White Privilege?

[jj22]

(07-06-2018, 03:59 PM)Beaker Wrote: Racism is simply favoring one race over another based upon skin color. It has nothing to do with majority.

racism


[rey-siz-uh m]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
   

"Right to dominate others" - A minority race can never dominate a majority race (slavery, oppression).
"Fostering such doctrine" - "Discrimination"- the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. - A minority race can't discriminate against a majority race. They don't have the power.
3. Okay, but that's just hate that's a lot different then points 1 and 2. Which is where I draw the line of "racist/racism".

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If one group controls a disproportionate amount of the power and wealth it makes a big difference.  It is a privilege to belong to that race because they have the control and power to help (or hurt) you more.

Can there not be minority racists? And if they are bosses or store owners or in some other position of advantage, can they not deny you something also?

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: "Right to dominate others" - A minority race can never dominate a majority race (slavery, oppression).
"Fostering such doctrine" - "Discrimination"- the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. - A minority race can't discriminate against a majority race. 
3. Okay, but that's just hate that's a lot different then points 1 and 2.

A minority can certainly discriminate against a majority race. Happens all the time. And if they give their own people some type of advantage based solely upon skin color, then that person is receiving a privilege. But its still racism at its root.

[jj22]

(07-06-2018, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I believe sports today are pretty much a true meritocracy.  Black QBs have become so common I don't even think of their race anymore.

I agree with you on this.

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2018, 04:12 PM)Beaker Wrote: What if the black boss fails to promote a white subordinate because he doesn't like white people? I would argue that's both racism and oppression. And if he promotes a less qualified black subordinate over the more qualified white subordinate, then that would be privilege. 

That example of privilege was obtained due to a person who was racist. That's why it is my opinion that terms like white privilege are covered under the umbrella of racism and are therefore not needed. 

When you look at society as a whole white people control a disproportionate amount of wealth and power.  Exceptions to the general rule do not change the general rule.  Since a disproportionate amount of CEOs and upper management are white it is a privilege to be white.

We have already been over this before in another thread.  I am not going to start repeating all of that.

You claim we don't need the term "white privilege" because it is covered under racism, but then you turn around and claim it does not exist.  Those are two different arguments.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-06-2018, 04:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: "Right to dominate others" - A minority race can never dominate a majority race (slavery, oppression).
"Fostering such doctrine" - "Discrimination"- the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. - A minority race can't discriminate against a majority race. They don't have the power.
3. Okay, but that's just hate that's a lot different then points 1 and 2. Which is where I draw the line of "racist/racism".

You may want to ask some South Africans about that.

[jj22]

(07-06-2018, 04:18 PM)Beaker Wrote: A minority can certainly discriminate against a majority race. Happens all the time. And if they give their own people some type of advantage based solely upon skin color, then that person is receiving a privilege. But its still racism at its root.

Corporate America averages 70-30 White to black ratio. Just look around.

Sure there are some majority all black companies I suppose, and if that's the case then yes that would be an example of a Minority (even if they are the majority in that example) being racist. But note, they are the "majority" race in that example. It's not a majority white company with a couple black employees holding white people/employees down because of their race. I disagree with you that doesn't happen all the time if at all.

[Bengalzona]

I have a belief that all (or practically all) people have some amount of racism and prejudice inside them. It is part of human nature to be attracted to things that appear similar in some ways and to distrust things that appear dissimilar in some ways. While these trends may be deep-rooted (genetic shadows from the distant past), they are usually small preferences that most of us overcome to successfully interact in a plural society.

Having a preference is one thing. Using the preference to fuel a bias against another group is generally the starting point of what we refer to as racist or prejudicial behavior today. It is the difference between saying "I like to hang around that group" and "I like to hang around that group and that other group is really stupid." If you feel comfortable with one group, that isn't necessarily a problem. If you feel comfortable with one group and also belittle one or more other groups, that is a problem.

Taking it a step further, if you feel comfortable with one group and extol that group's virtues, you tread a thin path. You may be tacitly judging that group to be superior to other groups in the virtues you extol. Instead of saying, "I feel comfortable with this group because I found this (virtue) there." (meaning that virtue may be found among other groups, you just happened to find it there), you may be saying, "This group is great because it has this virtue." (tacitly implying that other groups do not have that virtue). It works similarly with vices. This may be one of the most common forms of prejudice today because it is so subtle.

Privilege is similar. With privilege, a person is so focused upon their own issues and virtues and the issues of virtues of the group they identify with, that they have trouble accepting that members of other groups may have some different circumstances and issues. A poor white person may have trouble recognizing and accepting the terms of why a rich black person committed embezzlement ("He already had all the money in the world!!!"). Likewise, a rich white person may have trouble recognizing and accepting the terms of why a poor black person would rob a convenient store ("Why didn't he just obey the laws of society and get a job at the store if he was so desperate!").

Outside of law offices and courtrooms, we don't discuss mitigating circumstances too much. This is also our nature: we like to make quick judgments on things. Considering more information slows things down proportionally. I don't necessarily consider this to be a crime or racist. I do it sometimes. But I do think it is something we should all be made aware of.

We aren't the best judges.

[fredtoast]

(07-06-2018, 04:16 PM)Beaker Wrote: Can there not be minority racists? And if they are bosses or store owners or in some other position of advantage, can they not deny you something also?

(07-06-2018, 04:18 PM)Beaker Wrote: A minority can certainly discriminate against a majority race. Happens all the time. And if they give their own people some type of advantage based solely upon skin color, then that person is receiving a privilege. But its still racism at its root.

Yes, both races can favor their own, but when one race controls a disproportionate amount of the wealth and power it is a privilege to belong to that race.

A black man would have been more likely to help another black man in the Jim Crow south, but don't you agree that it was a privilege to be white back then?

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We have already been over this before in another thread.  I am not going to start repeating all of that.

You already have...3 times so far.

Bottom line is this. I have already stated in each post that this is my opinion. I think you, me and jj all agree that racism exists and none of us like it. I simply do not think we need to exacerbate and foster further separation among races with terms that are already covered.

I think if you are going to claim that white privilege exists, you also have to concede that other types of privilege exist. And all those types of privilege are given based upon the person giving them being racist...no matter their color.

Racism can exist independently of wealth and power. 

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:21 PM)jj22 Wrote: Corporate America averages 70-30 White to black ratio. Just look around.

Sure there are some majority all black companies I suppose, and if that's the case then yes that would be an example of a Minority (even if they are the majority in that example) being racist. But note, they are the "majority" race in that example. It's not a majority white company with a couple black employees holding white people/employees down because of their race. I disagree with you that doesn't happen all the time if at all.

Can there not be a racist black boss in a majority white corporation who gives advantages (like promotions or favorable job assignments) to people based upon their skin color? Racism has nothing to do with what race is the majority. 

[jj22]

Then would it be a majority white corporation then? If your example is true, he's certainly not doing a good job at being racist. And I doubt he'd get away with it given the majority of people he would be oppressing. I don't think they'd stand for that in real life.

But if it's an all black company then yes it's possible within that bubble (he'd be somewhat protected by the majority, so who will the lone white person run to for help to side with them), but that's within that bubble where blacks are a majority, that's not a realistic generalization of society.

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Then would it be a majority white corporation then? 

Yes. I didnt say he was in charge of hiring and trying to orchestrate a takeover. He could just be a middle level boss favoring the few others of his own race within the company.

[GMDino]

(07-06-2018, 04:30 PM)Beaker Wrote: Can there not be a racist black boss in a majority white corporation who gives advantages (like promotions or favorable job assignments) to people based upon their skin color? Racism has nothing to do with what race is the majority. 

There "can be" a lot of things.

There are exceptions....tere our outliers.

And then there is the majority of what happens.

[Dill]

(07-06-2018, 03:59 PM)Beaker Wrote: Racism is simply favoring one race over another based upon skin color. It has nothing to do with majority.

racism


[rey-siz-uh m]
ExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
   

I would add that there is a biological/anthropological definition of "race" assumed by all three senses of "racism" in the above definition.

I don't think discrimination based simply upon skin color is racism.  

[Dill]

Anyone discussing "White Privilege" ever read Peggy Macintosh's "White Privilege: Unpacking the invisible Knapsack"? This excerpt dates from the 1989 version.
https://nationalseedproject.org/white-privilege-unpacking-the-invisible-knapsack
As a feminist, she noticed that while men often recognized that women were disadvantaged, they nevertheless denied, or had great difficulty realizing, how those disadvantages were at the same time advantages for men.

The kernel of her White Privilege argument is that as a feminist arguing against male privilege, black feminists helped her realize that, with white males, she also shared a privilege, owing to her whiteness. She comes to terms with by listing 25 hitherto unnoticed advantages given her by her skin color.

I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world’s majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to “the person in charge,” I will be facing a person of my race.
If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven’t been singled out because of my race.
I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children’s magazines featuring people of my race.
I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.
I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.
I can choose public accommodations without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.
I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.
I can choose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh” color and have them more less match my skin.

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 04:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: There "can be" a lot of things.

There are exceptions....tere our outliers.

And then there is the majority of what happens.

Yet all of it is still relevant.

[GMDino]

(07-06-2018, 07:35 PM)Beaker Wrote: Yet all of it is still relevant.

Aye...but is something like South Africa enough to say there is no white privilege?

Is one, racist, black boss evidence that there is no white privilege?

I'd say no more than one person surviving a lightning strike is proof that lightening doesn't kill people.

[mallorian69]

(07-06-2018, 04:15 PM)jj22 Wrote: "Right to dominate others" - A minority race can never dominate a majority race (slavery, oppression).
"Fostering such doctrine" - "Discrimination"- the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex. - A minority race can't discriminate against a majority race. They don't have the power.
3. Okay, but that's just hate that's a lot different then points 1 and 2. Which is where I draw the line of "racist/racism".

Never say never. Until not too long ago 10% of the population of South Africa oppressed the other 90%. 

During Europe's feudal period a very small number of nobels, that were surrounded in wealth, ruled over the vast majority of the population who toiled in squallar to provide that wealth.

Same can be said about feudal Japan or India's caste system or any number of cultures throughout history. 

On a side note I'm still waiting for my white privilege to kick in as I am currently working 2 jobs just to keep the lights on and will be starting a 3rd in September to be able to provide Christmas gifts for my family. Did I miss the signup period to get this white privilege stuff or something?

[Beaker]

(07-06-2018, 10:46 PM)GMDino Wrote: Is one, racist, black boss evidence that there is no white privilege?

Its evidence that there is other types of privilege also. And all cases of privilege can be traced to racism. So why add another term to exacerbate the problem and further separate the races?