When the Government aid is delayed

[*PhilHos*]

(11-08-2015, 05:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And where did Jesus say specifically that we could not set up government programs to help the poor?  If that is the most efficient way for us to take care of the poor do you think Jesus would tell us that we are not allowed to do that?

Plus the same thing could be said by churches who refuse to help the poor.  they could say that Jesus never said to set up church programs to help the poor, but only commanded the individual to do it.

This entire line of logic is nothing but a cop out to make Christians feel better about not doing what they were ordered to do by Jesus.  If Christians did what Jesus told them to do then these people would not need help from the government.

3 things: 1) I'm in complete agreement that churches SHOULD be helping the poor 2) It's already proven that charitable organizations are FAR more effecient with their money and better able and more capable of helping the poor than the government 3) My main point was to counter the ridiculous "accusations" of the meme that was posted.

[fredtoast]

(11-08-2015, 10:36 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  2) It's already proven that charitable organizations are FAR more effecient with their money and better able and more capable of helping the poor than the government

This is not true at all.  Many private "charities" are scams that return only a very small percentage of funds collected to the needy.

But even if private charities were more efficient it has been proven that they can not meet the demand.  People simply do not give enough voluntarily to help all the people in need.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-08-2015, 10:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is not true at all.  Many private "charities" are scams that return only a very small percentage of funds collected to the needy.

But even if private charities were more efficient it has been proven that they can not meet the demand.  People simply do not give enough voluntarily to help all the people in need.

Many charities are indeed scams, but those that are not are far more capable of meeting needs than the government. People do not give enough voluntarily because the government takes WAY more than it should. Glad we agree on that.

[fredtoast]

(11-08-2015, 10:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: People do not give enough voluntarily because the government takes WAY more than it should. Glad we agree on that.

We do not agree at all.

If people gave plenty then the government would never have had to get involved.

Just look at the way so many people here demonize the disadvantaged.  there ois no way in hell they are oing to give more money even if their taxes are reduced.  they believe that the ONLY reason people are poor in America is that they are lazy.

Some people here have actually argued that there are actually millions of good jobs sitting empty right now and all we have to do is eliminate government benefits and unemployment will disappear.  they honestly believe that millions of jobs will be created out of thin air if we just cut off benefits to the poor.

[*Nately120*]

(11-08-2015, 10:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Many charities are indeed scams, but those that are not are far more capable of meeting needs than the government. People do not give enough voluntarily because the government takes WAY more than it should. Glad we agree on that.

Wait, so you're telling me if the government stops taking my money and giving it to lazy, entitled complainers against my will I'm going to start doing it voluntarily?  Call me skeptical, on that one.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 12:40 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Wait, so you're telling me if the government stops taking my money and giving it to lazy, entitled complainers against my will I'm going to start doing it voluntarily?  Call me skeptical, on that one.

Yep.  Charity is actually a bad thing.  All it does is "enslave" the people who receive it.

I just don't think there are that many people who are so cruel that they would give money to the poor and enslave them.

[*Nately120*]

(11-09-2015, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yep.  Charity is actually a bad thing.  All it does is "enslave" the people who receive it.

I just don't think there are that many people who are so cruel that they would give money to the poor and enslave them.

I'm exaggerating a bit, but I think our society has demonized the poor to such an extent that expecting people to watch that video and give those people money of their own accord if the government stopped forcing it is a bit off-base.

If I'm convinced people on welfare are lazy, choosing not to work, and spending my money on steak and lobster why on earth would I give them anything?  They'll grab a shovel and head for the nearest mine before they starve to death, right?

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yep.  Charity is actually a bad thing.  All it does is "enslave" the people who receive it.

I just don't think there are that many people who are so cruel that they would give money to the poor and enslave them.

Maybe Zo can explain it to you Massa Fred

https://youtu.be/9kry_VfFSh4

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 01:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Maybe Zo can explain it to you Massa Fred

https://youtu.be/9kry_VfFSh4

Zo is telling me that all black people are stupid.  Zo is clearly a black person.  Based on his logic I should not listen to him because he is stupid, right?

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 02:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Zo is telling me that all black people are stupid.  Zo is clearly a black person.  Based on his logic I should not listen to him because he is stupid, right?

I suppose you should just offer him free stuff in hopes that he complies.

But as to your query: Zo is not stupid; nor did he say all black people are. He merely stated many have been duped by the liberal white man. He looks to empower them, while others look to make them more dependent.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:20 AM)bfine32 Wrote: But as to your query: Zo is not stupid; nor did he say all black people are. He merely stated many have been duped by the liberal white man. He looks to empower them, while others look to make them more dependent.

I think you need to listen to him again.  He is clearly saying that black people are stupid and have been duped by the smart white people.

And he is black.

So based on his own logic he is stupid.

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 02:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you need to listen to him again.  He is clearly saying that black people are stupid and have been duped by the smart white people.

And he is black.

So based on his own logic he is stupid.

Funny that you replaced liberal with smart, but you guys have always had an inflated view of yourselves,

I have listened to Zo plenty and unlike you, he is outraged that the liberal white man continues to try to enslave the blacks.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:36 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I have listened to Zo plenty and unlike you, he is outraged that the liberal white man continues to try to enslave the blacks.

He is wrong.

Making poor people suffer does not create more jobs in our economy.  That is ridiculous logic.  Having a black person say it does not give it any more validity.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:36 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Funny that you replaced liberal with smart, but you guys have always had an inflated view of yourselves,

Zo is the one who says the black people were stupid enough to be duped, not me.

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 09:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Zo is the one who says the black people were stupid enough to be duped, not me.

I watched the video again and nowhere did he call black people stupid. He spoke directly to them and tried to explain that they are being manipulated by a political party that has always had control over them. The video in the OP is a perfect example.

He doesn't think black people are stupid (those are your words), he thinks they need to "wake up" and break away from the institutional slavery that is still going on. But you are doing your job as the middle-aged white liberal by telling him he is wrong.

[Benton]

(11-08-2015, 10:36 PM)PhilHos Wrote:   2) It's already proven that charitable organizations are FAR more effecient with their money and better able and more capable of helping the poor than the government 

http://www.tampabay.com/topics/specials/worst-charities1.page

Quote:Every year, Kids Wish Network raises millions of dollars in donations in the name of dying children and their families.

Every year, it spends less than 3 cents on the dollar helping kids.


...

The 50 worst charities in America devote less than 4 percent of donations raised to direct cash aid. Some charities give even less. Over a decade, one diabetes charity raised nearly $14 million and gave about $10,000 to patients. Six spent nothing at all on direct cash aid.

http://charity.lovetoknow.com/What_Percentage_of_Donations_Go_to_Charity

Quote:Charities that Spend 30% or More on Overhead

If you care deeply that the bulk of your money goes to benefit the cause directly, these are charities you may want to investigate further before making your donation. The following charities spend at least 30 cents or more for every donated dollar on things like overhead, administrative costs, and fundraising.

• George Bush Presidential Library Foundation
• Alzheimer's Foundation of America
• The Cable Center
• Jewish Guild for the Blind
• American Printing House for the Blind
  

...

Charities with Lots of Overhead

To be considered a charity that spends its money well, at least 66.6% of all donations should go directly towards programs that support the charity's mission. While these charities fall well within this guideline, they do tend to accrue more overhead and administrative expenses than some other charities. The following popular charities spend 20 to 30 cents on the donated dollar for overhead and administrative expenses.

• The Nature Conservancy
• World Wildlife Federation
• CARE
• Oxfam America
• Natural Resources Defense Council
  

Versus....
http://www.cbpp.org/research/policy-basics-where-do-our-federal-tax-dollars-go

Quote: Four health insurance programs — Medicare, Medicaid, the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP), and Affordable Care Act marketplace subsidies — together accounted for 24 percent of the budget in 2014, or $836 billion.


...


About 11 percent of the federal budget in 2014, or $370 billion, supported programs that provide aid (other than health insurance or Social Security benefits) to individuals and families facing hardship. 

[*michaelsean*]

(11-08-2015, 06:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Jesus preached taking care of the poor.  he never said anything about prohibiting the government from helping them  I have no doubt that if he existed he would rather have a government program set up for them than to just let them suffer. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE CHRISTIANS THAT HE TOLD TO TAKE CARE OF THEM HAVE REFUSED TO DO IT.

Funny that I didn't hear many Christians say that Jesus would not want to use the government to stop abortion or same sex marraige?

typical two-faced logic.

No Jesus would not object to government programs, however he would object to people thinking their duty is complete.  He was always speaking to the individual.  

[Mike M (the other one)]

(11-08-2015, 10:52 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Many charities are indeed scams, but those that are not are far more capable of meeting needs than the government. People do not give enough voluntarily because the government takes WAY more than it should. Glad we agree on that.

Easy fix, in order to qualify as a Charity, you need to spend xx out of every dollar on charitable causes. Failure to do so, will get your tax exemption status revoked and you will be taxed heavily and back taxed as well.

(11-08-2015, 11:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We do not agree at all.

If people gave plenty then the government would never have had to get involved.

Just look at the way so many people here demonize the disadvantaged.  there ois no way in hell they are oing to give more money even if their taxes are reduced.  they believe that the ONLY reason people are poor in America is that they are lazy.

Some people here have actually argued that there are actually millions of good jobs sitting empty right now and all we have to do is eliminate government benefits and unemployment will disappear.  they honestly believe that millions of jobs will be created out of thin air if we just cut off benefits to the poor.

Why are you making this a black vs white thing? If so, then let's add these guys to the mix: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/11/27/native-americans-left-behind-in-the-economic-recovery

It has nothing to do with color, and everything to do with Economic status. You've said it yourself (or maybe not you) that children of parents of a certain economic status tend to stay in the same group as their parents economic status.

So how do you try to even up the bridge between the poor and the wealthy? Personally, I'd start with education and also cut back on the number of work visas in specialized fields (that are allowed on an annual basis) in order to drive up the demand for those jobs.

I know a few of you keep saying that we don't have the money to pay for that, but we do, just not everyone is going to like where it comes from. Didn't the politicians just recently find another way to squeeze money from Wall Street to that is supposed to help pay for roads? The money is there, we just need to allocate it correctly. Think, 43 million spent on creating a gas station in another country, that money would've put how many poor people thru a 4 year degree at a not so expensive college?

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:58 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why are you making this a black vs white thing? If so, then let's add these guys to the mix: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2014/11/27/native-americans-left-behind-in-the-economic-recovery

It has nothing to do with color, and everything to do with Economic status.

Uh, what?

I think you quoted me by mistake.  There is not one mention of race in my quote.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 11:21 AM)bfine32 Wrote: He doesn't think black people are stupid (those are your words), he thinks they need to "wake up"

Asleep?  Stupid?  What's the difference?  He is still saying that black people don't know what is going on around them.  And since he is black, based on his logic I should not listen to him because he does not know what is going on around him.


Plus he is still 100% wrong.  Making poor people suffer more will not create more jobs in our economy.  That is a lie that the wealthy try to use to demonize the poor and justify reducing their benefits.