When do you become a human being?

[Bengalzona]

When does someone graduate from being a sperm and an egg to a human being? At conception? At birth? Somewhere in between?

I'd like your opinions. And, if you wish to share, what guides your opinions.

Special Note: This can be a very contentious topic. I'm not looking to open a debate in this thread. I am just really interested in everyone expressing their opinion. Therefore, I ask that you not express your opinion on someone elses' opinion. Rather, just limit to expressing your opinion to the thread topic. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

[*michaelsean*]

I did at conception but I’m willing to consider brain waves.

[XenoMorph]

conception your nothing more than a cell multiplying... That's on par with a virus.

Really not until you have that first breath of air are you a living being. Until then your just leaching off the host

[*bfine32*]

It's kind of a semantics debate; as Dictionairy. com states:

any individual of the genus *****, especially a member of the species ***** sapiens.

So at conception you are from the genus ***** but are you an individual?

If pressed I would assert one becomes a human being once the umbilical cord is cut. Prior to that; it's a child.

[Bengalzona]

I feel it is somewhere between conception and birth. If a baby is born premature, it still has the potential to grow into a healthy adult. That's sort of my simple logic. But it is hard for me to differentiate the lump of cells that is the fertilized egg from the lump of sperm cells and the egg cell they came from.

[GMDino]

(07-30-2018, 06:12 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I feel it is somewhere between conception and birth. If a baby is born premature, it still has the potential to grow into a healthy adult. That's sort of my simple logic. But it is hard for me to differentiate the lump of cells that is the fertilized egg from the lump of sperm cells and the egg cell they came from.

As the father of two preemies I can say I agree that once the child had the ability to be kept alive outside the womb, and they are outside the womb, they are human.

Not to say they are not a living thing in the womb at some point.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(07-30-2018, 05:49 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: When does someone graduate from being a sperm and an egg to a human being? At conception? At birth? Somewhere in between?

I'd like your opinions. And, if you wish to share, what guides your opinions.

Special Note: This can be a very contentious topic. I'm not looking to open a debate in this thread. I am just really interested in everyone expressing their opinion. Therefore, I ask that you not express your opinion on someone elses' opinion. Rather, just limit to expressing your opinion to the thread topic. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

I'm torn on this subject. I guess you're asking for personal reasons (correct me if I'm wrong)?  I've stated before that my ex-wife said she would've had an abortion if she had gotten pregnant because "she didn't think she would be a good mom". And I supported her right to choose. Then we had our son, he's   17yo old now.  However I do realize why people wouldn''t
 choose that option.  I still have firm  belief that the decision should be made between mothers and doctors.

[jj22]

A good question. You have to be careful with how you answer (or leery of the governments answer). If it was up to some conservatives, women would be imprisoned for involuntary manslaughter for having a miscarriage at 1 months pregnant given they believe life begins at conception.

That's why establishing this is important to the pro life/pro choice debate.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-31-2018, 09:53 AM)jj22 Wrote: A good question. You have to be careful with how you answer (or leery of the governments answer). If it was up to some conservatives, women would be imprisoned for involuntary manslaughter for having a miscarriage at 1 months pregnant given they believe life begins at conception.

That's why establishing this is important to the pro life/pro choice debate.

I’ve not heard from those conservatives. Are they a large group?

[jj22]

Yes, within the GOP if you consider this group who also don't believe in birth control for these reasons large.

Not majority of Americans. But Americans have been overwhelmingly pro choice, yet that hasn't stopped Conservatives from pushing a pro life agenda.

It's an extremely important classification due to the implications it will cause for Women responsible for these lives.

Of course these debates are determined by men who will never suffer any consequences for the outcome of the debates. Regardless of any change of laws. But that's another subject.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-31-2018, 10:06 AM)jj22 Wrote: Yes within the GOP if you consider this group who don't believe in birth control for these reasons large.

Not majority of Americans. But Americans have been overwhelmingly pro choice, yet that hasn't stopped Conservatives from pushing a pro life agenda.

The people who don’t believe in birth control (generally Catholics) think a miscarriage is manslaughter? I’m missing the connection.

[jj22]

Yes they believe the death of the baby is Murder.

When it comes to murder, by law, you can be charged with Murder or Involuntary Manslaughter. Dependent on the circumstances behind the death you are responsible for.

That's why this debate is so important and why legal scholars have always been hesitant with establishing an answer. The repercussions for the women are significant dependent on it.

You have to remember these people don't even agree with allowing rape victims to get a morning after pill.

They are very extreme.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-31-2018, 10:12 AM)jj22 Wrote: Yes they believe the death of the baby is Murder.

When it comes to murder, by law, you can be charged with Murder or Involuntary Manslaughter. Dependent on the circumstances behind the death you are responsible for.

Ok what does that have to do with birth control and who are these people that believe a miscarriage is murder? Are you talking about when someone else is charged when they cause a miscarriage? Like throwing a woman down the stairs?

[jj22]

No, I'm talking about Women being responsible for a life at conception. And why legal scholars are hesitant to answer the question the OP asked.

There are significant repercussions for women depending on the answer.

Being imprisoned for the "murder" of a "baby" is one of them.

[GMDino]

(07-31-2018, 10:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The people who don’t believe in birth control (generally Catholics) think a miscarriage is manslaughter?  I’m missing the connection.

This is an old debate...and one that will inevitably get this thread off the rails...but a small group wants/wanted every miscarriage investigated to make sure the female did not "do something" to cause it.  In which case she would be charged with something.  Ostensibly it was meant to cover drug use while pregnant...but the fear was it would force a woman who had a miscarriage the added stress and emotional toll of being investigated by the police.

From the link:

Quote:...in 2014, Lynn M. Paltrow and Jeanne Flavin claimed to have identified over 380 cases where women faced criminal charges for miscarrying –with the charges ranging from "attempted fetal homicide" for falling down the stairs to "second-degree murder" for a spontaneous miscarriage in the first trimester.

Sometimes the charges are more for how a body was disposed of rather than the miscarriage itself.

[jj22]

I thought this was pretty much understood as to why this classification of when life begins is so important to the pro life/pro choice debate.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree or have an opinion on the answer, but the answer has major consequences for women legally.

[Benton]

(07-31-2018, 10:03 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I’ve not heard from those conservatives. Are they a large group?

There have been some court cases in Mississippi where women have been charged, mostly due to bad behavior while pregnancy. Idaho was trying to criminalize it, and had a gubernatorial candidate who indicated he was in favor of the death penalty for those receiving abortions. I don't remember the party, but he later said it was the media's fault he agreed with the penalty, so I assumed he was Republican. 

[Benton]

To the OP:
I think it differs in every case. I don't think you can set a date and say "all clusters of cells staying together at this point will be a real human!" Some babies are born a couple weeks early and don't make it; some are born months early and battle through.

My opinion on the subject doesn't matter a whole lot. I don't like it, but I'm not a woman and, more importantly, not a doctor. I think we have a lot of well intended folks on both sides who have good arguments but woefully few medical degrees. I don't know why the belief of a carpet layer from Pittsburgh should have as much bearing on the viability of an embryo as a medical doctor from Denver.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-31-2018, 10:17 AM)GMDino Wrote: This is an old debate...and one that will inevitably get this thread off the rails...but a small group wants/wanted every miscarriage investigated to make sure the female did not "do something" to cause it.  In which case she would be charged with something.  Ostensibly it was meant to cover drug use while pregnant...but the fear was it would force a woman who had a miscarriage the added stress and emotional toll of being investigated by the police.

From the link:




Sometimes the charges are more for how a body was disposed of rather than the miscarriage itself.

Those were some pretty extreme cases. I don’t see it becoming a regular thing with miscarriages which I would be wholeheartedly against. Just out of curiosity why were trans people dropped in there from time to time.

[Bengalzona]

(07-31-2018, 09:53 AM)jj22 Wrote: A good question. You have to be careful with how you answer (or leery of the governments answer). If it was up to some conservatives, women would be imprisoned for involuntary manslaughter for having a miscarriage at 1 months pregnant given they believe life begins at conception.

That's why establishing this is important to the pro life/pro choice debate.

The question is, "What do you think?", not what others think. Certainly you have your own opinion.