Why are so many on the left vile and evil?

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2018, 02:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the point you are missing is that the Left is the one that came up with the going low analogy in this instance. So they are assigning the action (of hypothetical violence) to both sides.

If the Right had said "we'll go low" then you may have a point.

Violence used in self defense is justified.  You have said this yourself many times.  Holder justified going low ONLY when the Republicans do it first.

It seems the values you hold are defined by party affiliation instead of any moral conscious. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-19-2018, 02:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The right isn't going to come out and say "we're going low." That is ridiculous. They may say it behind closed doors, but dirty politics is just something that the sides engage in without acknowledging that they're doing it (but calling out the other side for). 

But the Left if going to accuse them of it and then they assert their defense of an offense they accuse the other side of. 

Quote:This attempt to explain your lack of understanding of the analogy used is inane.

I agree. You did a pretty poor job of attempting explain my "lack of understanding".

[*bfine32*]

(10-19-2018, 02:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Violence used in self defense is justified.  You have said this yourself many times.  Holder justified going low ONLY when the Republicans do it first.

It seems the values you hold are defined by party affiliation instead of any moral conscious. 

Holder bastardized a quote made by Michelle Obama that tried to instill peace to one that instilled an escalation of force.

You are excusing this; yet, somehow in Fredlogic my moral conscious should be questioned.

[Belsnickel]

(10-19-2018, 02:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But the Left if going to accuse them of it and then they assert their defense of an offense they accuse the other side of. 

And? Still not a call for violence.

(10-19-2018, 02:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree. You did a pretty poor job of attempting explain my "lack of understanding".

I may have, because I find the inability for someone to understand the use of this analogy and trying to describe it as a call for violence so lacking due to the elementary nature of the analogy that I have difficult trying to describe it. It is a near universal knowledge that I wouldn't think I would have to explain.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2018, 02:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Holder bastardized a quote made by Michelle Obama that tried to instill peace to one that instilled an escalation of force.

Your objection to the use of violence in self defense has been noted, documented, and inserted into your permanent record.

[*bfine32*]

(10-19-2018, 02:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: And? Still not a call for violence.


I may have, because I find the inability for someone to understand the use of this analogy and trying to describe it as a call for violence so lacking due to the elementary nature of the analogy that I have difficult trying to describe it. It is a near universal knowledge that I wouldn't think I would have to explain.

It has been explained to Fred Holder bastardized a call by Michelle for civility to a call for escalation of violence. 

You can save the attempts at explanations and insults and have a good weekend.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2018, 02:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Holder bastardized a quote made by Michelle Obama that tried to instill peace to one that instilled an escalation of force.

You are excusing this; yet, somehow in Fredlogic my moral conscious should be questioned.

Neither Holder or Obama mentioned force in any way.  You know that.  You are just making up BS out of thin air because you don't have anything real to back up your position..

“How we urge them to ignore those who question their father’s citizenship or faith. How we insist that this hateful language they hear form public figures on TV does not represent the true spirit of this country. How we explain that when someone is cruel or acts like a bully you don’t stoop to their level. No, our moto is: when they go low, we go high.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2018, 02:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It has been explained to Fred Holder bastardized a call by Michelle for civility to a call for escalation of violence. 

It was not "explained".  You just made that up out of thin air.  Holder never said anything about violence and you know it.

That is why you are running away.

[Belsnickel]

(10-19-2018, 02:18 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It has been explained to Fred Holder bastardized a call by Michelle for civility to a call for escalation of violence. 

And you were wrong then, as you are now. There was no call for violence in any way.

[*bfine32*]

(10-19-2018, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your objection to the use of violence in self defense has been noted, documented, and inserted into your permanent record.

Oh, I fully understand you support Holder kicking someone when they go low; yet only one speaks of physical violence. Despite Matt's attempts to equate going low to a physical act of violence; Michelle was using it to describe those who speak in slurs. 

Michelle said ignore this, Holder said kick them. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-19-2018, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It was not "explained".  You just made that up out of thin air.  Holder never said anything about violence and you know it.

That is why you are running away.

He said kick them. Kicking someone is a violent act.

It's not running away; it's realizing that the people you are talking to have assumed the task of telling you, what you are saying and you are no longer required in the conversation.

Have a good weekend. 

[GMDino]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/10/24/robert-rundo-rise-above-movement-charlottesville-huntington-beach-berkeley/1755798002/

Quote:Members of 'combat-ready' white supremacy group charged with violence at political rallies

The leader and three members of a California-based white supremacist group have been charged with attacking counter-protesters, journalists and a police officer at political rallies throughout the state in 2017, the U.S. Attorney's Office in Los Angeles said Wednesday.



The men and other members of the "Rise Above Movement" sought to "organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on riots" in Huntington Beach, Berkeley, San Bernardino and the deadly Charlottesville rally, the office said. 


Robert Rundo, 28, who allegedly founded the group, was denied bail Wednesday after first appearing in court on Monday. 
Robert Boman, 25, and Tyler Laube, 22, were both arrested Wednesday morning, prosecutors said, while Aaron Eason, 38, remains at large.


The charges come just weeks after a federal grand jury in Virginia indicted four other alleged members of the group on similar charges linked to the Charlottesville rally, during which a white supremacist killed Heather Heyer and injured more than a dozen others.

"Every American has a right to peacefully organize, march and protest in support of their beliefs – but no one has the right to violently assault their political opponents," U.S. Attorney for the Central District of California Nick Hanna said in a statement. 
"The allegations describe an orchestrated effort to squelch free speech as members of the conspiracy traveled to multiple locations to attack those who hold different views."


According to an affidavit attached to the criminal complaint, RAM is a "combat-ready, militant group of a new nationalist white supremacy/identity movement" that trained members to fight and coordinated attendance at political rallies.

At a Huntington Beach "Make America Great Again" rally in March 2017, Rundo, Boman and Laube allegedly attacked multiple people, including two journalists, prosecutors said.


According to the affidavit, Laube grabbed one journalist by the shoulder then punched him in the face three times. Members of RAM later celebrated the assault when it was highlighted on a neo-Nazi website, "Daily Stormer," the affidavit alleges.


Rundo was also arrested at an April rally in Berkeley for punching a "defenseless person" and a police officer, prosecutors said. Boman and Eason were allegedly violent at the rally, too, according to the affidavit.


Members of the group attacked counter-protesters at an "Anti-Islamic Law” rally in San Bernardino in June 2017, the affidavit also alleges.


The four charged in Virginia attended rallies in California, at which they allegedly committed acts of violence, prosecutors said.


In addition to the violence at rallies, Rundo allegedly maintained the group's Twitter account, which posted photos and videos of the men training in hand-to-hand combat and of their alleged assaults at rallies, according to the affidavit.


Rundo and two of the men charged in Virginia celebrated Adolf Hitler’s birthday this spring in Europe, where they met with other white supremacy extremist groups, according to the affidavit.


The four men charged in California could face up to 10 years in federal prison if found guilty.

[GMDino]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/10/26/iowa-man-burns-lgbtq-books-orange-city-pride-public-library/1772080002/

Quote:Iowa man burns LGBTQ books from public library in Facebook video


The Orange City Public Library said it's exploring legal options after a northwest Iowa man rented and then publicly burned several children's books last week.

The second annual OC Pride kicked off last Friday with a story time for kids, a schedule shows. About an hour before the event, Paul Dorr started a live Facebook video, during which he threw at least four books with LGBTQ themes that he claimed he rented from the public library into a burning trash can.

Dorr is the director of Rescue The Perishing, a religious group and website he calls a "crisis center and pro-life, pro-family movement."

The majority of the live video shows Dorr reading a blog post from the site titled "May God And The Homosexuals of OC Pride Please Forgive Us!"

Dorr declined to be interviewed.

Amanda Vazquez, the library's director, said she learned of the video on Saturday. The library "alerted the board" and spoke with authorities to determine "next steps," including possible legal action, Vazquez said.

The Orange City Police Chief confirmed that parties were discussing legal action, but declined to comment further.

"Frankly, I found it disgusting," said Mark Stringer, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) of Iowa.
"We are disturbed to see this. 

"Burning books from a public library is a clear attempt to shut down the open sharing and discussion of ideas," Stringer said.
"It's one person, or maybe a group, deciding that they’re the gatekeeper of ideas for the rest of the public."

Earlier this year, a petition circulated in Orange City demanded that books with any LGBTQ content be separated from other books and labeled as such. More than 340 people signed.

The library later reorganized its books by subject rather than alphabetical order by an author's name.
Orange City flier by [/url]on Scribd

Three of the four books burned by Dorr were featured in that petition earlier this year.

Those include "[url=https://www.amazon.com/Two-Boys-Kissing-David-Levithan/dp/0307931900]Two Boys Kissing," a young adult novel by David Levithan; "Morris Micklewhite and the Tangerine Dress," a children’s book about a boy who likes to wear a tangerine dress, by Christine Baldacchino; and "This Day In June," a picture book about a pride parade, by Gayle E. Pitman. The fourth book Dorr burned was Suzanne and Max Lang's
"Families, Families, Families!", about nontraditional families.

"I think it's important to make a distinction between what happened early this year and what happened this weekend," said Dan Chibnall, vice president of the Iowa Library Association and Drake University STEM librarian. He said he could not speak on behalf of ILA, as the group has not yet released a statement. 

The petition was "a civil way" to protest, unlike Friday's book burning, Chibnall said.

"These were one person's actions and beliefs, and they hopefully do not represent a group or the community," Chibnall said.

Burning public property on video is a poor example for children, he added. 

"It is disappointing to see folks break the law in a community where we believe abiding by the law keeps everyone safe," OC Pride said in a statement Monday.

"We are thankful for the LGBTQ+ community here in NW Iowa for setting a positive example of building community in light of those who do violent, illegal things to prove a point," the statement continued.

The group is collecting donations through a GoFundMe.

Orange City is the county seat of Sioux County, known as the most conservativecounty in the state. U.S. Rep. Steve King represents the area, part of Iowa's 4th Congressional District.

Dorr, in the blog post, said his actions don't represent "any political party." 

I love when these Patriots do something and then refuse to be interviewed.  They know they cannot defend their positions when someone outside their echo chamber is talking with them.

[fredtoast]

(10-19-2018, 02:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: He said kick them. Kicking someone is a violent act.

How can you kick someone who is not there?

Got a list of all the times a person from the right has physically attacked a person from the left by "going low"?

[GMDino]

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/kansas-militia-men-blame-trumps-rhetoric-planned-attack-58854564

Quote:Kansas militia men blame Trump's rhetoric for planned attack




Attorneys for Kansas militia members who conspired to bomb a mosque and apartment complex housing Somali immigrants have asked the court to take into account at a sentencing hearing next month what they called President Donald Trump's rhetoric encouraging violence.



One has asked the judge to also consider the fact that all three men read and shared Russian propaganda on their Facebook feed designed to sow discord in the U.S. political system.


A federal jury convicted Patrick Stein, Gavin Wright and Curtis Allen of one count of conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction and one count of conspiracy against civil rights in April. Wright was also found guilty of lying to the FBI. The attack, planned for the day after the 2016 general election, was thwarted by another member of the group who tipped off authorities about escalating threats of violence.


U.S. District Judge Eric Melgren will consider at their sentencing on Nov. 19 and 20 how much time each man will spend in prison. Conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction carries a possible maximum sentence of life imprisonment, while the sentence for the civil rights violation carries no more than 10 years. The sentencing had previously been scheduled for Friday.


Prosecutors are seeking life terms for all three, while defense attorneys are variously pleading for shorter terms of 15, 10 or even time served.


The government pointed to the seriousness of the offense, which it says continues to have "a deep, lasting impact on the victims' sense of security in their homes and at their mosque. It also wanted to ensure the men can never threaten the safety of the public again. And it argued for the need to send a strong deterrent message that violence against the government or any person will not be tolerated.


But defense attorneys in court filings Monday and Tuesday sought to humanize their clients and spread some of the blame.


"The court cannot ignore the circumstances of one of the most rhetorically mold-breaking, violent, awful, hateful and contentious presidential elections in modern history, driven in large measure by the rhetorical China shop bull who is now our president," according to a sentencing memorandum written by attorneys representing Stein.


His attorneys said Trump's "rough-and-tumble verbal pummeling" heightened the rhetorical stakes for people of all political persuasions. Stein was an early and avid supporter for Trump, and his connection to Trump was "so complete and long-standing" that Trump's surprising win cannot be ignored when evaluating the likelihood of an actual attack, they said.


Trump's win "changed everything" because the men's the urgency for action and the feeling of a losing battle would be gone, they argued. Conspiracies — among them that then President Barack Obama would not relinquish power — would be disproven. He contended the discussed attack likely would never have happened in the world that existed after Trump's election.


Stein's knowledge of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, came from the internet and conservative talk-show hosts such as Sean Hannity and Michael Savage, Stein's attorneys wrote.


The sentencing memorandum filed by attorneys for Allen is littered with examples of Russian propaganda ads found in his Facebook feed. All three men were Facebook "friends" with each other and shared, liked or posted content from groups later determined to have been created by Russian Operatives, according to the filing.


Among the Russian propaganda: a photo Stein shared in February 2016 from the "Heart of Texas" Facebook group, in March 2016 Allen "liked" America's Freedom Fighters, in October Wright shared a photo meme on Facebook created by the Facebook group "Being Patriotic."


Allen, an Iraq war veteran who suffers from PTSD and believed Muslims were the enemy, was susceptible to the influence of the social media he consumed, his attorneys argued.


"He was particularly vulnerable to the social media onslaught by Russian operatives that included in 2016 themes and messages that stoked the flames on issues related to this case," Allen's defense attorneys wrote. "These crimes occurred during a time of high political intensity in 2016. In short, it was a perfect storm of facts and circumstances."


Defense attorneys for Wright argued that since Trump's election the nation has seen an unprecedented increase in civil rights violence, repeatedly citing White House statements such as calling Islam "a dangerous threat" and painting Americans as "victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad."


As recently as Tuesday, when their motion was filed, his attorneys pointed to another Trump tweet saying that "some very bad people" are mixed in the South American migrant caravan and calling it is "an invasion" of the country.

"As long as the Executive Branch condemns Islam and commends and encourages violence against would-be enemies, then a sentence imposed by the Judicial Branch does little to deter people generally from engaging in such conduct if they believe they are protecting their countries from enemies identified by their own Commander-in-Chief," Wright's lawyers wrote.

So now they want to say they were duped...or at least fueled...by the POTUS and the Russians.

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2018, 10:21 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/kansas-militia-men-blame-trumps-rhetoric-planned-attack-58854564







So now they want to say they were duped...or at least fueled...by the POTUS and the Russians.

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. 

A drowning man will grasp at anything.  I do hope you're not using this as proof of anything.  

[GMDino]

(10-31-2018, 10:46 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A drowning man will grasp at anything.  I do hope you're not using this as proof of anything.  

I'm using as proof that these guys are willing to pretend they are just dumbass pawns to save their own skin.

Snowflakes.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2018, 11:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: I'm using as proof that these guys are willing to pretend they are just dumbass pawns to save their own skin.

Snowflakes.

You mean guys who conspired to blow up a place of worship aren't the most upstanding decent people?  I, for one, am shocked.  Shocked I say!

[GMDino]

(10-31-2018, 11:30 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You mean guys who conspired to blow up a place of worship aren't the most upstanding decent people?  I, for one, am shocked.  Shocked I say!

As shocked as I was to find out they weren't a member of the "vile and evil" left.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-31-2018, 11:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: As shocked as I was to find out they weren't a member of the "vile and evil" left.  

Wait, I thought you disliked when people engaged in whataboutary?  That must have been someone else posting under your exact screen name.