When will the GOP admit to themselves and their voters the truth about Donald Trump a

[GreenDragon]

Question for the "conservatives" here:
When will the GOP admit to themselves and their voters the truth about Donald Trump and his crimes?
What's it going to take? I really want to know.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

It'll never happen, b/c that's not how cults work.

[Mike M (the other one)]

As soon as the Democrats learn that their fiscally irresponsible policies are a direct attack on the Middle class standard of living and economic prosperity?

[GMDino]

(08-23-2023, 06:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: As soon as the Democrats learn that their fiscally irresponsible policies are a direct attack on the Middle class standard of living and economic prosperity?

Which policies?

Because the middle class standard of living has been under attack since the 1980's.

[GreenDragon]

(08-23-2023, 06:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: As soon as the Democrats learn that their fiscally irresponsible policies are a direct attack on the Middle class standard of living and economic prosperity?

Stay on topic, please. We're talking about the GOP and admitting the truth about Donald Trump. 

GO!

[hollodero]

(08-23-2023, 06:20 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: As soon as the Democrats learn that their fiscally irresponsible policies are a direct attack on the Middle class standard of living and economic prosperity?

Really? As soon as Democrats say that their fiscally irresposible policies hurt the middle class, all Trump fans will suddenly go ah okay then, guess we can drop his dumb insurrectionist ass now?

Somehow I do not believe it.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(08-24-2023, 07:47 AM)hollodero Wrote: Really? As soon as Democrats say that their fiscally irresposible policies hurt the middle class, all Trump fans will suddenly go ah okay then, guess we can drop his dumb insurrectionist ass now?

Somehow I do not believe it.

baby steps

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-24-2023, 07:47 AM)hollodero Wrote: Really? As soon as Democrats say that their fiscally irresposible policies hurt the middle class, all Trump fans will suddenly go ah okay then, guess we can drop his dumb insurrectionist ass now?

Somehow I do not believe it.

Actually, I do think if the Dems dropped their more extreme positions then you'd see support for Trump start to fade.  It's never going to go away entirely, but many people see him as a bulwark against a radical Dem agenda that threatens the very cultural fabric of the nation.  The idea of being a nation of law and order (ironic considering the zeal in which they've gone after Trump) literally doesn't exist in many deep blue areas.  I could go on about other cultural touchstones, but none would surprise anyone.  

It also doesn't help that things were perceivably better under Trump, regardless of whether he was responsible for it or not. 

[Luvnit2]

I don't think history will be kind in the persecution of a former president and the leading political opponent of the sitting president. It is painfully obvious the justice department is corrupt, Garland is corrupt, Weiss is corrupt.

I go back to what James Comey stated about then candidate Hillary Clinton, Hillary is guilty of crimes, but no reasonable prosecutor would prosecute her. That was the summer of 2016. James Comey has made it known he was a Democrat and Trump hater.

Now, we have Trump being persecuted by a corrupt justice department (under water as trust worthy) for any crime they can find. Their goal is to eliminate the GOP nominee, eliminate the threat Donal Trump using a partisan Democratic justice department at the National and state levels.

All of this while we see that same justice department attempt to let Hunter Biden off of high crimes with a slap on the wrist. The investigation into Joe Biden and his son is ramping up in Congress as the DOJ sits on their hands and ignores evidence Biden took a bribe and Hunter Biden laundered money.

But just like Trump, Biden should be treated as innocent until proven guilty. But sadly, the OP in this thread and many have jumped from accusations to guilt only on Trump.

[hollodero]

(08-24-2023, 10:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, I do think if the Dems dropped their more extreme positions then you'd see support for Trump start to fade.  It's never going to go away entirely, but many people see him as a bulwark against a radical Dem agenda that threatens the very cultural fabric of the nation.  The idea of being a nation of law and order (ironic considering the zeal in which they've gone after Trump) literally doesn't exist in many deep blue areas.  I could go on about other cultural touchstones, but none would surprise anyone.  

It also doesn't help that things were perceivably better under Trump, regardless of whether he was responsible for it or not. 

This is difficult terrain. But for one, I do think you're slightly exaggerating the alleged unamerican hellhole liberal rule produces. I get California as example, but imho, it doesn't really play out that way on a national level. But I am aware you see that quite differently, but overall, I consider the Biden administration to be fairly moderate.

But even if that isn't so for many. I can not take this as wholesome explanation for Trump. Any republican president would serve as a counter to liberal policies, all of them that debated yesterday, it would not take Trump to do so. Trump is the rhetorical extreme, that's what's appealing, and his anti-liberal positions reach far beyond reality and straight into hostility and demonization. To me, he appeals to the worst, irrational instincts in what he paints as an ideological civil war, and that does not go away. It has little to do with rationality.

Which btw. is not a shot against those that eventually would vote for him over Biden. There I can see your point more clearly, he might appear as the better choice for conservaitive leaning folks. But when it comes to him leading distinctly in the primaries, that to me is something else.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(08-24-2023, 12:14 AM)GreenDragon Wrote: Stay on topic, please. We're talking about the GOP and admitting the truth about Donald Trump. 

GO!

It is absolutely on topic (at least to me it is), you asked what it would take to get people to stop supporting/voting for Trump/conservatives.

Dems lost the majority vote of the working class group. Until they learn stop talking about constantly raising taxes to pay for social nets, they won't win this class back. The middle class is the ones that pay for all of this and we aren't nearly as stupid as they'd like us to be.

What's the Conservatives motto? Lower taxes for everyone and while not always successful, they do get taxes lowered enough times that we will back them.

So out of the two options, which do you think most of the middle class will lean to? 

Think about it, when it was Trump vs Hillary, Trump won the Mid West where most of those voters reside.
Biden was at least smart enough to pander votes from this group and he won, but it wasn't a landslide.

% of each class as of 2021
Middle: 50%
Lower: 29%
Upper: 21%

So as i said, want to stop people from supporting Conservatives, then pander to the middle class and start delivering on some of those promises. Until then, people will turn a blind eye towards Trump's BS and just follow along that it's politics as usual. We don't have time to keep up with this bs, we are busy working and providing for our families. That's what most important to us. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-24-2023, 11:55 AM)hollodero Wrote: This is difficult terrain. But for one, I do think you're slightly exaggerating the alleged unamerican hellhole liberal rule produces. I get California as example, but imho, it doesn't really play out that way on a national level. But I am aware you see that quite differently, but overall, I consider the Biden administration to be fairly moderate.

I think Biden tends moderate, I don't know that his administration does.  For example, they have the ATF absolutely abusing their power to shut done FFL's (licensed gun dealers) at a rate never before seen.

https://archive.li/dfVlZ

As for the law and order, it may not be a problem nationally, but it damn sure is in deep blue areas.  And people watch the news and they see exactly what's going on here, and places like here, and they don't want it coming to where they live.

Quote:But even if that isn't so for many. I can not take this as wholesome explanation for Trump. Any republican president would serve as a counter to liberal policies, all of them that debated yesterday, it would not take Trump to do so. Trump is the rhetorical extreme, that's what's appealing, and his anti-liberal positions reach far beyond reality and straight into hostility and demonization. To me, he appeals to the worst, irrational instincts in what he paints as an ideological civil war, and that does not go away. It has little to do with rationality.

I can't argue with any of this, but he's in the position he's in.  I think there was a time that we could have moved past Trump, and I legitimately thought we would, but that time has passed.

Quote:Which btw. is not a shot against those that eventually would vote for him over Biden. There I can see your point more clearly, he might appear as the better choice for conservaitive leaning folks. But when it comes to him leading distinctly in the primaries, that to me is something else.

A good point.  But I don't see any of the current GOP candidates as being able to unseat Trump.  DeSantis had the best chance initially, but his campaign has not been run well, at all.  A few of them have definitely set themselves up for future success; Tim Scott and Vivek for example. But no one is going to unseat Trump at this point.  Not to get back on this topic again, but all the indictments absolutely sealed the deal for Trump.  Like it or not a considerable number of people see this as a political witch hunt and a gross abuse of the criminal justice system.  The people who think that way, and they were sadly given major ammunition by Bragg, literally see this as a fight for the nation.

[CJD]

(08-24-2023, 12:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It is absolutely on topic (at least to me it is), you asked what it would take to get people to stop supporting/voting for Trump/conservatives.

Dems lost the majority vote of the working class group. Until they learn stop talking about constantly raising taxes to pay for social nets, they won't win this class back. The middle class is the ones that pay for all of this and we aren't nearly as stupid as they'd like us to be.

What's the Conservatives motto? Lower taxes for everyone and while not always successful, they do get taxes lowered enough times that we will back them.

So out of the two options, which do you think most of the middle class will lean to? 

Think about it, when it was Trump vs Hillary, Trump won the Mid West where most of those voters reside.
Biden was at least smart enough to pander votes from this group and he won, but it wasn't a landslide.

% of each class as of 2021
Middle: 50%
Lower: 29%
Upper: 21%

So as i said, want to stop people from supporting Conservatives, then pander to the middle class and start delivering on some of those promises. Until then, people will turn a blind eye towards Trump's BS and just follow along that it's politics as usual. We don't have time to keep up with this bs, we are busy working and providing for our families. That's what most important to us. 

I think the question was clearly about Trump specifically.

As in, "When will conservatives stop supporting Trump and, instead, vote for another non-criminal conservative?"

I don't think the implication is "when will conservatives start voting for Democrats?"

[hollodero]

(08-24-2023, 01:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think Biden tends moderate, I don't know that his administration does.  For example, they have the ATF absolutely abusing their power to shut done FFL's (licensed gun dealers) at a rate never before seen.

https://archive.li/dfVlZ

Hm. I can't say for certain that this constitutes an abuse of power. Violations of rules and laws seem like a legit reason to shut down a dealership. Whether the consequences meet the offenses or whether there were no real offenses in the first place, I can not say for certain even after reading the article. I doubt, however, that this affair really threads the needle significantly for many people.

(08-24-2023, 01:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As for the law and order, it may not be a problem nationally, but it damn sure is in deep blue areas.  And people watch the news and they see exactly what's going on here, and places like here, and they don't want it coming to where they live.

An understandable reason to vote GOP. Not so much to go full Trump in the primaries though.
Even more so since Trump's reputation as being law and order is somewhat damaged by his conduct. Meaning, he did plenty crimes, from fake universities and Kushner Quatari deals to insurrectionist schemes. I get that many people see that differently, but said people are not gettable for Democrats anyway.

(08-24-2023, 01:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A good point.  But I don't see any of the current GOP candidates as being able to unseat Trump.  DeSantis had the best chance initially, but his campaign has not been run well, at all.  A few of them have definitely set themselves up for future success; Tim Scott and Vivek for example. But no one is going to unseat Trump at this point.  Not to get back on this topic again, but all the indictments absolutely sealed the deal for Trump.  Like it or not a considerable number of people see this as a political witch hunt and a gross abuse of the criminal justice system.  The people who think that way, and they were sadly given major ammunition by Bragg, literally see this as a fight for the nation.

Oh sure, no one of those people can unseat Trump. That much is apparent. I just think the reasons are not the rational ones you are listing.
I just have difficulty envisiong the person on the fence that now opts for Trump over these indictments. Putting the Stormy issue aside, which imho does not really matter all that much for most folks. The other indictments are clearly not just made up charges. Whoever only believes FOX will have a different take, but again those aren't the people that would ever contemplate to vote for a Democrat anyway.

Take someone like yourself, meaning someone who does not fall for FOX narratives. Would someone like yourself really feel inclined to vote for Trump in a primary (again, not talking general election) because of the Bragg indictment or over democratic policies or gun dealers or anything of that sort? Why would one do so, if not being a full Trump supporter from the start?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

A very important point that I haven't seen mentioned yet, the Dems are actively pushing for Trump to be the nominee.

https://thehill.com/homenews/3748767-the-memo-democrats-pine-for-trump-as-gop-nominee/

This is obviously because they view him as the easiest opponent as Biden is exactly popular or dynamic. You saw a similar thing in the 2022 elections when the Dems funneled money to more extreme candidates (they obviously did it through PACS and such, not directly for those primed to jump on this comment). It's a dangerous game to play and one should heed to old adage, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

This doesn't excuse those willing to look past Trump's issues. But it does show that the Dems have a fair hand in enabling his nomination as well.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-24-2023, 01:25 PM)hollodero Wrote: Hm. I can't say for certain that this constitutes an abuse of power. Violations of rules and laws seem like a legit reason to shut down a dealership. Whether the consequences meet the offenses or whether there were no real offenses in the first place, I can not say for certain even after reading the article. I doubt, however, that this affair really threads the needle significantly for many people.

It is.  They are shutting down people's businesses because of common paperwork errors.  I have two friends who have FFL's.  Both confirm this is far from the norm.  I agree it's not a major issue for most people, but it's a perfect example of how Biden's administration abuses their power.  It's also the first one to come to mind.

Quote:An understandable reason to vote GOP. Not so much to go full Trump in the primaries though.
Even more so since Trump's reputation as being law and order is somewhat damaged by his conduct. Meaning, he did plenty crimes, from fake universities and Kushner Quatari deals to insurrectionist schemes. I get that many people see that differently, but said people are not gettable for Democrats anyway.

There are plenty those of people who are gettable by Dems if they rolled back the far left push (far left for the US anyways).  As you correctly point out we have a binary choice.  I can absolutely understand a person being turned off enough by Dem positions to hold their nose and vote for Trump.  Especially, as I said earlier, given that things were perceivably better when he was POTUS.

Quote:Oh sure, no one of those people can unseat Trump. That much is apparent. I just think the reasons are not the rational ones you are listing.
I just have difficulty envisiong the person on the fence that now opts for Trump over these indictments. Putting the Stormy issue aside, which imho does not really matter all that much for most folks. The other indictments are clearly not just made up charges. Whoever only believes FOX will have a different take, but again those aren't the people that would ever contemplate to vote for a Democrat anyway.

Here's the problem with the Bragg indictment.  It's flimsy as hell and literally everyone is acknowledging it, even far left sources.  When you lump it in with everything else it absolutely pollutes the perceived legitimacy of the other indictments.  Bragg literally slipped a rotten apple into the barrel and for many it's already turned the whole barrel rotten.  If you're going to go after a former POTUS then you'd best have a rock solid unassailable case.  Bragg does not, nor does he even come close to it.  I've said it before, Bragg did more than any other single person to taint any indictments of Trump in the eyes of millions.

Quote:Take someone like yourself, meaning someone who does not fall for FOX narratives. Would someone like yourself really feel inclined to vote for Trump in a primary (again, not talking general election) because of the Bragg indictment or over democratic policies or gun dealers or anything of that sort? Why would one do so, if not being a full Trump supporter from the start?

No, I would not.  A possible reason why someone would is they think he's the person with the best shot at beating Biden.  Another would be to think he's being unfairly persecuted, a perception which Bragg lends a lot of credence to.  Thankfully, I don't live in a state in which it would matter, because I honestly don't know which of the two I'd vote for in the general election if I was forced to choose.  Unless something radically changes I can't envision myself voting for a Democrat again in my entire life.  The misery they've unleased here is so bad if you wrote a script detailing it and showed it to me three years ago I'd have told you what you wrote was literally impossible.  I thank the powers that be every day that I bought a house in Orange County in 2020, because LA is in a very sorry state.

[basballguy]

GreenDragon

(08-23-2023, 04:22 PM)GreenDragon Wrote: Question for the "conservatives" here:
When will the GOP admit to themselves and their voters the truth about Donald Trump and his crimes?
What's it going to take? I really want to know.

(08-24-2023, 12:14 AM)GreenDragon Wrote: Stay on topic, please. We're talking about the GOP and admitting the truth about Donald Trump. 

GO!

To me, this is the type of thread that attempts to bait the other side into an argument.  


You've clearly come to a conclusion on the matter, you just want to know when those that disagree with you will finally start agreeing with you?  This doesn't promote discussion, it promotes divisiveness.  

I'm not about to go post "When will liberals finally accept Joe Biden is senile and too incompetent to be president?"  


You want change in this forum, you start with threads like this.

Edit: I didn't notice there was an entire sub forum made for just DJT and JB....I think that's a good start since those two seem to cause the most divisiveness. I'll just steer clear of that forum. :)

[hollodero]

(08-24-2023, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It is.  They are shutting down people's businesses because of common paperwork errors.  I have two friends who have FFL's.  Both confirm this is far from the norm.  I agree it's not a major issue for most people, but it's a perfect example of how Biden's administration abuses their power.  It's also the first one to come to mind.

OK, maybe it is abuse of power, though I would say being outside a norm alone is not the same thing as power abuse. But the main problem with this example is that it does probably not sway an electon or turns Trump doubters into Trump believers. That's just a premise I see unfulfilled.

(08-24-2023, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: There are plenty those of people who are gettable by Dems if they rolled back the far left push (far left for the US anyways).  As you correctly point out we have a binary choice.  I can absolutely understand a person being turned off enough by Dem positions to hold their nose and vote for Trump.  Especially, as I said earlier, given that things were perceivably better when he was POTUS.

Well, of course, there are plenty understandable reasons to still vote Trump. I'd still hope that for most people, there are even better reasons to not do so, but it's of course easier to feel that way when one likes left policies.
If things were better, that's probably a matter of perspective. Some people might just feel that things are better now that there's not three asinine presidential tweets a day to talk about. But sure, overall, I understand. Inflation etc. are issues for sure.

(08-24-2023, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Here's the problem with the Bragg indictment.  It's flimsy as hell and literally everyone is acknowledging it, even far left sources.  When you lump it in with everything else it absolutely pollutes the perceived legitimacy of the other indictments.  Bragg literally slipped a rotten apple into the barrel and for many it's already turned the whole barrel rotten.  If you're going to go after a former POTUS then you'd best have a rock solid unassailable case.  Bragg does not, nor does he even come close to it.  I've said it before, Bragg did more than any other single person to taint any indictments of Trump in the eyes of millions.

I understand why Bragg appears weak. I think it would be fair though to separate the Bragg indictment from the others. I understand that many people are motivated not to do so and to use the possibly weakest indictment to weaken the others. But these are usually the same people that thought the barrel to be rotten to begin with, and just would use any argument to paint it as such. Would the Bragg indictment not exist, I doubt people would view the other indictments any differently. The doubters would just find another reason to doubt. Eg. Luvnit does not need Bragg in his arguments.

In that sense, I think you're overestimating the importance a bit. And my main reason to say so is that imho an unbiased view can only be that a weak indictment over hush money can not mean a different indictment over pretty blatant insurrection attempts should be declared null and void. I think it's fair to say that and I can't really believe many neutral people would disagree. So I also doubt many people's view actually hinge on the Bragg indictment alone.

(08-24-2023, 01:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, I would not.  A possible reason why someone would is they think he's the person with the best shot at beating Biden.  Another would be to think he's being unfairly persecuted, a perception which Bragg lends a lot of credence to.  Thankfully, I don't live in a state in which it would matter, because I honestly don't know which of the two I'd vote for in the general election if I was forced to choose.  Unless something radically changes I can't envision myself voting for a Democrat again in my entire life.  The misery they've unleased here is so bad if you wrote a script detailing it and showed it to me three years ago I'd have told you what you wrote was literally impossible.  I thank the powers that be every day that I bought a house in Orange County in 2020, because LA is in a very sorry state.

I just checked, surveys say folks are actually not happy there. So yeah, I get the point.

Only thing I'd disagree with is that Trump has the best shot. Someone posted the numbers somewhere, but it seems any candidate would fare just as well as Trump against Biden. And imho that makes sense. And unlike Trump, a slightly less extreme personality might just bring those suburbians back, while Trump has pretty much set his limit. He appears to be the candidate who is among the least likely to beat Biden and strategic primary voters might acknowledge that.

[GreenDragon]

(08-24-2023, 12:31 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It is absolutely on topic (at least to me it is), you asked what it would take to get people to stop supporting/voting for Trump/conservatives.

Dems lost the majority vote of the working class group. Until they learn stop talking about constantly raising taxes to pay for social nets, they won't win this class back. The middle class is the ones that pay for all of this and we aren't nearly as stupid as they'd like us to be.

What's the Conservatives motto? Lower taxes for everyone and while not always successful, they do get taxes lowered enough times that we will back them.

So out of the two options, which do you think most of the middle class will lean to? 

Think about it, when it was Trump vs Hillary, Trump won the Mid West where most of those voters reside.
Biden was at least smart enough to pander votes from this group and he won, but it wasn't a landslide.

% of each class as of 2021
Middle: 50%
Lower: 29%
Upper: 21%

So as i said, want to stop people from supporting Conservatives, then pander to the middle class and start delivering on some of those promises. Until then, people will turn a blind eye towards Trump's BS and just follow along that it's politics as usual. We don't have time to keep up with this bs, we are busy working and providing for our families. That's what most important to us. 

[GreenDragon]

(08-24-2023, 01:43 PM)basballguy Wrote: GreenDragon


To me, this is the type of thread that attempts to bait the other side into an argument.  


You've clearly come to a conclusion on the matter, you just want to know when those that disagree with you will finally start agreeing with you?  This doesn't promote discussion, it promotes divisiveness.  

I'm not about to go post "When will liberals finally accept Joe Biden is senile and too incompetent to be president?"  


You want change in this forum, you start with threads like this.

Edit:  I didn't notice there was an entire sub forum made for just DJT and JB....I think that's a good start since those two seem to cause the most divisiveness.  I'll just steer clear of that forum.  :)

This is for Conservatives / GOP / whatever you want to call them. What will it take for your side to admit the truth about Trump? Period. I see too much cognitive dissonance around and that shite is getting old.