(07-09-2023, 10:08 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Why does one have to conclude that God wanted them to eat from the Tree of Knowledge simply because it was there?
So then he's not omnipotent or omniscient.
Quote:Yes, there are things that God gets directly involved in, however, that doesn't mean God is directly involved in everything.
So the marketing ploy of 'God is everywhere and in everything' is bunk, or he's not omnipotent or omniscient.
Quote:No, I don't think it would. This assumes that if God revealed himself to the world then everyone would just listen and follow him.
You'd be surprised at how many atheists I personally know who would immediately start to worship with even the smallest grain of proof that a God exists.
Our father, who art in Hell
Unhallowed, be thy name
Cursed be thy sons and daughters
Of our nemesis who are to blame
Thy kingdom come, Nema
(07-10-2023, 12:52 AM)pally Wrote: The more I read this thread the more obvious things become. People have to twist themselves into pretzels trying to explain religion and the Bible to others.
I know, I know it’s all supposed to be faith but seriously guys listening to all these convoluted explanations makes one wonder about Gods sanity let alone his very existence
God allows evil to be done in his name. He allows innocent children to be grievously harmed in his name. He allows this world to go from war to war, often in His name, killing noncombatant. And we are then told He does this in love. People are just supposed to accept all of this on some vague promise of a better eternity yet the next generation comes along and it’s wash, rinse, and repeat.
Seems to me that God and his followers do more harm than good in this world
Free choice. So mankind does all these evil things you mention and then blames God? Sounds legit.
(07-10-2023, 06:38 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: So then he's not omnipotent or omniscient.
What does omniscience and omnipotence have to do with God's intentions? Not stopping them from eating from the Tree is not the same as being unable to stop them from eating from the Tree. Just as knowing they would eat from the Tree is not the same as wanting them to eat from the Tree.
Quote:So the marketing ploy of 'God is everywhere and in everything' is bunk, or he's not omnipotent or omniscient.
God is "everywhere" doesn't have to mean he's controlling literally everything that happens. Just because you're a bystander doesn't mean you're directly involved.
Quote:You'd be surprised at how many atheists I personally know who would immediately start to worship with even the smallest grain of proof that a God exists.
Perhaps.
But the point stands that if God were to reveal himself it doesn't automatically mean everyone would follow him or that even if they did that they would be able to sustain their worship of him.
(07-09-2023, 09:28 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Well, I think there needs to be context for why you created the aircraft with a flaw in the first place.
God created us with free will, which is itself a flaw because free will suggests that we can do whatever we want. If we can do whatever we want then we can act in ways that are evil. But God did not create us to commit evil acts, he simply gave us the choice to. He gave us free will to be able to choose what we want, but in a limited sense of course.
I would still say God is responsible for creating us with free will, but I wouldn't say he's responsible for all the indivudal choices we make out of that free will. That's all on us because we chose to do it. Now, if God created us with free will and then literally controlled us like puppets at points in our lives and made us act out evil things that we didn't freely choose to do, I would say God is responsible for all of our evil acts. But that's not what's happening.
I think we come back to using your analogy here - if I know for a fact that a person is planning on committing a mass shooting and I provide them with the weapon to do so, fully knowing they will use that weapon to kill people, then I am culpable in some manner for that shooting. There would be an extra moral penalty if the people that were killed were those that I loved. When we speak about god's design and his omniscience & omnipotence, he knew that by giving us free will we would sin. We would have the capability for committing terrible acts and cause suffering. His beloved creations would cause suffering amongst themselves, and he would have to assign a large portion of his beloved creations to suffering for eternity because by that same free will, there would be those who choose to not believe in him.
This is a strange decision to make for a benevolent, all-loving god. Why is free will designed in this way? Why does free will have an implicit inclusion of sin? We are talking about the creator of the universe - all universal laws would have been created by him. Why not create free will, or life, without the ability to commit terrible acts? Again, he knew everything that was to come of his design choices, so why would he continue with them despite having the ability to change it?
Quote:In regards to salvation...
God didn't have to offer us that. At all. He could have created a world where there's just a bunch of suffering and then you die. But I believe he offered us an alternative out of love. I know people will have gripes in the way that God is deciding to offer it to us, but at the end of the day I would argue that the reasons for not taking that offer seems a bit quesitonable.
For those who have a disdain for God, they want to have the free will to do what they want right? They want to be able to do all the "sinful" things they want to do, but why? Obviously because that's what's "fun" that's what's "interesting" that's what's "enjoyable", but that's all quite relative and I'd even argue a bit trivial in comparison to everlasting life in which you wouldn't get to act out those sinful desires but still have free will in a limited sense. This is because at the root of it all, we all really want peace. Eternal happiness. It's what we strive for as human beings. It's why we go to work everyday to make ends meet. It's why we have trelationships with other human beings. It's why we follow the law. It's why we eat and drink and sleep. It's why we do the majority of the things we do in life, because we want these things to lead to a happy/satisfying/peaceful outcome. Yet none of it lasts eternally.
Here comes God, offering us eternal salvation but we don't want that because we have less choice than we had before?
Sure, he didn't have to offer us salvation at all. However, he also didn't have to offer the current version of free will. He could have offered us anything. He could have replaced gravity with something else. He is all-powerful and there is no limit to what he could have done, but he still designed us imperfectly unless, by his eyes, we are perfect. If we are a perfect creation, then his design would have to be intentional, for better or for worse. He would have the foreknowledge of all that was to come and the eternal fates of many of his creations, and he would have to approve of those outcomes. This would change the idea of a "loving god" to one that is similar to a person being proud of their ant colony and the ecosystem they designed rather than a creator who loves all of his creations individually and wants to protect them and keep them safe/happy. One that is interested in the simulation of life rather than the life itself.
(07-10-2023, 10:58 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: 99% of earth beings are eaten alive by their predator, it's not free will, it's pure cruelty. The world in itself is utterly violent.
Free will is a myth. Kids who got shot in schools or have terrible parents have no free will.
I can agree with some of this, but free will is a gift. I often have to ask myself, is this what God wanted? Yet, that doesn't make me a non-believer. I try to carry my relationship with God the way I did with my own father, and the way I did with my children. And although there were many things me or my children didn't understand why our fathers did what they did, I accepted them because I knew my best interest was at heart. Now, before you start rampaging that kids dying and all the other brutalities in life are in my best interest, it's not. But I do believe that one day, all things will be revealed to me and everything will have an explanation. I am 100% confident that God didn't want any children or any innocent person to die.
I question God often. I question mankind often. I believe there is a struggle beyond what I am able to understand. I can't explain most of these things, and I don't feel I'm chosen to do so. Many times I feel I could/would do more harm trying. I do know that I believe. What I don't understand, is the hatred towards believers. So many people are accepting of many types of people. But let someone say God Bless You or Praise be to God, and the hate begins. Doesn't make sense to me. And this hate comes from those who claim we should accept people and their differences.
(07-10-2023, 09:21 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: What does omniscience and omnipotence have to do with God's intentions? Not stopping them from eating from the Tree is not the same as being unable to stop them from eating from the Tree. Just as knowing they would eat from the Tree is not the same as wanting them to eat from the Tree.
So if God's intent was to not have them eat the fruit, why have it near them? Or why allow the serpent to poison Eve's mind? Or why allow Eve to thus poison Adam's mind? Why even have the tree? Unless his intent was to create Man in order to have Man suffer.
Quote:God is "everywhere" doesn't have to mean he's controlling literally everything that happens. Just because you're a bystander doesn't mean you're directly involved.
So he wants worshipped for doing **** all? I mean at least Apollo pulled the Sun across the sky. God apparently said "this is a fun ant farm, I can't wait for it to burn itself down" and started playing XBox.
Quote:Perhaps.
But the point stands that if God were to reveal himself it doesn't automatically mean everyone would follow him or that even if they did that they would be able to sustain their worship of him.
So the alternative he provides is vague promises of salvation if you follow his (often contradicting) set of rules and worship without question, while also exercising free will with all of human's innate flaws?
Yeah, no. Those are the actions of a benevolent being.
Our father, who art in Hell
Unhallowed, be thy name
Cursed be thy sons and daughters
Of our nemesis who are to blame
Thy kingdom come, Nema
(07-10-2023, 11:32 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: I can agree with some of this, but free will is a gift. I often have to ask myself, is this what God wanted? Yet, that doesn't make me a non-believer. I try to carry my relationship with God the way I did with my own father, and the way I did with my children. And although there were many things me or my children didn't understand why our fathers did what they did, I accepted them because I knew my best interest was at heart. Now, before you start rampaging that kids dying and all the other brutalities in life are in my best interest, it's not. But I do believe that one day, all things will be revealed to me and everything will have an explanation. I am 100% confident that God didn't want any children or any innocent person to die.
I question God often. I question mankind often. I believe there is a struggle beyond what I am able to understand. I can't explain most of these things, and I don't feel I'm chosen to do so. Many times I feel I could/would do more harm trying. I do know that I believe. What I don't understand, is the hatred towards believers. So many people are accepting of many types of people. But let someone say God Bless You or Praise be to God, and the hate begins. Doesn't make sense to me. And this hate comes from those who claim we should accept people and their differences.
Because people don't get what's going on. Once you know, you understand.
Why would an entity able to create the universe would do it ? What question is it trying to resolve ?
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(07-10-2023, 10:58 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: 99% of earth beings are eaten alive by their predator, it's not free will, it's pure cruelty. The world in itself is utterly violent.
Free will is a myth. Kids who got shot in schools or have terrible parents have no free will.
I will never understand this mindset. If you say we have no free will then you are saying we all live our lives as slaves to preordained events. This is ludicrous and exhibits a desire to be free of responsibility for your own actions. Essentially it's the philosophical equivalent of being an angsty teen who hates everything because nothing matters.
I enjoyed Christopher Hitchens comment on free will.
(07-10-2023, 12:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I will never understand this mindset. If you say we have no free will then you are saying we all live our lives as slaves to preordained events. This is ludicrous and exhibits a desire to be free of responsibility for your own actions. Essentially it's the philosophical equivalent of being an angsty teen who hates everything because nothing matters.
I enjoyed Christopher Hitchens comment on free will.
I don't make the rules.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(07-09-2023, 02:46 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I find this part unsettling. We are supposed to worship a god who is omniscient and knew that his creations would sin and introduce unfathomable amounts of pain, suffering, and death, but he decided to create us nonetheless for his own glory. His own vanity, so to speak. This is something that I have trouble reconciling.
Hi KillerGoose,
I am not going to twist myself in a puzzle to give you an answer, because I just don't know. Many religious "folks"[Pastors, Priests, Rabii's, etc] will spew their own comments. But again, I won't state I know the answer when I don't.
What I do know is that you have to have Faith. I have Faith in God and his plans. I don't understand all his plans and in some cases I don't agree with some of his plans, but even as a small child, his parents know best for him, like don't put your hand on the stove. A small child will want to put his hand on a stove, but woe the child when he does and it is hot.
Just like I said I don't understand God's "knowing" man would sin, let me ask you a set of questions.
1. If you went into space whether you were Superman or realistically in a spaceship and you went straight any direction in this case west. Time, fuel, food are not an issue, you just went one direction west, do you go forever in eternity? Do you eventually hit a wall? Do you eventually circle back to Earth?
Which brings me to the next question.
2. Since you don't believe in God when was the beginning of time? I assume you will say the Big Bang Theory? That is an explanation for this Universe, but what about the other multitudes of Universes? What preceded the Big Bang Theory? Nothing?
Something produced by nothing from nothing would, logically, have had to create itself. But if it created itself, it would have had to exist prior to its own creation, which means it must both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way—an obvious contradiction and an utterly illogical conclusion. When the laws of logic are violated like this, reason and communication become meaningless.
In my humble opinion in the beginning there was always God.
Try to wrap around yourself and believe that. If not and you still believe in the Big Bang Theory, surely there was something before the Big Bang Theory and we do have multiple Universes[Multiverse]. See Marvel and DC[The Flash] movies for reference.
Try to explain #1 and #2 for me. I don't know, just like I don't know God's plans. For example, I don't know the end of time nor did Jesus. Jesus said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36; cf. Mark 13:32).
So when you ask a person, why did God do this or that know that you might not be getting the right answer.
(07-10-2023, 12:52 AM)pally Wrote: God allows evil to be done in his name. He allows innocent children to be grievously harmed in his name. He allows this world to go from war to war, often in His name, killing noncombatant. And we are then told He does this in love. People are just supposed to accept all of this on some vague promise of a better eternity yet the next generation comes along and it’s wash, rinse, and repeat.
Seems to me that God and his followers do more harm than good in this world
Well i have to ask, what's "good" exactly? And how is the alternative of salvation a better option?
(07-10-2023, 01:12 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Hi KillerGoose,
I am not going to twist myself in a puzzle to give you an answer, because I just don't know. Many religious "folks"[Pastors, Priests, Rabii's, etc] will spew their own comments. But again, I won't state I know the answer when I don't.
What I do know is that you have to have Faith. I have Faith in God and his plans. I don't understand all his plans and in some cases I don't agree with some of his plans, but even as a small child, his parents know best for him, like don't put your hand on the stove. A small child will want to put his hand on a stove, but woe the child when he does and it is hot.
Just like I said I don't understand God's "knowing" man would sin, let me ask you a set of questions.
1. If you went into space whether you were Superman or realistically in a spaceship and you went straight any direction in this case west. Time, fuel, food are not an issue, you just went one direction west, do you go forever in eternity? Do you eventually hit a wall? Do you eventually circle back to Earth?
Which brings me to the next question.
2. Since you don't believe in God when was the beginning of time? I assume you will say the Big Bang Theory? That is an explanation for this Universe, but what about the other multitudes of Universes? What preceded the Big Bang Theory? Nothing?
Something produced by nothing from nothing would, logically, have had to create itself. But if it created itself, it would have had to exist prior to its own creation, which means it must both exist and not exist at the same time and in the same way—an obvious contradiction and an utterly illogical conclusion. When the laws of logic are violated like this, reason and communication become meaningless.
In my humble opinion in the beginning there was always God.
Try to wrap around yourself and believe that. If not and you still believe in the Big Bang Theory, surely there was something before the Big Bang Theory and we do have multiple Universes[Multiverse]. See Marvel and DC[The Flash] movies for reference.
Try to explain #1 and #2 for me. I don't know, just like I don't know God's plans. For example, I don't know the end of time nor did Jesus. Jesus said, “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24:36; cf. Mark 13:32).
So when you ask a person, why did God do this or that know that you might not be getting the right answer.
I think these are great questions, and thanks for engaging in them. Just a note before I continue, I don't mean to be agitating with my questions. I know these conversations can be tense and I want to make sure that its known that my intention isn't to put you down for your beliefs or make you feel wrong. We just have opposing viewpoints, but these have also been genuine questions and not "gotchas" from my end.
I think the answer is "we don't know for sure" but it is very possible that you would continue going on for eternity, yes. The universe is expanding, and is expanding at faster than the speed of light. This doesn't violate our understanding of physics, either. Only physical objects are limited by light speed, but something like the universe is not. So, no matter how fast of a vehicle you make, you will never be able to travel faster than light or the universe itself. So, you will keep going for eternity. That is my understanding.
Time and space are interwoven - without space, there is no time. So, yes, the Big Bang would have been the beginning of time, or at least our timeline. The question that comes up often is "what was before" and of course, we don't know for sure. It is very possible that we will never know. One theory is that the universe may go in cycles of expansion and contraction. If this is true, then the universe would eventually stop expanding and begin contracting down to a singularity. At that point, it would explode again and start the process over. There are others but again, we have no idea. However, Stephen Hawking once made a comment on this very discussion that I found has sat with me over time. During a conversation of what preceded the Big Bang, Hawking replied "what is south of the South Pole?"
Well, the answer to that is "nothing". You can't go south from the south pole. You are at south. As I said earlier, time and space are interwoven. Without space, there is no time. The Big Bang theory asserts that before the universe, the entire universe was packed into a singularity that became so dense and hot, it exploded. We are able to see the remnants of that explosion in the cosmic background radiation. Anything that occurred before the Big Bang is simply undefined - time did not exist and we have no way of observing them. The universe was in a singularity, and it is possible that there was no beginning or creation of this singularity. Of course, it could also be that universes expand and contract. We don't know and may never know, but we do work to provide logical answers grounded in our understanding of physics. Using this method, we have been able to explain several previously unknown things about our universe. It has been effective, which is why we rely on it.
(07-10-2023, 12:54 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I will never understand this mindset. If you say we have no free will then you are saying we all live our lives as slaves to preordained events. This is ludicrous and exhibits a desire to be free of responsibility for your own actions. Essentially it's the philosophical equivalent of being an angsty teen who hates everything because nothing matters.
I enjoyed Christopher Hitchens comment on free will.
(07-10-2023, 01:36 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think these are great questions, and thanks for engaging in them. Just a note before I continue, I don't mean to be agitating with my questions. I know these conversations can be tense and I want to make sure that its known that my intention isn't to put you down for your beliefs or make you feel wrong. We just have opposing viewpoints, but these have also been genuine questions and not "gotchas" from my end.
I think the answer is "we don't know for sure" but it is very possible that you would continue going on for eternity, yes. The universe is expanding, and is expanding at faster than the speed of light. This doesn't violate our understanding of physics, either. Only physical objects are limited by light speed, but something like the universe is not. So, no matter how fast of a vehicle you make, you will never be able to travel faster than light or the universe itself. So, you will keep going for eternity. That is my understanding.
Time and space are interwoven - without space, there is no time. So, yes, the Big Bang would have been the beginning of time, or at least our timeline. The question that comes up often is "what was before" and of course, we don't know for sure. It is very possible that we will never know. One theory is that the universe may go in cycles of expansion and contraction. If this is true, then the universe would eventually stop expanding and begin contracting down to a singularity. At that point, it would explode again and start the process over. There are others but again, we have no idea. However, Stephen Hawking once made a comment on this very discussion that I found has sat with me over time. During a conversation of what preceded the Big Bang, Hawking replied "what is south of the South Pole?"
Well, the answer to that is "nothing". You can't go south from the south pole. You are at south. As I said earlier, time and space are interwoven. Without space, there is no time. The Big Bang theory asserts that before the universe, the entire universe was packed into a singularity that became so dense and hot, it exploded. We are able to see the remnants of that explosion in the cosmic background radiation. Anything that occurred before the Big Bang is simply undefined - time did not exist and we have no way of observing them. The universe was in a singularity, and it is possible that there was no beginning or creation of this singularity. Of course, it could also be that universes expand and contract. We don't know and may never know, but we do work to provide logical answers grounded in our understanding of physics. Using this method, we have been able to explain several previously unknown things about our universe. It has been effective, which is why we rely on it.
Hi KillerGoose,
Your conversation and answers are excellent. There are some members here if you don't agree with their opinions, they will run to the moderators to get you banned. That is why I don't like posting much in this so called "Political & Religion" forum.
The issue is even if I did not believe in God, I could never believe that the Big Bang Theory started every Universe out there, or that the Big Bang Theory was the start of time. To me that doesn't make sense, just like I think if you go in a straight line in space in one direction and you traveled the speed of light aka Superman. You will never hit a wall. Time precedes the Big Bang Theory. I understand these two concepts better than I can understand God's plan. Again, I don't why God does what he does. God knows all. Yes, God even knows how many hairs you have on your head. Circling back to the theme of this thread. I do believe one day that we will a New Earth, America. I hope to see you there.
(07-10-2023, 02:28 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Which concept of free will do you believe in?
I am a firm believer in human agency. We all make choices based on past learned experience, interpretation of current events and predicted future consequences. Some do one of those more than the other. We are a collection of learned experience, but we are not slaves to our past. Essentially, while our past and present inform our decisions we are not bound to them if they produce malignant, or even poor, results. We can learn and overcome them, even reject them entirely.
In short, adults are responsible for their decisions. Some are set up better to make advantageous decisions and some are not. But, especially in an age of readily available information, there is nothing stopping us from learning and growing, discarding what doesn't work and acquiring what does.
(07-10-2023, 12:52 AM)pally Wrote: The more I read this thread the more obvious things become. People have to twist themselves into pretzels trying to explain religion and the Bible to others.
I know, I know it’s all supposed to be faith but seriously guys listening to all these convoluted explanations makes one wonder about Gods sanity let alone his very existence
God allows evil to be done in his name. He allows innocent children to be grievously harmed in his name. He allows this world to go from war to war, often in His name, killing noncombatant. And we are then told He does this in love. People are just supposed to accept all of this on some vague promise of a better eternity yet the next generation comes along and it’s wash, rinse, and repeat.
Seems to me that God and his followers do more harm than good in this world
If God does indeed exist, I am very certain the versions of God derived by humans found in the Bibles, Old Testament, and the Quran for examples are way off.
If there is one thing we know from history through today in 2023, those in power can never fully be trusted with being fully honest and truthful. And those versions of God that have snowballed down through history started with those in power.
(07-10-2023, 03:14 PM)Millhouse Wrote: If God does indeed exist, I am very certain the versions of God derived by humans found in the Bibles, Old Testament, and the Quran for examples are way off.
If there is one thing we know from history through today in 2023, those in power can never fully be trusted with being fully honest and truthful. And those versions of God that have snowballed down through history started with those in power.
They didn't even know what there is in the sky. Can you imagine watching the sky as a total mystery ?
Some things aged like milk. Earth is not flat, it's not in the center of the universe, it wasn't created in 7 days, there are billions of galaxies ... So the human centered God is somehow obsolete.
I believe there is an intelligence that we can't understand, I don't believe in prophets.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(07-10-2023, 10:34 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think we come back to using your analogy here - if I know for a fact that a person is planning on committing a mass shooting and I provide them with the weapon to do so, fully knowing they will use that weapon to kill people, then I am culpable in some manner for that shooting. There would be an extra moral penalty if the people that were killed were those that I loved. When we speak about god's design and his omniscience & omnipotence, he knew that by giving us free will we would sin. We would have the capability for committing terrible acts and cause suffering. His beloved creations would cause suffering amongst themselves, and he would have to assign a large portion of his beloved creations to suffering for eternity because by that same free will, there would be those who choose to not believe in him.
This is a strange decision to make for a benevolent, all-loving god. Why is free will designed in this way? Why does free will have an implicit inclusion of sin? We are talking about the creator of the universe - all universal laws would have been created by him. Why not create free will, or life, without the ability to commit terrible acts? Again, he knew everything that was to come of his design choices, so why would he continue with them despite having the ability to change it?
Sure, he didn't have to offer us salvation at all. However, he also didn't have to offer the current version of free will. He could have offered us anything. He could have replaced gravity with something else. He is all-powerful and there is no limit to what he could have done, but he still designed us imperfectly unless, by his eyes, we are perfect. If we are a perfect creation, then his design would have to be intentional, for better or for worse. He would have the foreknowledge of all that was to come and the eternal fates of many of his creations, and he would have to approve of those outcomes. This would change the idea of a "loving god" to one that is similar to a person being proud of their ant colony and the ecosystem they designed rather than a creator who loves all of his creations individually and wants to protect them and keep them safe/happy. One that is interested in the simulation of life rather than the life itself.
He designed us perfectly. If you think this life is all there is, then it might suck. But if you look at it that souls choose their life, including atheists, for experiences outside of perfection, and this isn't reality or our natural state, then it makes more sense.
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