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**GMDino** · 10-23-2019, 01:42 PM

(10-23-2019, 07:57 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I read the entirety of Taylor's statement. I recommend you read it, as it is a very gripping, holistic chronological recount of the events.
You can find it here.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/bill-taylor-opening-statement-congress/index.html

And it's the definition of "damning" if it's the truth.

Page 1

Page 5

Page 9

Page 10

Page 11

Page 12

Page 13

Taylor's opening statement was that there was an explicit Quid Pro Quo. The quote from Page 12 is especially interesting because it is a recounting of Sondland telling President Zelenskyy that it was not a Quid Pro Quo, but [insert the literal definition of a Quid Pro Quo].

Page 13 is interesting as well because it details how Trump seems to think Ukraine owes America something for the assistance. Implicitly...investigations into Burisma (and, by extension, Joe/Hunter Biden) and the 2016 election?

(10-23-2019, 01:40 PM)Dill Wrote: B-b-but Laura Ingraham says Taylor is a deep-state globalist helping the Dems undo an election. He is like Romney and those RINOs who have turned on the president. How can we trust what he says?

Former AG Whitaker was on her show last night and he said that "abuse of power is not a crime" anyway. He is a lawyer and knows.

Also we aren't supposed to READ the entire thing...we are to get a summary from people who KNOW what it says. Mellow

**Dill** · 10-23-2019, 01:44 PM

(10-23-2019, 12:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'll add to this that someone tried to bring cell phones into the classified hearings and were told they cannot and were fighting about it.

These brave men are trying to show America how Trump is being tried behind closed doors without his own witnesses and lawyers.

Hannity will explain how impeachment works later.

**Dill** · 10-23-2019, 01:45 PM

(10-23-2019, 01:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Also we aren't supposed to READ the entire thing...we are to get a summary from people who KNOW what it says.

I want a summary from Bill Barr--someone who'll put national interest foremost!

**CJD** · 10-23-2019, 01:56 PM

(10-23-2019, 01:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: Also we aren't supposed to READ the entire thing...we are to get a summary from people who KNOW what it says.

Heh, I actually initially just read CNN's summary of the statement but I felt like they put forth 5 quotes that were...not that convincing. I thought "Huh, I guess this statement wasn't even that bad for Trump." But they linked the whole statement in that article, so I decided to read it myself since, you know, everyone was touting this as such a huge blow to Trump.

And man...after reading it, I have no idea why CNN chose the 5 quotes they chose.

Like, why not use the quotes I chose where the Quid Pro Quo was specifically spelled out and articulated?

These are the 5 quotes CNN chose:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/politics/bill-taylor-statement-5-explosive-lines/index.html

Quote:"...there was an irregular, informal channel of U.S. policy-making with respect to Ukraine, one which included then-Special Envoy Kurt Volker, Ambassador Sondland, Secretary of Energy Rick Perry, and as I subsequently learned, Mr. Giuliani."

Quote:"Ambassador Sondland told me that he had recommended to President Zelenskyy that he use the phrase, 'I will leave no stone unturned' with regard to 'investigations' when President Zelenskyy spoke with President Trump."

Quote:"...Ambassador Sondland told me that President Trump had told him that he wants President Zelenskyy to state publicly that Ukraine will investigate Burisma and alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. election."

Quote:"...President Trump did insist that President Zelenskyy go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016 election interference, and that President Zelenskyy should want to do this himself."

Quote:"...the push to make President Zelenskyy publicly commit to investigations of Burisma and alleged interference in the 2016 election showed how the official foreign policy of the United States was undercut by the irregular efforts led by Mr. Giuliani."

I don't understand what they were thinking when choosing these quotes. Maybe they thought simply the quotes explaining what Trump was asking for would be enough to convince people...I disagree completely. The problem isn't only that Trump asked Zelenskyy to investigate or commit to investigating these things. It was also that Trump was withholding the money, and that Ukraine knew this! That's the relevance of this testimony. We already ***** know Trump was asking for investigations. That is in the transcript of the call. What we need and what could shift opinion is the fact that Trump did, in fact, withhold the money on those conditions. The Quid Pro Quo.

And the fact that all 5 quotes CNN chose to highlight completely ignore the QPQ portion of the testimony is mind blowing to me.

I am more and more hesitant to rely on CNN for news not because they are fake news, but because they appear to be incompetent news. They read that statement and somehow missed the actual important information. I feel my quotes more accurately portray the important information of that testimony.

**GMDino** · 10-23-2019, 03:07 PM

The Republicans (who are breaking the law) are still there "negotiating" on what will happen to them.

BREAKING: I led over 30 of my colleagues into the SCIF where Adam Schiff is holding secret impeachment depositions. Still inside - more details to come. https://t.co/fHhqkZ6x3Z
— Rep. Matt Gaetz (@RepMattGaetz) October 23, 2019

**Au165** · 10-23-2019, 03:14 PM

(10-23-2019, 03:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: The Republicans (who are breaking the law) are still there "negotiating" on what will happen to them.

BREAKING: I led over 30 of my colleagues into the SCIF where Adam Schiff is holding secret impeachment depositions. Still inside - more details to come. https://t.co/fHhqkZ6x3Z
— Rep. Matt Gaetz (@RepMattGaetz) October 23, 2019

They should each be censured. If there were laws broken they should be arrested by capitol police.

Apparently most the people pulling this stunt were at the White House Tuesday meeting with Trump. I can only assume he directed them to "fight back" which to me is another count of obstruction of justice.

**BmorePat87** · 10-23-2019, 03:22 PM

Over 45 Republicans (about 25% of the House GOP) are members of the 3 committees conducting the impeachment inquiry and have access to the depositions and testimonies. They have the same exact time to question witnesses as Democrats do. The Republican Party is saying "We cannot deny the allegations so we must lie about the proceedings."

I think this is the best response:

“It’s a bunch of Freedom Caucus members having pizza around a conference table pretending to be brave,” added Rep. Tom Malinowski (D-N.J.), referring to the hard-line conservative group. “All they basically did here was to storm a castle that they already occupied.”

One Republican that is a part of the process admitted it was legal and standard procedure, he just doesn't think it should have been done this way.

“This may be within House rules. That’s not the question. The question is, is it a good idea to impeach the president in secret hearings?” Stewart said. “This may very well be within Chairman Schiff’s and Nancy Pelosi’s authority to do this. I think it’s a bad idea.”

**BmorePat87** · 10-23-2019, 03:30 PM

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/23/impeachment-republicans-trump-055688

Really solid article

**Belsnickel** · 10-23-2019, 04:56 PM

(10-23-2019, 03:30 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/23/impeachment-republicans-trump-055688

Really solid article

They really should censure those folks. This is something I am saying as a process person, though. These procedures and rules are in place for a reason and violating them in an effort to make a bad faith argument is asinine.

**GMDino** · 10-23-2019, 05:24 PM

I'm sure this will shore up the base and keep the Senate from voting for impeachment.

**BmorePat87** · 10-23-2019, 06:45 PM

(10-23-2019, 04:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They really should censure those folks. This is something I am saying as a process person, though. These procedures and rules are in place for a reason and violating them in an effort to make a bad faith argument is asinine.

Even Lindsay Graham called them "nuts" for doing it.

**BmorePat87** · 10-23-2019, 06:46 PM

(10-23-2019, 05:24 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm sure this will shore up the base and keep the Senate from voting for impeachment.

Trump tweeted that there couldn't have been quid pro quo because the Ukrainians didn't know the aid was being withheld... and then the AP revealed today that the Ukrainian president knew as early as April that Trump wanted the investigation and NYT revealed that the Ukrainian govt found out in early August that the aid was being withheld because of the investigation.

fredtoast · 10-23-2019, 07:19 PM

(10-23-2019, 04:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They really should censure those folks. This is something I am saying as a process person, though. These procedures and rules are in place for a reason and violating them in an effort to make a bad faith argument is asinine.

Can't believe the completely false narrative they are trying to spin.

Complaining that this investigation violates due process because it is secret is like saying a grand jury investigation violates due process because it is secret.

This is not a trial. It is an investigation. They have to keep these type of investigations secret so that future witnesses will not hear the testimony of current witnesses. That is one of the main reasons grand juries proceedings are secret.

fredtoast · 10-23-2019, 07:21 PM

(10-23-2019, 06:46 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump tweeted that there couldn't have been quid pro quo because the Ukrainians didn't know the aid was being withheld... and then the AP revealed today that the Ukrainian president knew as early as April that Trump wanted the investigation and NYT revealed that the Ukrainian govt found out in early August that the aid was being withheld because of the investigation.

Can't wait to hear the recording of the actual phone call. Bet it is much different from the "transcript". It was so bad that they knew right away they had to hide it.

***bfine32*** · 10-23-2019, 07:36 PM

(10-23-2019, 03:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: They should each be censured. If there were laws broken they should be arrested by capitol police.

Apparently most the people pulling this stunt were at the White House Tuesday meeting with Trump. I can only assume he directed them to "fight back" which to me is another count of obstruction of justice.

I'm always amused when the Politicians decry "Do it in public for the American People". They are some of the shadiest folks alive, none of them want true transparency and I don't blame them.

Trump has brought reality TV to Capitol Hill and there is no shortage of characters.

**BmorePat87** · 10-23-2019, 08:25 PM

(10-23-2019, 06:45 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Even Lindsay Graham called them "nuts" for doing it.

LOL, the soulless one was scolded by his master. He has since walked back this comment and called it a "peaceful protest".

**Belsnickel** · 10-23-2019, 08:28 PM

(10-23-2019, 07:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm always amused when the Politicians decry "Do it in public for the American People". They are some of the shadiest folks alive, none of them want true transparency and I don't blame them.

Trump has brought reality TV to Capitol Hill and there is no shortage of characters.

Government in the sunshine is a grand ideal, and it has its time and its place. But I can tell you right now that if the framers of our constitution hadn't been sequestered away in private proceedings for months we never would have ended up with the document we have. There are things that are best done behind closed doors, especially these days when open hearings are often stage shows rather than anything that actually gets something done. This is why we have a representative democracy.

**Belsnickel** · 10-23-2019, 08:30 PM

(10-23-2019, 07:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Can't believe the completely false narrative they are trying to spin.

Complaining that this investigation violates due process because it is secret is like saying a grand jury investigation violates due process because it is secret.

This is not a trial. It is an investigation. They have to keep these type of investigations secret so that future witnesses will not hear the testimony of current witnesses. That is one of the main reasons grand juries proceedings are secret.

Not only this, but this isn't a criminal procedure. We like to use the grand jury analogy because, well, that's what it is most akin to, but this is a purely political process. There is literally no right to due process in these proceedings.

**Belsnickel** · 10-23-2019, 08:30 PM

(10-23-2019, 08:25 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: LOL, the soulless one was scolded by his master. He has since walked back this comment and called it a "peaceful protest".

He is a whipped dog.

**Belsnickel** · 10-23-2019, 08:43 PM

So, I just saw this: Trump administration sought billions of dollars in cuts to programs aimed at fighting corruption in Ukraine and elsewhere

What was that about the investigations being about fighting corruption?

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