported until he turned out to be a nut job.  And of course once you say "God told me", then you lose most people.

there was a groundswell of popular support across the country for the Hammonds.  They were the poster children for the anti-government movement.  At first i think the Hammonds appreciated the support.  There were lots of legal action taken on behalf of the Hammonds, but none of it was valid.  But by the time Bundy came to town and started making demands (weeks before the occupation) the Hammonds had made it clear that Bundy did not speak on their behalf.  

The Bundy's demands went beyond the release of the Hammonds.  It also involved the federal government giving large amounts of property back to the states or even make them open to all individuals. 

The Federal government controls massive amounts of land.  In the western 11 states the Fed controls 47% of the land. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/06/upshot/why-the-government-owns-so-much-land-in-the-west.html?_r=0  But this is not a big issue because most of the government control ius in the least populated areas.  East of the Mississippi the Fed only controls 4% of the land, but in some states like Utah and Nevada the Fed controls more than half of the land.

It may be a good idea for the rest of the country to pay more attention to the value of these federal assets and the money generated from rights to minerals, water, timber, and surface use (grazing, recreations, etc) related to these vast properties. Once the delivery infrastructure is in place I believe isolated federal property will be prime locations for large scale solar and wind energy production.  But I don't want groups like the Bundy's shaping this debate. 

[Vlad]

(02-09-2016, 12:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There has always been a fine line between criminals and heroes.

Robin Hood was seen as a hero when the government was taking too much money.

The rebels who started the Revolutionary War were "criminals" who became "patriots" when their side won.  The rebels who started the Civil War (yes, they started it) were guilty of treason because their side lost.

Workers who first stood up to the industrial giants and fought and died for the rights of the working man were often portrayed as both criminals and heroes.  

During the Great Depression bank robbers and gangsters were seen as heroes because the banks and oppresive government (prohibition) were seen as the bad guys.

Rap music had lots of connections to glorification of criminal behavior.  

Moonshiners have made a comeback.  They are often portrayed as popular rebels.

George Zimmerman.............




So, with all of this being said I was surprised that there was not more of an outpouring of support for the Bundy occupation in Oregon.  I have heard so much vitriol on TV, radio, and even here about how evil the government is and how all the good people are having their rights stolen that I was sure there would be people just itching for a chance to stand up to Uncle Sam.  But it never happened.

I was also afraid that the national media would all make it such a huge thing that they would have an entire panel talk about it every day even when nothing was happening.  But they were so obsessed with the election BS that they didn't give it much attention at all.  So I think that helped a lot.  There are only 4 people still holed up there.  I am hoping they all end up alive.  But if they don't do you think they could become martyrs?  Would they become heroes to a lot of people?  To me they really do not seem to have that broad of an appeal even among the community of government haters.

Thoughts?

And don't forget a good portion of the public siding with a known thug like Michael Brown over a good cop.

You've partially answered your own question. This is not being covered by lamestream media in fear of making these guys into heroes. You gotta go to the alternative news sources. I don't buy into your presidential election coverage baloney.
Alternative news sources wouldn't exist if the mainstream media, the guardians of the Democrat party, simply reported the news rather than try and sway public opinion and reporting only what they want you to hear.

[*Nately120*]

Don't EVEN get me started on this guy!