White Supremecists Slay 49 in NZ Mosques

[Belsnickel]

(03-19-2019, 10:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It is on the rise, but the number are still extremely low.  As for lowest in the US, they didn't give us something to compare it to.  Even so, at its worst right wing extremists killed 22 people in a year in the US.  While this is of no solace to those killed or their loved ones, that's an incredibly low number.  The same year right wing extremists killed 22 people, 2015, over thirty people were killed by dogs.


Again, I must stress, I'm not saying right wing extremism is a non-issue or something we should ignore.  However, the raw numbers rather suggest it's nothing close to the problem we're being told it is.

The GAO found that in the post-9/11 United States, 73% of violent extremism was carried out by right-wing extremists. That is how we know it is the most prevalent form of extremism in the US. That was the figure in 2017, which used numbers to the end of 2016. With right-wing extremism on the rise, it would be interesting to see if that percentage has changed or stayed the same.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-20-2019, 08:20 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The GAO found that in the post-9/11 United States, 73% of violent extremism was carried out by right-wing extremists. That is how we know it is the most prevalent form of extremism in the US. That was the figure in 2017, which used numbers to the end of 2016. With right-wing extremism on the rise, it would be interesting to see if that percentage has changed or stayed the same.

I always find it interesting when people use 09/12/2001 as their starting date for measuring violent extremism.  In any event, I would agree it is on the rise and should be monitored and dealt with accordingly.  It should also be put into perspective.  It is not remotely the problem that the talking heads are shouting about.  


Also, I don't think anyone could argue that this problem, whatever the scope, is being ignored by law enforcement.

[Belsnickel]

(03-20-2019, 08:49 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I always find it interesting when people use 09/12/2001 as their starting date for measuring violent extremism.  In any event, I would agree it is on the rise and should be monitored and dealt with accordingly.  It should also be put into perspective.  It is not remotely the problem that the talking heads are shouting about.  


Also, I don't think anyone could argue that this problem, whatever the scope, is being ignored by law enforcement.

Yeah, that was where the GAO report started. I get why they do it, but it's a terrible time frame. The Daily Caller found that 92% of ideologically motivated homicide incidents from 2007-2016 were conducted by right-wing extremists, so at least they just used a 10 year period.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-20-2019, 08:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that was where the GAO report started. I get why they do it, but it's a terrible time frame.

Yes, they do it to distort the numbers.

Quote: The Daily Caller found that 92% of ideologically motivated homicide incidents from 2007-2016 were conducted by right-wing extremists, so at least they just used a 10 year period.

Here's the thing though, 92% of what number?  If that number is 50k over ten years then alarm bells should be ringing.  If it's 92% of 500 over a decade then my original point stands, this isn't the problem we're being told it is.  A problem, yes, but not the national emergency it's being portrayed as.

[Belsnickel]

(03-20-2019, 10:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, they do it to distort the numbers.

Yes and no. 9/11 was an outlier, and an extreme one at that. Including it in the data set would do more to distort the numbers than starting it after. However, it's not a standard time frame for analysis. Looking at yearly, 5-year, and 10-year numbers is good for looking at trends. Using 9/11 as a mark like that is illogical.

(03-20-2019, 10:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Here's the thing though, 92% of what number?  If that number is 50k over ten years then alarm bells should be ringing.  If it's 92% of 500 over a decade then my original point stands, this isn't the problem we're being told it is.  A problem, yes, but not the national emergency it's being portrayed as.

But now we get into my overall point. In the US, right-wing extremism is the larger threat within our borders versus other forms of it. Since there is a global rise in right-wing extremist violence, which is also the case here, then it is the larger threat. Honestly, focusing on these events is much like focusing on mass shootings to talk about gun control. That's not how most firearm deaths occur, and right-wing extremism (or extremism of any ideological sort) isn't how most homicides occur. But these are the things that grab headlines so they get the attention.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-20-2019, 11:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yes and no. 9/11 was an outlier, and an extreme one at that. Including it in the data set would do more to distort the numbers than starting it after. However, it's not a standard time frame for analysis. Looking at yearly, 5-year, and 10-year numbers is good for looking at trends. Using 9/11 as a mark like that is illogical.

Sure, but using that logic the Christchurch shooting was an outlier and should be discounted as well.  I do agree that non-arbitrary time frames produce much better data.

Quote:But now we get into my overall point. In the US, right-wing extremism is the larger threat within our borders versus other forms of it. Since there is a global rise in right-wing extremist violence, which is also the case here, then it is the larger threat. Honestly, focusing on these events is much like focusing on mass shootings to talk about gun control. That's not how most firearm deaths occur, and right-wing extremism (or extremism of any ideological sort) isn't how most homicides occur. But these are the things that grab headlines so they get the attention.

Larger threat in comparison to what?  If you're referring to Islamic extremism, then in the United States I would agree with you.  Even so, there have been several mass casualty events since 9/11 perpetrated by Islamic extremists.  If you are talking about Islamic extremism than you couldn't be more wrong when you say that globally right-wing extremism is the bigger threat.  But, once again, I have to ask, when they say 92% of ideologically motivated homicides are committed by extreme right wingers I want to know, 92% of what number?  Whenever important data like that is omitted it should send up an immediate red flag as it is often omitted because it doesn't fit the portrayed narrative.  Again, it's certainly a problem, and it does not appear to be a problem that law enforcement is ignoring.  It just doesn't appear to be anything close to the problem that we're being told it is.

[Matt_Crimson]

(03-18-2019, 07:56 PM)Dill Wrote: Where we do not agree:

First, you say that if “Whites are increasingly becoming a minority and the world as a whole is becoming increasingly more moral. This is not a great recipe for white supremacy.” I say you have this exactly backwards. The message of white supremacy appeals precisely to white people in places where they feel their numbers and/or privilege is challenged and diminished by immigration.  As a result of this appeal, the world is not becoming “more moral” (by non-supremacist definitions).  Rather, we see countries in Central Europe, like Poland and Hungary, moving from liberal to illiberal democracy—following the footsteps of Russia. In Germany is not in danger yet, but the first far right party to enter the Bundestag since the end of WWII won 94 of 598 seats in the 2017 election.  Similar danger in France and Italy. This turn to the right involves tens of millions of European voters.  Add to this the increasing turn to illiberal government outside Europe (though not motivated by white supremacy), and this represents to me a more serious Global danger than terrorism perpetrated by Islamists, mostly against other Muslims in Africa and the Middle East.

I think we are actually in agreement here, at least in part. When I said, “Whites are increasingly becoming a minority and the world as a whole is becoming increasingly more moral. This is not a great recipe for white supremacy.”  the point I was making is that it is not a good recipe for white supremacy to survive. I actually agree with what you said here about how the threat to white identity is in fact feeding into white supremacy and I alluded to this in my previous post when I said, "What we are really seeing with white supremacy today are its last ditch efforts to prevent the extinction of white identity that is being threatened by the overwhelming push of cultural diversity and moralistic values."

So to be clear, my point wasn't that it isn't a good recipe for white supremacy to find inspiration. Rather, my point was that although white supremacy is being "inspired" or is "rising" due to diminishing white identity, I believe that the cultural and moral changes that are happening is killing off white supremacy more than it is helping it to survive, therefore it is "not a good recipe".

Quote:Second, in the US, where there are many more white people worried about impending minority status than there are Muslims, the threat of white supremacist terrorism is greater.  The last five years have shown a rise in the number of hate crimes, according to sources like the FBI and the Southern Poverty law Center. 

Okay so this is definitely where I say we disagree. I have an issue with what you said for a couple of reasons.

1) The FBI and SPLC have said there has been a rise in the number of reported hate crimes, but we don't know how many of these "hate crimes" are actually related to white supremacy.

2) There is no information given that tells us about how many of these reported "hate crimes" actually even took place. In fact, I can counter argue that the number of reported hate crimes can't be trusted as concrete evidence that hate crimes are actually "rising" because there has been a large number of hoaxes being reported.

Quote:An Israeli-American man has been sentenced to 10 years in prison in Israel for making about 2,000 hoax bomb threats that forced evacuations of US Jewish community centres and forced planes to make emergency landings.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-23/us-israeli-man-sentenced-in-israel-over-global-bomb-threats/10547198

Transgender gay-rights activist set own home on fire in hate-crime hoax, police say
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/26/nikki-joly-transgender-gay-rights-activist-set-own/

‘White Supremacist accused of shooting black girl to death by the public and the media. Turns out the shooter was a black man."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/authorities-interviewing-persons-interest-murder-year-jazmine-barnes/story?id=60187049
https://www.click2houston.com/news/someone-was-falsely-accused--barnes-family-regrets-hate-crime-cries

Black college lacrosse player, 21, is arrested for spraying N-word and swastika graffiti targeting HIMSELF and other minority students in two incidents that terrorized the campus
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6450101/Black-college-lacrosse-player-arrested-racist-N-word-swastika-graffiti.html?ITO=applenews

Black suspect in swastika graffiti vandalism arrested
https://www.thetodaypress.com/2018/11/27/suspect-in-swastika-graffiti-vandalism-arrested/

For second time in two years, racist slur at Kansas State was a hoax, police say
https://www.kansas.com/news/local/education/article221373355.html

Student busted for making anti-LGBT threats against herself
https://nypost.com/2018/10/10/student-busted-for-making-anti-lgbt-threats-against-herself/

Woman, 19, who accused four Trump-supporting teens of slashing her tires and leaving a note that said 'Go home' on her car is charged for 'fabricating the story'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6173315/New-York-woman-arrested-fabricating-story-alleging-hate-crime-four-Trump-supporting-teens.html

Waiter who got customer barred for ‘we don’t tip terrorist’ message ‘fabricated the entire story’
https://www.yahoo.com/news/waiter-got-customer-barred-don-111840078.html

Girl accused of falsely reporting hate crime in Prince William County
https://pilotonline.com/news/nation-world/virginia/article_bc984aa4-3cc2-11e8-adc4-a3dda1af6b30.html

Air Force Academy cadet wrote racial slur outside his own dorm room
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2017/11/08/air-force-academy-cadet-wrote-racial-slur-outside-his-own-dorm-room/

Black man admits putting racist graffiti on his own car as a prank
https://nypost.com/2017/11/07/black-man-admits-to-putting-racist-graffiti-on-his-own-car/

Black man admits spray-painting racist graffiti, setting fire at south KC church to try and trick police
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article217279680.html

White man sets his family's own vehicles on fire and paints racist words on their house garage
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2016/12/23/denton-man-set-vehicles-ablaze-painted-racial-slur-garage-door-wife-says

Black man who is an ex student charged with spraying racist graffiti around the school
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2017/10/23/suspect-arraigned-racially-offensive-graffiti-case-eastern-michigan-last-year/791811001/

Church's own organ player admits to racist and homophobic graffiti spray painted on the church
https://fox59.com/2017/05/03/police-organist-spray-painted-heil-trump-swastika-gay-slur-on-brown-county-church/

And this isn't even all of them. It's just some of them.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying this means all or even a majority of the reported hate crimes aren't real. What I am saying is that just because someone reports a hate crime doesn't make the hate crime real. Secondly, just because a hate crime is reported doesn't mean that the hate crime is automatically white supremacist in nature. 

We need to be objective about this and treat every case individually to determine what is representative of white supremacy rising and what isn't. I appreciate you noting the statistics of reported hate crimes, but I don't see how any of that proves that white supremacy is "rising" in a way that makes it more or as much of a threat to the US as Islamic extremism.

Quote:While Islamist terrorism worldwide (including the US) has dropped rather precipitously over the last three years, right wing terrorism has taken a sharp upturn in the U.S. https://qz.com/1355874/terrorism-is-surging-in-the-us-fueled-by-right-wing-extremists/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/05/politics/global-terrorism-index-2018/index.html

So it's not a matter of 500 guys sitting on a couch or some such. It is matter of statistical occurrence--e.g., 37 right wing terrorist attacks in 2017 vs. 7 from Islamists. 

Okay, so a couple things I need to address here.

1) "Islamic terrorism is dropping world wide".

Would you say that you find that surprising? Because I honestly don't. 

ISIS (and its affiliates) have been the premier terror group over the last 4-5 years and has been committing a vast amount of terror throughout the world that caused a spike in global terror as a whole. Who has the US and other countries been mainly targeting and obliterating the last 3 years? ISIS.

So, I don't find it all that surprising that Islamic terrorism around the world has been dropping considering the world has been destroying the biggest perpetrators of it. The fact that global Islamic terror is declining doesn't mean that Islamic extremism is becoming less of an issue because Islamic extremism is dying. The decline in Islamic extremism is actually happening because we have been actively destroying it at a dramatically faster pace than any other extremist ideology out there, including white supremacy. Which leads me to the next point.


2) Right wing terrorism has taken a sharp upturn in the U.S. 

Sure. Lets say right wing terrorism has taken a sharp upturn in the U.S. 

What does that mean? Are you saying that this "upturn" proves that white supremacy is more dangerous than Islamic extremism? Again, I have to disagree here.

What I find interesting about the statistical argument about how there have been more attacks by white supremacists in the US than Islamic extremists is that the argument completely ignores the fact that Islamic extremists have killed more people in the US than white extremists from the studies done from 2001 to 2017, but with fewer attacks and this is excluding the 9/11 terror attacks which would make the Islamic extremist numbers catastrophically higher.

The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that between Sept 12, 2001 - December 31st 2016 (They excluded Sept 11th to make the numbers a little more comparable), there had been 85 terrorist attacks committed by violent extremists. 

Of the 85 attacks, 62 were from far-right extremists and 23 were from Islamic extremists.

These 85 attacks resulted in 225 total deaths. 

Out of the 225 deaths, 106 deaths were attributed to white extremists and 119 deaths were attributed to Islamic extremists.

Now, if you take the statistics from 2017 and include them in these numbers the results become....

129 total terror attacks - 99 attributed to white extremists and 30 attributed to Islamic extremists.
253 total deaths - 126 deaths for white extremists and 127 for Islamic extremists.

What's important about this? Well a couple of things.

Firstly, while the statistics may show that white supremacists are on average committing more attacks, Islamic extremists are actually killing more people per attack.

Secondly, because Islamic extremists are causing more deaths per attack, this means that they are actually more efficient with the terrorism they are causing and are therefore more destructive. If you were to flip the numbers around and say that Islamic extremists committed 99 terrorist attacks and white extremists committed only 30, I believe the number of deaths caused by Islamic extremists would be catastrophically higher than deaths caused by white extremists because the statistics currently show that Islamic extremists have been more efficient with there attacks.

I believe people are having the wrong conversation. This shouldn't be about who is causing more attacks. It should be about who is actually more destructive with their attacks. This kind of goes back to my whole comparison argument and why I have such a problem with them. Not all terrorist attacks are equal.

White supremacists stabbing 20 people in 15 separate attacks is not really all that comparable to Islamic extremists  flying 2 planes into the World Trade Center and murdering 3000 US citizens. The white supremacists may have committed more attacks, but their attacks were far less destructive per attack.They both may be terrorist attacks, but they tell very different stories about how dangerous one ideology is over the other. It tells a story about how even though we are actively and continually destroying Islamic extremism at a far greater rate than we are targeting white extremists (and the left has even conceded to this point of more targeting going towards Islamic extremism from which part of the argument is based upon), Islamic extremism continues to prosper and create far more destruction and contribute to the instability of the world as a whole far greater than white extremism has in the last  20, 10, 5, years....

Don't you find it a little strange that the media (and a lot of people in general) have been complaining that we don't take the threat of white supremacy seriously enough and that we need to contribute as many resources to fighting it that we're contributing to fighting radical Islamic terror, but then go on to point out that white supremacy is showing that it is more of a problem with increasing attacks over the years?

It's as if they've basically answered their own question. White supremacy is experiencing more successful attacks because they are being investigated and targeted less often than Islamic extremism which by comparison is having more resources being poured into stopping it. 

So, I'd like to go back and answer a questioned you posed to me in an earlier post. I wasn't ignoring it, I just knew I'd eventually come back to it, and so here we are. Your question was....

Quote:If we are speaking of the US, do you see grounds for fearing Islamists more than White supremacists? 

Yes. My answer is above.

[Belsnickel]

(03-20-2019, 11:38 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I think we are actually in agreement here, at least in part. When I said, “Whites are increasingly becoming a minority and the world as a whole is becoming increasingly more moral. This is not a great recipe for white supremacy.”  the point I was making is that it is not a good recipe for white supremacy to survive. I actually agree with what you said here about how the threat to white identity is in fact feeding into white supremacy and I alluded to this in my previous post when I said, "What we are really seeing with white supremacy today are its last ditch efforts to prevent the extinction of white identity that is being threatened by the overwhelming push of cultural diversity and moralistic values."

What I find myself being reminded of with this post is some of the conversations I have seen surrounding the rise in white supremacy. The idea some people have come up with is that this is the death throws of it. This sharp increase in activity is a final "hurrah" if you will. I really wish I could remember the pieces I read on this, but it's been a year or more since I read them. It definitely makes a lot of sense, though, when you really think about it.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-20-2019, 11:43 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: What I find myself being reminded of with this post is some of the conversations I have seen surrounding the rise in white supremacy. The idea some people have come up with is that this is the death throws of it. This sharp increase in activity is a final "hurrah" if you will. I really wish I could remember the pieces I read on this, but it's been a year or more since I read them. It definitely makes a lot of sense, though, when you really think about it.

Of course it is.  50 years ago you had how many KKK marching in Washington?  Now it seems the majority of these people are fringe.  Most racists are paper tigers, and wouldn't have the balls to utter a racial word in front of a black person.  (Except for the guy in the Eddie Murphy bit when the black guy cuts in line).  White supremacy is a losing game in most of the country.  Put something on social media today and lose your job tomorrow.   

[*bfine32*]

Are folks suggesting WS is more prevalent now than in the past? Gotta call BS on that. I remember as a kid at Kings Island biker dude was wearing a shirt that said "God made Hondas to keep n-words off Harleys" and no one said a word. Dude wouldn't even make it to the parking tram today

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk

[*michaelsean*]

(03-20-2019, 01:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Are folks suggesting WS is more prevalent now than in the past? Gotta call BS on that. I remember as a kid at Kings Island biker dude was wearing a shirt that said "God made Hondas to keep n-words off Harleys" and no one said a word. Dude wouldn't even make it to the parking tram today

Sent from my LM-Q710(FGN) using Tapatalk

Well Kings Island does draw more that its fair share of critters.  Even today.  I can't count the number of fat women in jean shorts and bikini tops I've seen there.  And they are always with some skinny dude with black jeans and a black t-shirt.  

[Matt_Crimson]

(03-18-2019, 09:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You don't come around here much do you? 

I have phases. Sometimes I'm here for like three months and then ill be gone for like seven.

(03-18-2019, 10:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Parts of your post are clearly about the entire world, but then you make a lot of comments about the United States and Donald Trump.

So just to be clear, are you claiming that violent acts by white supremacists in the United States are declining?  And are you claiming that there are more violent acts committed by Muslim extremists in the United States than white supremacists?  If so what is the source for this claim?

No.

I'm questioning the significance of this "rise in white supremacy",

It seems to me like people are using this "rise" as an argument that there is some huge uprising of white supremacy taking place and I just don't believe that's the case. 

[Dill]

(03-20-2019, 11:38 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Okay so this is definitely where I say we disagree. I have an issue with what you said for a couple of reasons.

1) The FBI and SPLC have said there has been a rise in the number of reported hate crimes, but we don't know how many of these "hate crimes" are actually related to white supremacy.

2) There is no information given that tells us about how many of these reported "hate crimes" actually even took place. In fact, I can counter argue that the number of reported hate crimes can't be trusted as concrete evidence that hate crimes are actually "rising" because there has been a large number of hoaxes being reported.

Yow that’s a long post!   The reasoning is generally pretty good. I will respond by taking up where we don’t agree—

First, regarding the evaluation of statistics—I don’t think the FBI and SPLC go by newspaper reports in counting reported hate crimes, and so far as I know, they don’t include fakes.  So if  black man sprays hate graffiti on his own car, that is eventually reported as a crime (of false reporting), but not as a hate crime.

You are correct also that all hate crimes are not white supremacist in nature.  But most reputable databases disaggregate such crimes in ways that offer clues as to perp and motivation.

The FBI’s states are compiled from cooperating law enforcement agencies. In 2017 (I think the last year for which we have complete stats) out of 4,832 “single-bias” hate crimes based upon race, only 17.5 stemmed from anti-white bias. The rest are against African-American (48.8 percent) and other racial/ethnic groups.  Of the 1,679 reported hate crimes based upon religious motivation, 58.1 percent were anti-Jewish and 18.7 anti-Muslim. https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/incidents-and-offenses.   

Yet, there is reason for concern about these FBI stats, not because of false positives, but because of under- or mis-reporting. Oddly, the woman killed when a Neo-Nazi plowed a car into a crowd of protestors at Charlottesville is NOT reported as a hate crime—though an instance of white supremacist violence. Svrivas Kuchibota was killed in Olathe, Kansas, on Feb. 22,2017, by a guy who was convicted of a hate crime—though the incident still doesn’t make it into the FBI database https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/14/opinions/fbi-hate-crimes-data-whats-missing-berry-wiggins/index.html 

The federal data, as aggregated by the Arab American Institute and also the Anti-Defamation League, reveal that nearly 100 jurisdictions representing at least 100,000 people reported zero hate crimes in 2017. The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, which has reported as many as 73 incidents annually in recent years and represents over 1.6 million people, is one example. Statewide, just five incidents were reported in Nevada in 2017.

But the problem of questionable or underreported data is not limited to any one state. Hawaii does not even participate in the national hate crime statistics program, and aside from Nevada, an additional 11 participating states had fewer than 10 agencies report hate crime incidents in 2017. Many of these states, such as Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia and Mississippi, have dark histories of racial and ethnic violence but have not enacted sufficient legislation to address hate crime.

So I think we can trust the FBI stats as certainly indicative of trending crime, but very incomplete. 

Another issue raised by stats is definitional. Is Adam Purinton, the guy who shouted "Get out of my country" before he killed Kuchibota, a "white supremacist"?  He might not be in the sense that he belongs to an active group of white supremacists, or that he wants all non-whites out of the country. Quite possible he is ok with "American" non-whites and thinks he is not racist at all (but very tired of political correctness!). Yet I would include people like him in any statistical compilation of right wing violence/terrorism. 

I’ll say more about your other points in a separate post.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-20-2019, 02:58 PM)Dill Wrote: Yow that’s a long post!  

Irony

[Dill]

(03-20-2019, 11:38 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: We need to be objective about this and treat every case individually to determine what is representative of white supremacy rising and what isn't. I appreciate you noting the statistics of reported hate crimes, but I don't see how any of that proves that white supremacy is "rising" in a way that makes it more or as much of a threat to the US as Islamic extremism.

I think the Center for Strategic and International Studies frames and answers the question of rising "white supremacy" usefully.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/rise-far-right-extremism-united-states

First of all, they compile their data from UMd's terrorist database, one of the best in existence, address definitional issues mentioned in my previous post (including "sovereign citizens"), and then point to developments which secure their "trending upward" claims.  Their first point concerns the increasing and increasingly sophisticated use of the internet for organizing and recruiting.  Second, they report that

. . .  right-wing extremists are increasingly traveling overseas to meet and exchange views with likeminded individuals. [5] In the spring of 2018, for example, several members of the Rise Above Movement (or RAM)—Robert Rundo, Ben Daley, and Michael Miselis—traveled to Germany, Ukraine, and Italy to celebrate Adolf Hitler’s birthday and to meet with members of European white supremacist groups. RAM is a white supremacist group headquartered in southern California. Its members posted photographs on their Instagram accounts of their Europe trip with the RAM logo and words like “RAPEFUGEES ARE NOT WELCOME HERE” and “REVOLT AGAINST MODERN … ACTIVISIM-ATHLETICS-VIRTUE … RIGHT SIDE.” 26 In Ukraine, RAM members met with groups like the Azov Battalion, a paramilitary unit of the Ukrainian National Guard, which the FBI says is associated with neo-Nazi ideology. The Azov Battalion also is believed to be training and radicalizing white supremacist organizations based in the United States. 27 These foreign connections provide U.S.-based groups with an opportunity to improve their tactics, develop better counter-intelligence techniques, harden their extremist views, and broaden their global networks.

Their third point concerns the dramatic stimuli, both positive and negative, far right groups have received over the last decade--the election of a black president, the prominence of the immigration issue, and the election of a president who winks in their direction and supports the kind of policies which don't mention race but, in effect, meet white supremacist rhetorical standards and goals (ban Muslims and lock out those rapists Mexico is "sending" us). They perceive greater "permission" to act.

So the overall picture is a ferment and flux of rising far right actors, some learning to act individually and others banding in groups and realizing international connections and resources like never before.

You refer to media alarmism about right-wing terror (which I confess I have not really seen). Yet CSIS's policy recommendations seem rather moderate and reasonable: "With the rising trend in right-wing extremism, U.S. federal and local agencies need to shift some of their focus and intelligence resources to penetrating far-right networks and preventing future attacks."

[*michaelsean*]

They perceive greater permission to act? Criminally? How’s the guy who killed the lady in Charlotte faring?

[Dill]

(03-20-2019, 11:38 AM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Okay, so a couple things I need to address here.

1) "Islamic terrorism is dropping world wide".

Would you say that you find that surprising? Because I honestly don't. 

ISIS (and its affiliates) have been the premier terror group over the last 4-5 years and has been committing a vast amount of terror throughout the world that caused a spike in global terror as a whole. Who has the US and other countries been mainly targeting and obliterating the last 3 years? ISIS.

So, I don't find it all that surprising that Islamic terrorism around the world has been dropping considering the world has been destroying the biggest perpetrators of it. The fact that global Islamic terror is declining doesn't mean that Islamic extremism is becoming less of an issue because Islamic extremism is dying. The decline in Islamic extremism is actually happening because we have been actively destroying it at a dramatically faster pace than any other extremist ideology out there, including white supremacy. Which leads me to the next point.

Quick note on this one.  I don't think the US or "the World" has been actively destroying an "ideology" called "Islamic terrorism" because it has denied one group, ISIS, its territorial base Syria.  

"Deaths from Islamic terror around the world" has always been to me a suspect measure, since so much of what is counted occurs in war zones.  If, during the battle for Raqa, an ISIS fighter drove a truck full of explosives into a Kurdish position and detonated, that would apparently qualify as a terrorist act, whereas an artillery shell would not, though intent and effect would be the same.

I also have questions about double standards again.  I don't think that mass incarceration and quasi-genocidal mass killing campaigns AGAINST Muslims (in, say, China or Myanmar) should be counted as "terrorist attacks" but such apparently are if perpetrated by ISIS or Al Qaeda.
For example, the June 14 Camp Speicher Attack, in which some 1700 Shia cadets were killed, counts as "Islamic Terrorism," https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20150709-iraqi-court-sentences-24-to-death-over-speicher-massacre/, and the Akashat ambush in 2013 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/03/20133415512939806.html, as well as the 2017 "Battle of Marawi" in the Philipines, in which thousands of armed soldiers and insurgents are fighting a pitched battle. https://web.archive.org/web/20170607193326/http://news.abs-cbn.com/news/06/02/17/marawi-city-siege-death-toll-reaches-175.

So a massive drop in the Caliphate's power to kill certainly produces a massive drop in what is counted as "Islamic terror."  But I doubt this number has much affect on Europe or the US or Afghanistan or Iraq.

I add that it is wrong to see armed groups as the simple source of terrorism, such that it will disappear if they disappear, rather the source is to be found in the conditions of political insecurity and privation under which many people live in the ME and Africa. If the U.S. military recreates these conditions in stamping out ISIS, they are only sowing the seeds of its return.

[Dill]

(03-20-2019, 03:43 PM)michaelsean Wrote: They perceive greater permission to act?  Criminally?  How’s the guy who killed the lady in Charlotte faring?

So the argument goes.  Permission in the sense they feel less opprobrium and more social support if they believe "their guy" is in charge of the country.   End of political correctness.  

I believe the guy who killed the woman in Charlotte is in jail.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-20-2019, 05:23 PM)Dill Wrote: So the argument goes.  Permission in the sense they feel less opprobrium and more social support if they believe "their guy" is in charge of the country.   End of political correctness.  

I believe the guy who killed the woman in Charlotte is in jail.

If you mean permission to act like asses within the law then they never needed that.  Outside the law they are still going down.    

[fredtoast]

Lot of stuff going on in this thread.  I feel like I am jumping back in the middle.  But here are a few points.

1.  Alt right terrorists are not always white supremacists.  Many of the most radical are anti-government.  I am sure there is a lot of cross over among many of these groups, but "Alt Right" is different from "White Supremacist".

2.  Claiming it is okay that you are 3 times more likely to get attacked because there is less than a 1% lower chance of getting killed is some impressive mental gymnastics to defend Right wing terrorists.

3.  One of the big reasons people see a "rise" in White Supremacy is not based on the number of attacks or killings.  Instead it is the return of the confederate battle flag to Presidential campaign rallies.  It is the racial rhetoric that the immigration debate has produced.  It is Klansmen wearing campaign hats for the current President.  It is the fact that white supremacists marched through Charlottesville without worrying about covering their faces or wearing hoods. It is an increase in hate crimes.  You can't blame any of that on the media.