Why does he refuse to condemn them?

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 06:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Title of thread should be changed to:

"Why doesn't he condemn them the way we want him to"

LOL I love this keeper. 

Proud Boys liked the way Trump "condemned" them. But that won't satisfy the "haters" I guess.

So yes "WE" want him to condemn white supremacy "our way," unambiguously and totally.  

And clean up the mess now by telling the Proud Boys directly that their ideology is repugnant and they DO NOT have his backing--tell them without being asked.  "You stand for the opposite of what I stand for. You are not welcome at my rallies!" 

And thank you for helping make this plain--

He DOES NOT want to condemn them "our way." 

[BmorePat87]

(09-30-2020, 05:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Well now, I don't know about that Bpat.  

What do you mean by "white supremacy" and what groups are you talking about? 


Say--YOU aren't against law enforcement, are you??

Do you think it's right that entire US cities are burning to the ground? 

Maybe it’s because I’ve never done something like use crime statistics from Stormfront to argue that some races are inherently more criminal than others, but to me it’s any group that argues for an all white nation or yells “Jews will not replace us”.

I want a president who doesn’t suggest there’s some “fine people” in that group and who doesn’t need to be asked 4 times to denounce them.

Again, I’m just a simple guy who hasn’t ever used the nation’s largest Neo Nazi website to argue that crime in genetic, so I may be biased.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 05:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most likely not plain enough

Quote:“I’ve always denounced any form, any form, of any of that,” Trump said

(09-30-2020, 06:12 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL I love this keeper. Proud Boys liked the way he condemned them. Why won't that satisfy everyone else? 

Yes "WE" want him to condemn white supremacy unambiguously and totally.  

And clean up the mess now by telling the Proud Boys directly that their ideology is repugnant and they DO NOT have his backing--tell them without being asked.  "You stand for the opposite of what I stand for. You are not welcome at my rallies!" 

And thank you for helping make this plain--

He DOES NOT want to condemn them "our way." 

Unsure what's ambiguous about that

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 06:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Quote:“I’ve always denounced any form, any form, of any of that,” Trump said

Unsure what's ambiguous about that

And that's the pity, isn't it?

You don't see how or why Trump's coerced, qualified and deflective "condemnations" fall short.

But this guy does:

Joe Biggs, a prominent Proud Boy who has worn shirts declaring “I’m Just Here for the Violence” and celebrating the executions of left-wing Chilean activists thrown from helicopters, posted that Trump’s remarks were permission to “go **** them up.”

“Trump basically said to go **** them up!” Biggs wrote on Parler, a social media network popular with conservatives. “This makes me so happy.”

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-30-2020, 05:47 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: After last night I’m not sure why it took asking it twice. The answer to “do you welcome white supremacists” isn’t “I support law enforcement”.

As I pointed out earlier, Trump was correct to ask for specific names to condemn. You don’t want to paint with too broad a brush when condemning white supremacists groups. Because you don’t want to accidentally condemn the KKK when you want to just condemn the Proud Boys.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 06:29 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: As I pointed out earlier, Trump was correct to ask for specific names to condemn. You don’t want to paint with too broad a brush when condemning white supremacists groups. Because you don’t want to accidentally condemn the KKK when you want to just condemn the Proud Boys.

I feel this should be asked, because I'm thinking opinions vary on this.  Is it really accurate to label the Proud Boys as white supremacist?

[fredtoast]

The people on the left understand that Trump supports violent alt-right and racist groups.

The violent alt-right and racist groups understand that Trump supports them  That is why Ben Shapiro has them yelling "Heil Trump".  That is why David Duke and his KKK buddies wear MAGA hats.  That is why Confederate flags are welcome at his rallies.  That is why The Proud Boys were thrilled with his comments from last nights debate.

The ONLY people too dense to understand that Trump supports the violent alt-right and racist groups are his brainless base who support him no matter what he says.  when he told a black woman who was born and raise in the United Sates to "Go back to the country she came from" white nationalist were thrilled that they finally had the first President brave enough to agree with their ides word-for-word.  I have not seen their comments after he claimed white people were genetically superior in Minnesota, but I am sure they are having another celebration.  They were even thrilled after he supposedly "denounced" them after the Charlottesville murder because they understood that he was really on their side when he said some of them were good people.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-30-2020, 06:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I feel this should be asked, because I'm thinking opinions vary on this.  Is it really accurate to label the Proud Boys as white supremacist?

Good question. I will have to defer to the President’s very specific statement of condemnation of one allegedly white supremacist group instead of the more general, nonspecific condemnation of white supremacy ideology as a whole.

[hollodero]

(09-30-2020, 06:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Title of thread should be changed to:

"Why does he refuse to condemn them the way we want him to"

Hm. I wonder if say Biden was asked to denounce left-wing violent groups, and his response would have been to ask which one, then Antifa is suggested and Biden then told Antifa to "stand down and stand by, but someone has to do something against the right!" - and then the next day, he'd claim he does not know what Antifa is, but that he always has condemned any of that. All while Antifa leaders suggest Biden gave them permission to "**** them up".

Would you criticise everyone from the right who would not be satisfied by that?

[fredtoast]

(09-30-2020, 06:40 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Is it really accurate to label the Proud Boys as white supremacist?

McInnes admits that he hates Muslims.

They chanted "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville.

They commit acts of violence against BLM.

I guess you could split some hairs to defend them, but they are sure close enough to white supremacist for me.

But just for good measure they also hate women and gays.  So they are like "white supremacists plus".

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 06:25 PM)Dill Wrote: And that's the pity, isn't it?

You don't see how or why Trump's coerced, qualified and deflective "condemnations" fall short.

But this guy does:

Joe Biggs, a prominent Proud Boy who has worn shirts declaring “I’m Just Here for the Violence” and celebrating the executions of left-wing Chilean activists thrown from helicopters, posted that Trump’s remarks were permission to “go **** them up.”

“Trump basically said to go **** them up!” Biggs wrote on Parler, a social media network popular with conservatives. “This makes me so happy.”

So you're asserting I'm unlike folks like Joe Biggs; yet, you and those of your ilk are like him? 

[BmorePat87]

(09-30-2020, 07:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McInnes admits that he hates Muslims.

They chanted "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville.

They commit acts of violence against BLM.

I guess you could split some hairs to defend them, but they are sure close enough to white supremacist for me.

But just for good measure they also hate women and gays.  So they are like "white supremacists plus".

Earlier I called them a Western Nationalist group with membership crossover in white supremacist groups specifically because the formal organization doesn't meet the term in my opinion. That doesn't mean that they're not shit bags by any means, though.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 07:09 PM)hollodero Wrote: Hm. I wonder if say Biden was asked to denounce left-wing violent groups, and his response would have been to ask which one, then Antifa is suggested and Biden then told Antifa to "stand down and stand by, but someone has to do something against the right!" - and then the next day, he'd claim he does not know what Antifa is, but that he always has condemned any of that. All while Antifa leaders suggest Biden gave them permission to "**** them up".

Would you criticise everyone from the right who would not be satisfied by that?

We don't have to play make believe.

What did Biden say when Antifa was brought up? 

But to answer your question. Yes, I'd be satisfied.

He said last night that he was against defunding police, he was against the Green deal, ect...

So I take him at him word regardless what "proof" others bring up.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 07:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McInnes admits that he hates Muslims.

They chanted "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville.

They commit acts of violence against BLM.

I guess you could split some hairs to defend them, but they are sure close enough to white supremacist for me.

But just for good measure they also hate women and gays.  So they are like "white supremacists plus".

Seems like they are what they profess to hate.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 07:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: McInnes admits that he hates Muslims.

Did he say he hates Muslims?  Or is this a misquote?

Quote:They chanted "Jews will not replace us" in Charlottesville.

Were they part of the Unite the Right rally?

Quote:They commit acts of violence against BLM.

Actually, antifa to be accurate.  But antifa and BLM routinely commit acts of violence against the police.  Does that mean they all hate the police?

Quote:I guess you could split some hairs to defend them, but they are sure close enough to white supremacist for me.

I'm not talking about splitting hairs, I'm asking if the label is appropriate.  

Quote:But just for good measure they also hate women and gays.  So they are like "white supremacists plus".

They hate women and homosexuals?  I have not heard of this.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-30-2020, 07:04 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Good question. I will have to defer to the President’s very specific statement of condemnation of one allegedly white supremacist group instead of the more general, nonspecific condemnation of white supremacy ideology as a whole.

That doesn't answer my question, but somehow I think the answer doesn't actually matter to you. 

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 07:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you're asserting I'm unlike folks like Joe Biggs; yet, you and those of your ilk are like him? 

Sure Bfine, you are "unlike" Biggs because you didn't get the import of Trump's confounding his answer. 

There. I said it.

And I and those of my "ilk" are like Biggs in that we understood what Trump was doing.

We didn't cherry pick two words and then exclude all the rest, including their actual effect on his far right supporters. 

But I'm unlike Biggs in that I don't defend Trump against "librals." Maybe that's the really important difference here.

[*bfine32*]

(09-30-2020, 08:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Sure Bfine, you are "unlike" Biggs because you didn't get the import of Trump's confounding his answer. 

There. I said it.

And I and those of my "ilk" are like Biggs in that we understood what Trump was doing.

We didn't cherry pick two words and then exclude all the rest, including their actual effect on his far right supporters. 

But I'm unlike Biggs in that I don't defend Trump against "librals."  Maybe that's the really important difference here.

Or maybe I accept an answer such as "I condemn it" as "I condemn it" instead of looking for ways to poke holes in to fit my agenda like folks such as Biggs....

You know the type. 

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 07:09 PM)hollodero Wrote: Hm. I wonder if say Biden was asked to denounce left-wing violent groups, and his response would have been to ask which one, then Antifa is suggested and Biden then told Antifa to "stand down and stand by, but someone has to do something against the right!" - and then the next day, he'd claim he does not know what Antifa is, but that he always has condemned any of that. All while Antifa leaders suggest Biden gave them permission to "**** them up".

Would you criticise everyone from the right who would not be satisfied by that?

LOL I'd say "Look there, the bolded, he said it. Don't know how he can be any plainer!"  

Some folks are never satisfied.

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Or maybe I accept an answer such as "I condemn it" as "I condemn it" instead of looking for ways to holes in to fit my agenda like folks such as Biggs....

You know the type. 

Ho ho, so I should "accept such a (partial) answer" instead of looking at the whole and what follows, including supporters' behavior, and assert that anything that doesn't fit my "agenda" is a mis statement?  

Accept THAT in lieu of Trump demanding Trump do it "my way" and putting out a definitive and incontrovertible denunciation of all white supremacists and fellow travelers--without being coerced?