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(01-26-2024, 04:35 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I see a problem anytime anyone doesn't vote their conscience. From what I've heard there's a lot to disagree with in the bill, so it's not a case of something well crafted being sabotaged solely by Trump. Honestly, my biggest issue would be in not properly enforcing immigration laws actually on the books. Start there and then move forward.
Isn’t that the whole thing with a bipartisan negotiation? There is some give and take. You are not going to get everything you want, neither is the other side. It’s called compromise. And it’s how democracies are supposed to work imo.
I didn’t hear anybody talking bad about it until Trump gave the marching orders.
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(01-26-2024, 05:01 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Isn’t that the whole thing with a bipartisan negotiation? There is some give and take. You are not going to get everything you want, neither is the other side. It’s called compromise. And it’s how democracies are supposed to work imo.
I didn’t hear anybody talking bad about it until Trump gave the marching orders.
I heard plenty bad about it prior to Trump's pronouncement. You are correct about compromises, but why is a compromise needed when an easy alternative, actually enforcing existing immigration law, already exists?
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(01-26-2024, 05:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I heard plenty bad about it prior to Trump's pronouncement. You are correct about compromises, but why is a compromise needed when an easy alternative, actually enforcing existing immigration law, already exists?
Because existing law isn't working.
For example, a person presenting themselves at a legal port of entry and requesting asylum must be admitted until a hearing can be held which in an ideal world would take place within weeks if not days but because there is a massive shortage of immigration judges currently takes months.
The penalties for employing undocumented workers are minimal compared to the benefits of hiring them. Stop the jobs and you will stop a lot of the border crossings.
For a country of our size we admit so few legal immigrants that for people from countries such as Mexico the waitlist for a legal visa is so long that it is virtually impossible to ever get one
Our entire immigration system has needed updating for decades but Congress hasn't wanted to deal with this issue.
CBP needs more people, better facilities, better equipment, and revised laws. They need state and federal governments to stop using immigration as a political battering ram.
Now the Senate has come close to addressing some of the problems and Trump sends the word to not even consider it because it would give Biden a victory. So much for America First
Fueled by the pursuit of greatness.
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(01-26-2024, 05:53 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I heard plenty bad about it prior to Trump's pronouncement. You are correct about compromises, but why is a compromise needed when an easy alternative, actually enforcing existing immigration law, already exists?
Do you think the existing immigration laws are good enough?
Seems to me there is clearly flaws when depending on who is potus and how they feel that day an immigration executive order ends up tied up in the courts because of executive over reach. And different interpretations of the law end up with different outcomes.
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(01-26-2024, 06:29 PM)pally Wrote: Because existing law isn't working.
Existing law isn't even being enforced. You cannot logically say something doesn't work when you're not even implementing it.
Quote:For example, a person presenting themselves at a legal port of entry and requesting asylum must be admitted until a hearing can be held which in an ideal world would take place within weeks if not days but because there is a massive shortage of immigration judges currently takes months.
The laws for asylum state you must apply at the first possible nation. Consequently, if you're not Mexican and you're applying for asylum from the southern border your claim should be automatically denied as Mexico is recognized as a safe nation to apply for asylum. See what I mean about not even enforcing existing law?
Quote:The penalties for employing undocumented workers are minimal compared to the benefits of hiring them. Stop the jobs and you will stop a lot of the border crossings.
On this we completely agree. But even the laws on the books in this regard are not enforced. More ammunition for my point.
Quote:For a country of our size we admit so few legal immigrants that for people from countries such as Mexico the waitlist for a legal visa is so long that it is virtually impossible to ever get one
It's hardly impossible, it has a waiting list.
Quote:Our entire immigration system has needed updating for decades but Congress hasn't wanted to deal with this issue.
We agree on this as well. The solution is not ignoring the laws that already exist as has been happening for decades and has ramped up significantly under Biden.
Quote:CBP needs more people, better facilities, better equipment, and revised laws. They need state and federal governments to stop using immigration as a political battering ram.
The first thing they need is for actual laws to be enforced. Immigration would not be a political "battering ram" as you put it if it wasn't for the deliberate refusal to enforce existing law. Border states have been dealing with this issue for decades, as already stated. Now that other states, largely Democratic strongholds are feeling the effect all of the sudden it's an urgent political issue. As much as I dislike the cynical nature of busing migrants to "sanctuary cities", it was a brilliant move in regard to shedding light on the problem and the Dems utter hypocrisy on this issue.
Quote:Now the Senate has come close to addressing some of the problems and Trump sends the word to not even consider it because it would give Biden a victory. So much for America First
Even with this deal it would hardly be a Biden victory, The guy has fumbled the ball on this issue way too hard for him to score any points on a partial resolution, which is all this deal would achieve.
(01-26-2024, 06:30 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Do you think the existing immigration laws are good enough?
I think you need to actually enforce them first to determine this.
Quote:Seems to me there is clearly flaws when depending on who is potus and how they feel that day an immigration executive order ends up tied up in the courts because of executive over reach. And different interpretations of the law end up with different outcomes.
That's because the executive branch has a lot of leeway in this regard.
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(01-26-2024, 09:29 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Something tells me the system is broken.
https://youtu.be/k2J9tCB0oOA?si=gEa_YJlVffT6kJju
https://youtu.be/V6Lq5WetBGs?si=P0RfJ4q21TWdQxP8
https://youtu.be/lDPoxoLslbc?si=HzLpB7kox5ZtAzoW
https://youtu.be/xKVKrm8v7WM?si=ku_URA4ATtCIBy8W
Presidents have been saying it since I’ve been paying attention to politics.
And that entire time the haven't been enforcing the laws on the books. Every POTUS you cited here did absolutely nothing about the issue. At one time all of them had the majority to push through changes to immigration law. Yet none of them did it. Ask yourself why that is.
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(01-26-2024, 09:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: And that entire time the haven't been enforcing the laws on the books. Every POTUS you cited here did absolutely nothing about the issue. At one time all of them had the majority to push through changes to immigration law. Yet none of them did it. Ask yourself why that is.
They all made pleas to congress to do their job and pass new laws.
And just like we are witnessing now. Bipartisan efforts ended up falling apart.
Maybe because the broken two party system has a political football they really like kicking around and they don’t want to give it up. Probably why a certain presidential candidate is trying to snuff out the current attempt at a bipartisan solution.
Maybe just maybe Biden’s decades of experience dealing with this headache issue has him willing to make some compromises to finally get a bill done.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-republicans-warn-house-wont-get-better-immigration-deal-trump-rcna134348
“”To those who think that if President Trump wins, which I hope he does, that we can get a better deal — you won’t,” Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., told reporters Wednesday. “You got to get 60 votes in the United States Senate.”
“To my Republican friends: To get this kind of border security without granting a pathway to citizenship is really unheard of. So if you think you’re going to get a better deal next time, in ’25, if President Trump’s president, Democrats will be expecting a pathway to citizenship for that,” he said. “So to my Republican colleagues, this is a historic moment to reform the border.”
Senate Minority Whip John Thune, R-S.D., echoed Graham's view.
“The Democrats will not give us anything close to this if we have to get 60 votes in the United States Senate in a Republican majority,” Thune said. “We have a unique opportunity here. And the timing is right to do this.””
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(01-26-2024, 04:28 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: This is a bipartisan negotiated bill. What brought partisanship into it was when the cult leader decided to step in and say don’t do it. And now a bill addressing an issue just about every American agrees needs to be addressed is being smeared because they don’t want to anger a guy who isn’t even in office. Dude who lost. Is calling the shots in the Republican Party and giving out the marching orders not because of what’s best for the country, but because of what’s best for him to gain power. Do you see a problem with that?
I do.
The Republican party has become a regime party, protecting and directed by a populist leader.
As effective control lies with an un-elected leader outside the legislature,
compromise and legislation become impossible.
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