Who is the Bengals Offensive MVP in 2017-18?

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-11-2017, 07:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Actually, Andy's effectiveness in the passing game can have a dramatic effect on the running game.  If they go from formations that could mean run or pass, and he passes well, teams will sell out to cover the pass.  Then, the rushing attack gets the benefit of Andy's proliferation in the passing game.

Good point, but I mean it more as that he isn't a Cam Newton, follow a FB-type runner.   Also, I think Ross's presence will have a more profound effect.  Heck, even Cody Core in week 17 had Baltimore's safeties back off the LOS...and guess what?  Burkhead had the best game of his career, and Core had a nice day as well.  That was with no Eifert and no AJ Green.  

I just love thinking about what they could be like when they are all together. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(07-09-2017, 10:20 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: My problem with AJ Green is that Dalton can't throw a deep pass. That excludes Dalton too then.

2011 called. They want their comment back.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

My offensive MVP nominee for 2017 is Andre Smith. He is returning to Cincinnati with a new lease on life and he'll be in a new position at right guard where he can contribute heavily with his amazing ability to run block. It says something to me when a player plays left tackle in college, moves to right tackle in the NFL, then moves to right guard. It means he's a team player all the way. As right guard, Andre won't have to move so much when pass blocking either which should help him as his career progresses. I've watched him from his days at Alabama and when Andre can plant his feet and block, he's among the best. When he has to move his feet a lot, as tackles must do, he can occasionally get pushed around. As right guard, Andre can plant and block more. This should serve to significantly improve the right side of the offensive line.

[*bfine32*]

Is this some more of that "Andy not getting respect in this forum"? He has half again as many votes as the 17th ranked player in the NFL. You guys will have to excuse my bias as I put my money on AJ.

[guyofthetiger]

(07-12-2017, 02:08 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Homers. lol

From '13 through last year... (61 starts)

On passes traveling 31 yards or more, 

35-90 -- 38.8%
1682 yards
18.7 yards per attempt
48.1 yards per completion
13 touchdowns
5 interceptions

103.0 rating

'13- Tied for 1st with 15 passes of 40+ yards
'14- Tied for 18th with 7 passes of 40+ yards
'15- Tied for 8th with 11 passes of 40+ yards
'16- Tied for 3rd with 13 passes of 40+ yards

You watch the games, so it must be the drugs...

For context. Here's Manning in his last 4 full, productive seasons '10, '12-'14 (64 starts)

35-85 -- 41.2%
1508 yards
17.7 yards per attempt
43.1 yards per completion
13 touchdowns
3 interceptions

113.4 rating

'10- Tied for 10th with 9 passes of 40+ yards
'12- Tied for 17th with 7 passes of 40+ yards
'13- Tied for 4th with 13 passes of 40+ yards
'14- Tied for 4th with 11 passes of 40+ yards

I'm starting to wonder which games it is that you're watching...

My definition of a deep ball is not 20 yards or even 40 yards. And not the end result. I'm talking about airing it out to the receiver. Your stats probably include a 10 yard pass where the receiver ran 30+ yards. I'm talking about a deep pass in the air. I'm not on drugs.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-12-2017, 04:49 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: My definition of a deep ball is not 20 yards or even 40 yards. And not the end result. I'm talking about airing it out to the receiver. Your stats probably include a 10 yard pass where the receiver ran 30+ yards. I'm talking about a deep pass in the air. I'm not on drugs.

This is a perfect example of you not paying close enough attention. Not being snarky or anything like that, but clearly in my post, i said "on passes traveling 31 yards or more". 

If you're talking about passes traveling 50+ yards in the air, that's rare. And because of that, not many people keep detailed stats on it. Still, if you've watched enough Bengals games, you've seen him complete passes like that on numerous occasions. 

Regardless, 30, 40 or 50 yards in the air, Dalton performs well when compared to other QBs in the NFL so you're conclusion that "Dalton can't throw a deep pass" is incorrect. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-12-2017, 04:49 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: My definition of a deep ball is not 20 yards or even 40 yards. And not the end result. I'm talking about airing it out to the receiver. Your stats probably include a 10 yard pass where the receiver ran 30+ yards. I'm talking about a deep pass in the air. I'm not on drugs.

(07-12-2017, 11:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Regardless, 30, 40 or 50 yards in the air, Dalton performs well when compared to other QBs in the NFL so you're conclusion that "Dalton can't throw a deep pass" is incorrect. 

Dalton can throw the deep ball and does so with great success. He owes this to his timing and anticipation. WTS, the "deep ball" is not a true indicator of arm strength. I would be amazed it there is any starting QB in the NFL that cannot throw the ball 50 yards in the air, just put more air under it. 

The true test of arm strength is can the QB fire it into that closing window on his back foot; ect...Many experts have suggested Andy has a weak at; however, it doesn't matter on the deep ball. In the past this is why I suggested Andy gets rid of the ball so quickly it travels in the air longer.

Either way a "weak arm" is just a last moniker to give a QB; hell, Peyton Manning was said to have a weak arm. That QB has had that arm strength his whole career. The key is anticipation and timing. IMO, this is why Andy throws the really "WTF was he doing" INT. 

So you're both right. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-13-2017, 06:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Dalton can throw the deep ball and does so with great success. He owes this to his timing and anticipation. WTS, the "deep ball" is not a true indicator of arm strength. I would be amazed it there is any starting QB in the NFL that cannot throw the ball 50 yards in the air, just put more air under it. 

The true test of arm strength is can the QB fire it into that closing window on his back foot; ect...Many experts have suggested Andy has a weak at; however, it doesn't matter on the deep ball. In the past this is why I suggested Andy gets rid of the ball so quickly it travels in the air longer.

Either way a "weak arm" is just a last moniker to give a QB; hell, Peyton Manning was said to have a weak arm. That QB has had that arm strength his whole career. The key is anticipation and timing. IMO, this is why Andy throws the really "WTF was he doing" INT. 

So you're both right. 

I do think there's a marked difference in his velocity on those throws from his first couple years till now. I'm not sure how often you've been able to get to training camp in the last couple years, but going in one time, while the QBs were just tossing it back and forth, i was quite a bit surprised with the velocity that the ball was coming out of his hand with. Compared to the other 3 or so QBs tossing the ball, his did look more effortless and seemed to get there quicker on what looked like just a flick of his wrist.

That velocity is so important on the sideline throw, 15 yards down field. 

[Shake n Blake]

(07-13-2017, 09:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I do think there's a marked difference in his velocity on those throws from his first couple years till now. I'm not sure how often you've been able to get to training camp in the last couple years, but going in one time, while the QBs were just tossing it back and forth, i was quite a bit surprised with the velocity that the ball was coming out of his hand with. Compared to the other 3 or so QBs tossing the ball, his did look more effortless and seemed to get there quicker on what looked like just a flick of his wrist.

That velocity is so important on the sideline throw, 15 yards down field. 

Initially, I reacted with a shrug to the news that Dalton was working with House, but you really could see a difference in velocity. Especially starting in 2015. He's been throwing bombs on a rope when it's needed (sometimes it's better to put air under it or "finesse" it) and his throws in general have a good amount of zip. Certainly above average in that category now, I'd say.

Btw, the steep decrease in INTs is more evidence of this. Let's hand it to the guy...15 INTs is pretty typical for most QBs for 1 season, and that's how many Dalton has thrown in the last 2 seasons combined.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-13-2017, 10:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Initially, I reacted with a shrug to the news that Dalton was working with House, but you really could see a difference in velocity. Especially starting in 2015. He's been throwing bombs on a rope when it's needed (sometimes it's better to put air under it or "finesse" it) and his throws in general have a good amount of zip. Certainly above average in that category now, I'd say.

Btw, the steep decrease in INTs is more evidence of this. Let's hand it to the guy...15 INTs is pretty typical for most QBs for 1 season, and that's how many Dalton has thrown in the last 2 seasons combined.

Dead on.  This, despite being on his third OC, having a significant turnover of receivers, not much of a running game, a below average offensive line, playing in the toughest division in the NFL, and having significant loss of talent due to injuries.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-12-2017, 02:08 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Homers. lol

From '13 through last year... (61 starts)

On passes traveling 31 yards or more, 

35-90 -- 38.8%
1682 yards
18.7 yards per attempt
48.1 yards per completion
13 touchdowns
5 interceptions

103.0 rating

'13- Tied for 1st with 15 passes of 40+ yards
'14- Tied for 18th with 7 passes of 40+ yards
'15- Tied for 8th with 11 passes of 40+ yards
'16- Tied for 3rd with 13 passes of 40+ yards

You watch the games, so it must be the drugs...

For context. Here's Manning in his last 4 full, productive seasons '10, '12-'14 (64 starts)

35-85 -- 41.2%
1508 yards
17.7 yards per attempt
43.1 yards per completion
13 touchdowns
3 interceptions

113.4 rating

'10- Tied for 10th with 9 passes of 40+ yards
'12- Tied for 17th with 7 passes of 40+ yards
'13- Tied for 4th with 13 passes of 40+ yards
'14- Tied for 4th with 11 passes of 40+ yards

I'm starting to wonder which games it is that you're watching...

(07-12-2017, 02:53 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Oh, here's another noted play-extending, throw it down the field QB. 

Big Ben  (57 games)

36-127 -- 28.3%
1699 yards
13.4 yards per attempt
47.2 yards per completion
16 touchdowns
12 interceptions

79.4 rating

'13- Tied for 6th with 10 passes of 40+ yards
'14- Tied for 1st with 15 passes of 40+ yards
'15- 1st with 17 passes of 40+ yards
'16- Tied for 12th with 8 passes of 40+ yards

But back to the topic. It will be....ummmm, Dalton.

...........

"......school's been blown....to....pieces....."

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-13-2017, 06:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Dalton can throw the deep ball and does so with great success. He owes this to his timing and anticipation. WTS, the "deep ball" is not a true indicator of arm strength. I would be amazed it there is any starting QB in the NFL that cannot throw the ball 50 yards in the air, just put more air under it. 

The true test of arm strength is can the QB fire it into that closing window on his back foot; ect...Many experts have suggested Andy has a weak at; however, it doesn't matter on the deep ball. In the past this is why I suggested Andy gets rid of the ball so quickly it travels in the air longer.

Either way a "weak arm" is just a last moniker to give a QB; hell, Peyton Manning was said to have a weak arm. That QB has had that arm strength his whole career. The key is anticipation and timing. IMO, this is why Andy throws the really "WTF was he doing" INT. 

So you're both right. 

Aside from the bolded....I would have to agree with the rest of the post.  As to why I would disagree with the bolded, faulk would sum my opinion up nicely...

(07-13-2017, 09:23 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I do think there's a marked difference in his velocity on those throws from his first couple years till now. I'm not sure how often you've been able to get to training camp in the last couple years, but going in one time, while the QBs were just tossing it back and forth, i was quite a bit surprised with the velocity that the ball was coming out of his hand with. Compared to the other 3 or so QBs tossing the ball, his did look more effortless and seemed to get there quicker on what looked like just a flick of his wrist.

That velocity is so important on the sideline throw, 15 yards down field. 

.....yup.

(07-13-2017, 10:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Initially, I reacted with a shrug to the news that Dalton was working with House, but you really could see a difference in velocity. Especially starting in 2015. He's been throwing bombs on a rope when it's needed (sometimes it's better to put air under it or "finesse" it) and his throws in general have a good amount of zip. Certainly above average in that category now, I'd say.

Btw, the steep decrease in INTs is more evidence of this. Let's hand it to the guy...15 INTs is pretty typical for most QBs for 1 season, and that's how many Dalton has thrown in the last 2 seasons combined.

Yes.  As bfine noted, his great strength of anticipation and timing were his greatest assets, but sometimes his worst enemy in the INT department.  You couple those attributes of his game with an increase in velocity, you get what we've seen in more recent times.  It's also safe to say his anticipation and timing has gotten better with experience as well....so that has some to do with it too.  He's no Dan Marino, but he has improved the velocity on his throws with improved mechanics after working with House.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-12-2017, 04:49 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: My definition of a deep ball is not 20 yards or even 40 yards. And not the end result. I'm talking about airing it out to the receiver. Your stats probably include a 10 yard pass where the receiver ran 30+ yards. I'm talking about a deep pass in the air. I'm not on drugs.

You seem to be against what everyone else has been posting as evidence and then say it's not "your definition".
Well, why don't you be the one to post evidence to support your claim instead since your definition appears to be different than everyone else's?

[*ochocincos*]

I'll also add this...
Andy Dalton was #9 in the league last year in terms of total "yards gained through the air" with 2323 yards. This takes YAC out of the equation.
https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/

Also, I'm not sure why being a deep ball thrower even matters when talking about MVP...it's not a requirement.
Tom Brady dinked and dunked his way to multiple Super Bowls, and many consider him the GOAT.
Would you take Jamarcus Russell over Tom Brady just because Russell could throw a ball 40 yards sitting down? I think not.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-09-2017, 10:14 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am not very good at "polls", etc., but I wanted to take the pulse of the board and see who folks are predicting as the Bengal's offensive MVP.

There are lots of choices.  You could go Dalton, the Ringmaster of it all.  AJ Green is a safe choice...dude was unstoppable before injury last year.  Eifert if he stays healthy could surely be the huge red zone guy.  And what of the RBs?  Will Mixon hurt opponents in both the rushing attack and through the air?  Will he take advantage of defenses playing off Ross and AJ?  The Road Runner?  Meep Meep!  John Ross has mercurial speed, and can change direction on a dime.  Is there an outsider?  Is someone going to go out on a limb and say Gio will come back as the second coming of Barry Sanders?  Will Jeremy Hill find his rookie form in his contract year?  Will Tyler Boyd become the new TJ Houshmanzadeh and catch 100 balls?

My vote is Ross.  He will help to open up the run game, burn teams deep with simple screens where a missed tackle results in a 90 yard TD, and help others like AJ, Eifert, Boyd, enjoy less attention from opposing defenses.  I am all in on Ross.  

What say you?

With this many weapons i have to go with Dalton. The ball will be spread around too much to be just one guy but AJ should
greatly benefit from the addition of Ross, same with Eifert if he can stay healthy. Mixon adds that versatility that Hill does not
which should also help the Offense as a whole.

In the end Dalton is my vote, he should throw for some major yardage and TD's with the addition of John Ross and Joe Mixon.

Both great Red Zone threats, same with Eifert if the guy can stay healthy lol

[Shake n Blake]

(07-14-2017, 11:10 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yes.  As bfine noted, his great strength of anticipation and timing were his greatest assets, but sometimes his worst enemy in the INT department.  You couple those attributes of his game with an increase in velocity, you get what we've seen in more recent times.  It's also safe to say his anticipation and timing has gotten better with experience as well....so that has some to do with it too.  He's no Dan Marino, but he has improved the velocity on his throws with improved mechanics after working with House.

Bingo.  :andy:

[*ochocincos*]

(07-14-2017, 12:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: With this many weapons i have to go with Dalton. The ball will be spread around too much to be just one guy but AJ should
greatly benefit from the addition of Ross, same with Eifert if he can stay healthy. Mixon adds that versatility that Hill does not
which should also help the Offense as a whole.

In the end Dalton is my vote, he should throw for some major yardage and TD's with the addition of John Ross and Joe Mixon.

Both great Red Zone threats, same with Eifert if the guy can stay healthy lol

Even though I've supported Dalton in multiple posts in this thread, my vote was actually for AJ Green. The reason is because this offensive declines pretty drastically when AJ Green is out of the lineup.

Case in point - AJ Green had 964 yards and 66 receptions on 99 targets in nine games (100 targets if you include the Bills game that he got early right at the beginning).

Andy Dalton 2016:
2553 yards in 9 games with AJ Green (284 YPG where 37.8% yardage came from AJ)
1653 yards in 7 games without AJ Green (236 YPG)

Evidence is pretty clear that AJ makes Dalton a lot better, so IMO AJ is more valuable than Dalton.

[XenoMorph]

(07-14-2017, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'll also add this...
Andy Dalton was #9 in the league last year in terms of total "yards gained through the air" with 2323 yards. This takes YAC out of the equation.
https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/quarterback-air-yards/2016/

Also, I'm not sure why being a deep ball thrower even matters when talking about MVP...it's not a requirement.
Tom Brady dinked and dunked his way to multiple Super Bowls, and many consider him the GOAT.
Would you take Jamarcus Russell over Tom Brady just because Russell could throw a ball 40 yards sitting down? I think not.

Dalton was one of the best deep ballers in the league when he had health WRs in 15.  


Dalton will have his MVP season this year if the OL can do its job.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-14-2017, 02:31 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Dalton was one of the best deep ballers in the league when he had health WRs in 15.  


Dalton will have his MVP season this year if the OL can do its job.

A healthy AJ Green is key too.

[McC]

Well, since Andy will be the league MVP, he'll almost have to be our offensive MVP.