When was America great ?

[BigPapaKain]

(07-11-2023, 04:25 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: I've always asked myself what kind of people was capable of giving money to Kenneth Copeland and now I know.

Can you blame them? The man needed 3 private jets for tHe LoRd.

Must be that giving to the poor Jesus was big on.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-11-2023, 01:52 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I was actually just pointing out the hypocrisy of claiming God is some omniscient being who failed to see the problem with putting forbidden fruit somewhere where it could be accessed.

Failed to see the problem? What problem did he fail to see exactly?

Quote:I'm not; looking for fairness would mean trying to understand what I believe to be a fictional intent. That's like trying to say Voldermort was being fair or unfair; it doesn't matter because it's made up.

It does matter, because you don't know if it's made up.

Even if it was, people argue about fictional characters all the time. Seems to me like you're just coping out at this point. You seemed to care enough to discuss the omniscience and omnipotence and benevolence of his character, but now suddenly it's "I don't care about fairy tales".

Quote:Omniscience means he knew exactly what would happen and let it happen anyway. That is 100% intentional. If I'm knowingly putting explosive materials next to an open flame, there's clear intent.

Except it doesn't.

You said "If I'm knowingly putting explosive materials next to an open flame, there's clear intent."

Clear intent of what exactly? Until you state your intentions nobody knows what your intent was. It's just speculation.

Quote:Do you want exact quotes or talk about the differences between Old and New Testaments?

Not looking for a laundry list. Just a few examples.

Quote:I'm not accusing God of anything anymore than I'm accusing Darth Vader of anything. Accusing a fictional character of anything is simply speculation at best. I'm just making talking points. At the end of the day, your faith (in general, not YOU specifically) doesn't bother me in the slightest. As long as it's not being forced on anyone against their will.

You are though. You're literally making claims against God, fictional or not.

[Leon]

(07-11-2023, 04:02 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Whoa there partner - judge not and all that.

Plus sins are your rules. Some of us consider what you call sinning 'the human condition'.

we are ordered to judge when we see wickedness against Gods way, please know ALL the Word before you speak on it

[*pally*]

(07-11-2023, 06:00 PM)Leon Wrote: we are ordered to judge when we see wickedness against Gods way, please know ALL the Word before you speak on it

you voted for Donald Trump....A man who has not only violated every one of the 10 commandments but embraces the 7 deadly sins....A man any of his followers equate with God himself.

So give me a break....a true follower of God would have run as fast as they could from Trump not embraced him and his politics.  Then of course, spend years justifying their votes

[Leon]

(07-11-2023, 06:06 PM)pally Wrote: you voted for Donald Trump....A man who has not only violated every one of the 10 commandments but embraces the 7 deadly sins....A man any of his followers equate with God himself.

So give me a break....a true follower of God would have run as fast as they could from Trump not embraced him and his politics.  Then of course, spend years justifying their votes

i also said trump was wrong in the hole documents things cause he put hisself over the country. i wont be supporting this time

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-11-2023, 06:06 PM)pally Wrote: you voted for Donald Trump....A man who has not only violated every one of the 10 commandments but embraces the 7 deadly sins....A man any of his followers equate with God himself.

So give me a break....a true follower of God would have run as fast as they could from Trump not embraced him and his politics.  Then of course, spend years justifying their votes

It's christianity 2.0 where you do all the opposite Jesus would do and somehow tell other people how good of a people you are and how terrible other people  are.

They would be delighted to throw the first stone and even they would pay for it.

[*pally*]

(07-11-2023, 06:11 PM)Leon Wrote: i also said trump was wrong in the hole documents things cause he put hisself over the country. i wont be supporting this time

It didn't stop you before

[Leon]

(07-11-2023, 09:06 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but this sounds like predestination doctrine which I wholeheartedly reject. 

The idea that God has predetermined everything just doesn't sound logical to me.

You said "preferred reality" but I question this. I don't understand why allowing one thing to exist over another means you prefer that. Would one argue that having a cars gas tank close to empty is preferable to a full one? No, but people drive around with close to empty gas tanks all the time. Not because they prefer that but because they allow it to be a reality.
Sure, God is allowing us to choose to drive around with almost empty gas tanks, but I wouldn't say that's what he prefers simply because  he allows it and knows omnicsiently that we will have an almost empty gas tank.




See but again, the problem I have with the argument is in the bold. When you say "what he hired them to do" are you saying to sin? Or to have free will? Because yes, I would agree that he hired us to have free will (in a limited sense of course) but he did not hire us to sin. Now that might sound contradictory. How can God give us free will but also demand obedience? 
Well as I mentioned in a separate post, complete free will is a fallacy. Complete free will can never exist because it is a paradox. So the next step is to limit it but still allow for some freedom. You can liken it to someone bending there arm. You have the free range of motion (free will) to bend your arm as far as you like, but at some point you have to stop before your arm painfully breaks.

My ultimate point being that free will is always going to have limits. It's just that obeying God has further restriction on your free will, but God still allows you to act freely within a set capacity.


Yes, I believe could have excluding any contradictions.



But I would argue that you only knew the shooter would do it because you have knowledge of the free choice they would make. Not that you have knowledge and that knowledge causes the free will action to take place. It isn't that the shooter can't escape the choice because God knows it will happen, but instead because that is ultimately the choice the shooter will make. Taking God out of all of this, are we all simply bound to fate and every choice we're making right now is unchangeable simply because it's part of the universes current time line?

thank you for keep owning this guy. hes one of the worst on here. doesnt know anything about God or the Word or Gods ways. it gets embarassing watching you keep destroying his points. hes just lie dill an gino and pally. doesnt have any logic points or good arguments. just spouts nonsense thinking if he make it sound smart someone might believe him. just like those other ones do. keep up the great work defending God and the Word. bless you

[Leon]

(07-11-2023, 10:23 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Does the father beat the child mercilessly for doing so? Or does he admit his mistake and do better going foward. One father deserves praise for taking it on himself, the other scoffed at for blaming others for his lack of foresight.

But both of those fathers aren't omniscient deities, so the comparisons don't measure up.


"Suffer a lifetime of pain for a slim chance at eternal paradise maybe if I actually exist. Also, the price abd rules for entrqnce are ridiculous contradictions" sounds like a carrot tied to your head just out of arm's reach. So maybe nothing is too strong a word here. Bare minimum, at best.


With no evidence of an afterlife aside from what folks who have died and come back to say (which is a lot of contradicting stuff and can be traced back to the massive influx of chemicals the brain releases on death), all we as people can do is see the misery in the world. Some folks see it and say 'there has to be a plan' - faith. Others see it and say 'the universe is chaos' - logic.

Whatever let's you make it through the day is all that really matters. 

how can you know anything if you dont start with God? seems like you would just have to make it up as you go along 

[BigPapaKain]

(07-11-2023, 04:45 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Failed to see the problem? What problem did he fail to see exactly?

That his creation would disobey? Are you being obtuse on purpose or what?

Quote:It does matter, because you don't know if it's made up.

Even if it was, people argue about fictional characters all the time. Seems to me like you're just coping out at this point. You seemed to care enough to discuss the omniscience and omnipotence and benevolence of his character, but now suddenly it's "I don't care about fairy tales".

Show me hard evidence of anything in the Bible WITHOUT referencing the Bible.

Even the existence of Jesus is debated, atleast insofar as the Bible tells of his life.

I'm not copping out - I was pointing out how God is either omnipotent and omniscient or callous and not good. Either way, the Bible describes him as both and yet provides evidence that he is neither.

Quote:Except it doesn't.

You said "If I'm knowingly putting explosive materials next to an open flame, there's clear intent."

Clear intent of what exactly? Until you state your intentions nobody knows what your intent was. It's just speculation.

My mistake. TO ANYONE WITH A LICK OF SENSE it's clear intent.

Quote:Not looking for a laundry list. Just a few examples.

Because I don't have all night to type.

Quote:You are though. You're literally making claims against God, fictional or not.

I'm explaining my stance on things and asking questions of the faithful. If you interpret that as accusing God of anything, so be it.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-11-2023, 08:16 PM)Leon Wrote: how can you know anything if you dont start with God? seems like you would just have to make it up as you go along 

Because I have common sense and I know that killing people is inherently wrong, as is stealing, or assaulting them. I also don't have to be told not to rape kids - a lesson that the church apparently doesn't teach.

Anyone with a good heart and a conscience knows how to behave. They don't need a sky daddy telling them this is this and that is that.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-11-2023, 06:00 PM)Leon Wrote: we are ordered to judge when we see wickedness against Gods way, please know ALL the Word before you speak on it

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

There you go Matt - more contradicting nonsense from the Good Book.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-11-2023, 09:08 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: That his creation would disobey? Are you being obtuse on purpose or what?

No, I'm just trying not to assume what you're saying. 
Anyway, God didn't fail to see that. He put the Tree there and you don't know what his intent was for doing it. 

Quote:Show me hard evidence of anything in the Bible WITHOUT referencing the Bible.



Even the existence of Jesus is debated, atleast insofar as the Bible tells of his life.


I'm not copping out - I was pointing out how God is either omnipotent and omniscient or callous and not good. Either way, the Bible describes him as both and yet provides evidence that he is neither.

I'm not here to prove God's existence to you. In my opinion that's not possible in the purest sense. I'm here to argue the points you've made here.

Regardless, my point stands that you didn't seem to have any problem arguing how omniscient, omnipresent or benevolent God is. But apparently arguing about how "fair" he is comparable to arguing about Darth Vader.....

Quote:My mistake. TO ANYONE WITH A LICK OF SENSE it's clear intent.

If someone sees a cop sitting at a stop sign looking directly at them and they decide to speed right past the stop sign, what was their intent?

Quote:Because I don't have all night to type.

I'll come back to this.

Quote:I'm explaining my stance on things and asking questions of the faithful. If you interpret that as accusing God of anything, so be it.

Here's what you've said word for word about God. Literally in your own words.

1. God is literally the reason for misery and suffering.

3. Lucifier refused to hold humanity before God and got sent to the pit for it.

4. Every terrible thing in the Bible is direct result of God getting involved. 

[GMDino]

As a recovering Catholic it has been fun to read through this thread.

None of you know.  I don't know.  We'll never know until we die.

You can BELIEVE but nothing you provide as "facts" can be proven until we die.

Whatever god did or does or didn't do is a "mystery" because it often contradicts what god did, does or didn't do in some other situation...especially when you have exactly one source for your information.

Whatever reason we are here I can't believe it is solely to live by 2000+ year old rules (sometimes, but not others depending on one's "belief) just to appease a god that already died for our sins...but says we are all still sinners who must appeal to him if don't want to suffer in pain for all eternity.

Why sin is inherited but salvation is not will always bother me.

But also if you lead a good life, help your fellow human but don't follow a couple of his rules you'll suffer anyway.

That is not a religion (well, I mean technically it is) it is a way of maintaining power and control over people so they remain subservient to the humans who "speak for god" and a god you sounds more like an abusive spouse than an all-knowing creator of everything.

At least to me.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-09-2023, 11:00 PM)samhain Wrote: I don't think the idea is that we must not suffer. it's that we were put into a state that was highly likely to become suffering, and not by our own volition.  

Sorry I saw you responded to me but never replied back so I'll do that now.

I think this still points to suffering being the root issue for people though. If someone is going to contest that its not suffering but that we weren't given the option, well then I'd say that brings into question the entire argument because it seems to suggest that someone would actually choose suffering over not suffering, which I highly doubt. And if one were to choose suffering, then what difference would it really make for God to have made that choice for you assuming you would have made the choice yourself? Sure it would give you another choice on the spectrum of free will, but in terms of the "goodness" of God, I'm not sure how that would make him look better.

Quote:It's like me offering my pet snake a live mouse.  Now, I normally only feed him pre-killed, and he eats them readily.  But I also know that if I offer live food, his instincts will compel him to strike and wrap.  I suppose he could leave the mouse alone, as in like "anything is possible" kinds of terms.  Like me finding a suitcase with 5 million cash on the way to work possible.  It could happen, but it won't, and nobody would prepare as if it will.  So, here's me in the role of his benevolent overseer, plopping a hapless rodent in there at the mercy of chance, all while telling my kid that if the snake eats the live mouse, imma kill his scaly ass for it.  Live prey is forbidden in my house, and that's a hard rule.  The only rule.  Does the damn snake know that?  Does he understand the human thought process about eating an animal alive and the barbarism is requires?  Hell no.  He's a biological eating machine.  Sees heat and strikes if he's healthy.  This is similar to us allegedly not being able to understand god's thought process, as it is unknowable to us.  If god put that tree there, and he truly knew Adam and Eve, which he most certainly did, he knew well and good what they would do.  


It all just seems very trivial for an all-knowing being.  Put a thing in place that poses a test that they will most certainly fail.  

I would say God knew they would definitely fail, but for whatever reason, perhaps just to have more beings to love/have worship him, he created us even though he knew we'd fail. In terms of being an all powerful God, failure seems quite insignificant when you can reverse that failure through salvation.

Now of course, people take issue with the idea of needing to be saved in the first place. That's something people will just have to take up with God. From my perspective, I'm willing to accept that because he is the creator of all things, has mercy on me and has offered me a way out of the suffering even if he put me in a world in which suffering exists.

[Arturo Bandini]

This discussion reminds me when there is a real big drama like the tsunami in Thailand for example and 200 000 people died in minutes.

When they found like 5 people who survived, people are yelling, it's a miracle !!! God is great !!! Those people were saved by the all Mighty ! Alleliua !

Suddently forgetting the 200 000 dead people for whom God didn't do anything ...

[Millhouse]

(07-12-2023, 09:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: As a recovering Catholic it has been fun to read through this thread.

None of you know.  I don't know.  We'll never know until we die.

You can BELIEVE but nothing you provide as "facts" can be proven until we die.

Whatever god did or does or didn't do is a "mystery" because it often contradicts what god did, does or didn't do in some other situation...especially when you have exactly one source for your information.

Whatever reason we are here I can't believe it is solely to live by 2000+ year old rules (sometimes, but not others depending on one's "belief) just to appease a god that already died for our sins...but says we are all still sinners who must appeal to him if don't want to suffer in pain for all eternity.

Why sin is inherited but salvation is not will always bother me.

But also if you lead a good life, help your fellow human but don't follow a couple of his rules you'll suffer anyway.

That is not a religion (well, I mean technically it is) it is a way of maintaining power and control over people so they remain subservient to the humans who "speak for god" and a god you sounds more like an abusive spouse than an all-knowing creator of everything.

At least to me.

This is where I feel a lot of religious folks get it wrong. Someone, let's say in India, who is genuinely kind and nice to others around, helping and just being an all around good person but had never heard of Jesus. Some folks would say that person because they never asked for salvation or forgiveness can not enter heaven. But a serial murderer and rapist could enter heaven by simply asking for forgiveness as long as they mean it. Massive logic fail there for me. 

[BigPapaKain]

(07-12-2023, 06:37 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: No, I'm just trying not to assume what you're saying. 
Anyway, God didn't fail to see that. He put the Tree there and you don't know what his intent was for doing it. 


I'm not here to prove God's existence to you. In my opinion that's not possible in the purest sense. I'm here to argue the points you've made here.

Regardless, my point stands that you didn't seem to have any problem arguing how omniscient, omnipresent or benevolent God is. But apparently arguing about how "fair" he is comparable to arguing about Darth Vader.....




If someone sees a cop sitting at a stop sign looking directly at them and they decide to speed right past the stop sign, what was their intent?





I'll come back to this.






Here's what you've said word for word about God. Literally in your own words.

1. God is literally the reason for misery and suffering.

3. Lucifier refused to hold humanity before God and got sent to the pit for it.

4. Every terrible thing in the Bible is direct result of God getting involved. 

Those aren't accusations - they're interpretations and things that are in the Bible.

Satan didn't bring the flood, or the 10 plagues of Egypy, or destroy Saddam and Gamorah, or destroy the tower of Babel, or give Jod a really bad day.

Are you disputing Lucifer being cast into the pit?

As for the cop thing - yeah, his intent is to see if the cop is paying attention. Or commit suicide by cop, depending on the city and his ethnicity (that's a joke, SSF - don't get bent out of shape).

And I'm probably not putting my thoughts into words correctly as far as comparing God to Darth Vader - I'll try it again some other time.

[samhain]

(07-12-2023, 10:23 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Sorry I saw you responded to me but never replied back so I'll do that now.

I think this still points to suffering being the root issue for people though. If someone is going to contest that its not suffering but that we weren't given the option, well then I'd say that brings into question the entire argument because it seems to suggest that someone would actually choose suffering over not suffering, which I highly doubt. And if one were to choose suffering, then what difference would it really make for God to have made that choice for you assuming you would have made the choice yourself? Sure it would give you another choice on the spectrum of free will, but in terms of the "goodness" of God, I'm not sure how that would make him look better.





I would say God knew they would definitely fail, but for whatever reason, perhaps just to have more beings to love/have worship him, he created us even though he knew we'd fail. In terms of being an all powerful God, failure seems quite insignificant when you can reverse that failure through salvation.

Now of course, people take issue with the idea of needing to be saved in the first place. That's something people will just have to take up with God. From my perspective, I'm willing to accept that because he is the creator of all things, has mercy on me and has offered me a way out of the suffering even if he put me in a world in which suffering exists.

Not to be disrespectful, but it all seems like either a manmade story (highly likely) or a crazy coincidence.  We have an omnipotent, sentient god.  He made everything in existence, including us, and he knows everything that ever has happened or will happen.  He is all.  Yet, he has the very familiar and very human emotion of neediness.  He needs to be loved for some reason.  If he doesn't get this love, then he will experience the emotion of jealousy, and he will exert anger at his creation in ways that are unimaginably horrific, as his followers will tell you.  

These are all things we do and understand.  It's almost like someone, a human, conceived of this deity at some point and gave him all of the personality traits that go along with being a powerful person.

We don't even let our lowly human counterparts react with violent anger, even if they are deprived of love. Not even when they break laws. Heck, we even un-alive them for it in some states. Yet we worship someone who promises to torture the vast majority of us forever.

[Arturo Bandini]

It should have been a long trip for Noah to get to Australia just to board off the kangaroos and koalas and then come back to the rest of the world to unload all the other animals.