Who is to blame?

[GMDino]

I just happened to see Matt's post in the comics thread after having a long discussion with one of our employees about immigratns, unions and what happened to the american worker.

It started with him lamenting his time in Florida and how the illegals moved in and destroyed the pay scale (in the 1990's)

As we went back and forth he said they would live ten to an apartment...and fill multiple apartment buildings....saving their money and barely spending anything.  Then some of them would get legal and they would end up buying the businesses that closed when they couldn't compete with the cheap labor.  Now the immigrants are living BETTER than the previous owners because they work hard and know how to do it.

My response was...No kidding!  That's how it works.  You work, save your money and then better yourself.

But beyond that don't blame the guy willing to work hard for less money:  Blame the guy who figured hiring them would make HIM more money and driving everyone else out of business.

He also blamed the elected officials for not enforcing laws and protecting the legal workers.

I told him they don't care about the workers...they care about who is lobbying them to make laws.

He said at the time if there were 50 constructions companies in his area there were five using "illegals".

So I asked why the other 45 didn't band together, fight for strictor hiring laws.  Instead they looked at the guy hiring people cheaper and decided THAT was the way to go to increase their own profits and protect their own hind ends.

His argument was that that would have taken time and they might have lost their businesses by the time it was all sorted out.

I answered that they DID lose their businesses in the end.

Business owners saw a hard way (lobby for their employees and keep paying them a living wage) and an easy way (go with the competition and hire cheap labor) and they chose they easy way.  That's THEIR fault.  The kept screwing everyone from their own employees on up until there was no one left to screw and they ended up screwing themselves.

The reason unions are under attack, the reason living wages are scoffed at, the reason "they're taking are jobbzzz" is a mantra isn't just greed.  Nope, It's just easier.  The guys at the top will suffer last.  So they play the odds that they will never suffer.  

Had we had businesses willing to defend the american worker for the last nearly 40 years we'd be a great country still.  Instead we are a country divided by the workers wondering what happened and looking for someone to blame and the owners that are really to blame by spend their time deflecting to everyone else.

[*michaelsean*]

I blame people who knowingly higher illegals. I don't know how the system to come here works, but it seems very onerous. Expedite the process, increase the numbers if necessary, and I'm happy with any immigrants who come here.

The fact that they are willing to live crammed together and save all their money is commendable. That's the Camelot of the American Dream. That's what we preach. And you need an influx of people who are hungry for that.

I really don't care how many people we let in, I'm just tired of hearing that wanting to be in control of that is racist or whatever.

[Belsnickel]

The funny thing is that comic is older. I'm not sure to when it dates, but this is a constant cycle that we have been seeing in this country.

One of the things I read about recently was how much the great thinkers of the 19th century were concerned about corporations. As the industrial revolution happened, as we ran out of room to expand, our society changed significantly. We made a shift from a more agrarian economy to an industrial one. This has its ups and downs, but there are other factors involved that can make things worse. Some of the people seeing this rise during the 1800s considered being wage labor the same thing as slavery. I wish I had the book in front of me right now to give you some names, but these are well known political and economic names. The rise of the corporation and wage labor reduced a person's self-reliance, which was the foundation upon which this country was founded.

What we see with using undocumented immigrants for labor is nothing more than market capitalism. The corporations are doing it, and so must the littler firms to compete. In order to maximize profits to the best they can, they are going to take advantage of the cheapest and most productive labor source. The issue is that because we are currently in a cycle, like we were in the decades leading to the Great Depression, where our government is too hesitant to regulate business they are turning their focus to the individuals that are, essentially, slaves. That is, if we were to think like those in the lead up to, and in the midst of, the industrial revolution.

The labor movement occurred in the middle of this cycle, fighting to try to make it so wage labor is less comparable to slavery. Child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, time off, safety standards, the list could go on. These are things that the labor movement has given us. Now, most of these have stuck, though we have done some backsliding on a few. But the workplace is hardly ideal as we can see with a large disparity in the increase in productivity and GDP compared to the increase in wages for the workers.

I think that organized labor still has an important role to play in today's society. Is it possible that there should be a reform? I think so. I think that unions should stick to advocating for the workers with their industry groups and employers, not lobbying efforts. That being said, I'm also in favor of changing lobbying laws, so that would affect unions as well. But collective bargaining and organized labor is something that we need in this country if we are to ever hope to turn things around and actually enjoy the successes like we saw in the middle of the 20th century. We're continuing to abandon that formula while advocating for a society similar to it (maybe with less racism, sexism, etc.). That isn't being honest with ourselves in the slightest.

These are all reasons why I have been doing things with the new Poor People's Campaign, a rebirth of the efforts of Dr. King 50 years ago. An effort to stamp out injustices in the economy and in society. Be they economic, racial, whatever. The working people in this country have been getting screwed over in favor of business for a long time because the memory in this country is very short term. It's time for an organized movement of laborers to stand up for ourselves and take the power back from the corporations and the wealthy that play the largest influential roles in our society and our government.

Edit: Sorry for the long-ish rant that was only somewhat on topic.

[GMDino]

(06-29-2018, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I blame people who knowingly higher illegals.  I don't know how the system to come here works, but it seems very onerous.  Expedite the process, increase the numbers if necessary, and I'm happy with any immigrants who come here.  

The fact that they are willing to live crammed together and save all their money is commendable.  That's the Camelot of the American Dream.  That's what we preach.  And you need an influx of people who are hungry for that.  

I really don't care how many people we let in, I'm just tired of hearing that wanting to be in control of that is racist or whatever.

Since we agree on most of this I'll just address the last line:

One thing I left out was the part where I tried to explain that if Trump had an actual plan and then provided the appropriate funds and staffing this would be an easier problem to solve.

But since his plan seemed to be "take their kids...that'll scare 'em into not coming" it looks bad.  And the fact they had to basically scrap that "plan because they didn't have the jail space or system in place to handle the number of new cases they created just shows how poorly thought out and bad it was.

So now he has a bad plan that failed AND he looks awful and racist.

I'm not against border control...I'm against someone trying to do bad things without thinking.

[Benton]

(06-29-2018, 10:22 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I blame people who knowingly higher illegals.  I don't know how the system to come here works, but it seems very onerous.  Expedite the process, increase the numbers if necessary, and I'm happy with any immigrants who come here.  

The fact that they are willing to live crammed together and save all their money is commendable.  That's the Camelot of the American Dream.  That's what we preach.  And you need an influx of people who are hungry for that.  

I really don't care how many people we let in, I'm just tired of hearing that wanting to be in control of that is racist or whatever.

Lots of folks have said for years: fix the system and immigration won't be an issue.

A big part of that is enforcing existing labor laws. 

[*michaelsean*]

(06-29-2018, 10:32 AM)GMDino Wrote: Since we agree on most of this I'll just address the last line:

One thing I left out was the part where I tried to explain that if Trump had an actual plan and then provided the appropriate funds and staffing this would be an easier problem to solve.

But since his plan seemed to be "take their kids...that'll scare 'em into not coming" it looks bad.  And the fact they had to basically scrap that "plan because they didn't have the jail space or system in place to handle the number of new cases they created just shows how poorly thought out and bad it was.

So now he has a bad plan that failed AND he looks awful and racist.

I'm not against border control...I'm against someone trying to do bad things without thinking.

Yeah I'm not basing this on Trump and his whims of the day.  We need someone, or a group or Congress to make it so that coming here illegally isn't the first option.  If I knew that our borders would be mostly controlled because people no longer needed to sneak in then I'd be fine granting people already here legal status after a background check.   

Now seeing as I don't know how the  immigration process works, I could be way off base, and making it easier to come here and allowing a lot more people to come here may be way easier said than done.

[fredtoast]

People don't realize that the labor organization movement in the United States happened at about the same time as the communist and socialist movements in other countries.  They both basically had the same goals.  Give the workers some power by organizing them to work together instead of fighting against each other for individual gain. The first labor movements in the US were lumped together with socialism.  Unions were considered a for of the "evil" communism, and in fact many labor leaders were socialist o communist.

The big people at the top suck up more and more wealth and power by convincing the lower 90% that the only way to get anything is to fight among themselves for a larger share of the scraps instead of actually working together to demand their fair share of the whole pie.  and this ploy has worked especially well since the 1970's.  the numbers prove it.

The wealthy elite suck up 90% of all income growth and then convince the workers that they are getting screwed by the immigrants who take 1%.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Replace "illegals" with "Irish" and you're right back in the 1800s/early 1900s.

Heck, the Irish are the reason why we limit immigration now.

[GMDino]

(06-29-2018, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The funny thing is that comic is older. I'm not sure to when it dates, but this is a constant cycle that we have been seeing in this country.

One of the things I read about recently was how much the great thinkers of the 19th century were concerned about corporations. As the industrial revolution happened, as we ran out of room to expand, our society changed significantly. We made a shift from a more agrarian economy to an industrial one. This has its ups and downs, but there are other factors involved that can make things worse. Some of the people seeing this rise during the 1800s considered being wage labor the same thing as slavery. I wish I had the book in front of me right now to give you some names, but these are well known political and economic names. The rise of the corporation and wage labor reduced a person's self-reliance, which was the foundation upon which this country was founded.

What we see with using undocumented immigrants for labor is nothing more than market capitalism. The corporations are doing it, and so must the littler firms to compete. In order to maximize profits to the best they can, they are going to take advantage of the cheapest and most productive labor source. The issue is that because we are currently in a cycle, like we were in the decades leading to the Great Depression, where our government is too hesitant to regulate business they are turning their focus to the individuals that are, essentially, slaves. That is, if we were to think like those in the lead up to, and in the midst of, the industrial revolution.

The labor movement occurred in the middle of this cycle, fighting to try to make it so wage labor is less comparable to slavery. Child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, time off, safety standards, the list could go on. These are things that the labor movement has given us. Now, most of these have stuck, though we have done some backsliding on a few. But the workplace is hardly ideal as we can see with a large disparity in the increase in productivity and GDP compared to the increase in wages for the workers.

I think that organized labor still has an important role to play in today's society. Is it possible that there should be a reform? I think so. I think that unions should stick to advocating for the workers with their industry groups and employers, not lobbying efforts. That being said, I'm also in favor of changing lobbying laws, so that would affect unions as well. But collective bargaining and organized labor is something that we need in this country if we are to ever hope to turn things around and actually enjoy the successes like we saw in the middle of the 20th century. We're continuing to abandon that formula while advocating for a society similar to it (maybe with less racism, sexism, etc.). That isn't being honest with ourselves in the slightest.

These are all reasons why I have been doing things with the new Poor People's Campaign, a rebirth of the efforts of Dr. King 50 years ago. An effort to stamp out injustices in the economy and in society. Be they economic, racial, whatever. The working people in this country have been getting screwed over in favor of business for a long time because the memory in this country is very short term. It's time for an organized movement of laborers to stand up for ourselves and take the power back from the corporations and the wealthy that play the largest influential roles in our society and our government.

Edit: Sorry for the long-ish rant that was only somewhat on topic.

(06-29-2018, 01:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Replace "illegals" with "Irish" and you're right back in the 1800s/early 1900s.

Aye.  It's a "pendulum" subject/topic over time.  But the pendulum seems to have swung so far to one side it may never come back.

[Dill]

(06-29-2018, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The funny thing is that comic is older. I'm not sure to when it dates, but this is a constant cycle that we have been seeing in this country.

One of the things I read about recently was how much the great thinkers of the 19th century were concerned about corporations. As the industrial revolution happened, as we ran out of room to expand, our society changed significantly. We made a shift from a more agrarian economy to an industrial one. This has its ups and downs, but there are other factors involved that can make things worse. Some of the people seeing this rise during the 1800s considered being wage labor the same thing as slavery. I wish I had the book in front of me right now to give you some names, but these are well known political and economic names. The rise of the corporation and wage labor reduced a person's self-reliance, which was the foundation upon which this country was founded.

Frederick Jackson Turner in there somewhere?

(06-29-2018, 10:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: What we see with using undocumented immigrants for labor is nothing more than market capitalism. The corporations are doing it, and so must the littler firms to compete. In order to maximize profits to the best they can, they are going to take advantage of the cheapest and most productive labor source. The issue is that because we are currently in a cycle, like we were in the decades leading to the Great Depression, where our government is too hesitant to regulate business they are turning their focus to the individuals that are, essentially, slaves. That is, if we were to think like those in the lead up to, and in the midst of, the industrial revolution.

The labor movement occurred in the middle of this cycle, fighting to try to make it so wage labor is less comparable to slavery. Child labor laws, the 40 hour work week, time off, safety standards, the list could go on. These are things that the labor movement has given us. Now, most of these have stuck, though we have done some backsliding on a few. But the workplace is hardly ideal as we can see with a large disparity in the increase in productivity and GDP compared to the increase in wages for the workers.

I think that organized labor still has an important role to play in today's society. Is it possible that there should be a reform? I think so. I think that unions should stick to advocating for the workers with their industry groups and employers, not lobbying efforts. That being said, I'm also in favor of changing lobbying laws, so that would affect unions as well. But collective bargaining and organized labor is something that we need in this country if we are to ever hope to turn things around and actually enjoy the successes like we saw in the middle of the 20th century. We're continuing to abandon that formula while advocating for a society similar to it (maybe with less racism, sexism, etc.). That isn't being honest with ourselves in the slightest.

I think that is an understatement. The rollback of unions is one of the primary reasons wages have remained stagnant while productivity has risen.