Why doesn't the gop run better candidates?

[KillerGoose]

(07-28-2023, 12:48 PM)basballguy Wrote: Well are we talking at the primaries or at the general election?  I guess I could've clarify a bit more what i mean.  

I like to believe if I ever voted in a primary where there is more to just policy that I would take character into consideration.  But once the nomination is done and the presidential ballot is set, why does it matter?  I know where they stand on the policies that i firmly believe in.  

Edit:  Also, I said many voters....that was my caveat :)  In my walk of life (which is not in rural america) the circles I operate in professionally and personally have a similar sentiment.

I think I can understand this perspective a little bit more. I don't fully agree with it, but I can at least understand. If someone's position is "Man, this guy is a POS but I do believe in his policies and I don't really have any other options" then it makes sense. I'm sure I could find myself in a position where I wasn't a fan of a candidate personally but supported his election, but it depends on how badly I disliked him personally. For instance, I wouldn't vote for someone that I just found to be abominable simply because they supported policies that I liked. I wouldn't want a person that I disliked so much to lead the country regardless of their platform.

What I tend to struggle with are voters who genuinely don't care how nasty the person is. Racist, xenophobic, hell even rapist. I have ran into people here in Oklahoma that have expressed their thoughts of "don't give a shit what he did, if he ain't a Democrat..." and I just find that thought process to be baffling. That is what I am referring to when I say that I find it to be a bit blind. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-28-2023, 12:14 PM)basballguy Wrote: The thing is....despite what you think you know, many GOP voters DO NOT CARE who the representative is.  Why?  Because we vote with our brains and not our emotions.  We vote for policy and the person.

I don't care if DJT cheated on his wife.  Will he lead the country and support the policies I support?  Then he gets my vote.  

With that said, I really think DeSantis (who is a great leader and excellent candidate) will walk away with the nomination in a landslide and finally get us out of this rut of old people.  Clinton and Obama were in their 40s...i think W was early 50s?  

You don't vote for people you don't like based on their personality (among other things).  You use emotion to vote and that's you're right.

This^^^^

Great people who were more than capable have stayed away from political office due to mudslinging and deep diving into someone's personal history to show the world their skeletons. I don't care who screws who behind closed doors. I do care about someone's direction on where to lead this country. 

[GMDino]

(07-28-2023, 02:21 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think I can understand this perspective a little bit more. I don't fully agree with it, but I can at least understand. If someone's position is "Man, this guy is a POS but I do believe in his policies and I don't really have any other options" then it makes sense. I'm sure I could find myself in a position where I wasn't a fan of a candidate personally but supported his election, but it depends on how badly I disliked him personally. For instance, I wouldn't vote for someone that I just found to be abominable simply because they supported policies that I liked. I wouldn't want a person that I disliked so much to lead the country regardless of their platform.

What I tend to struggle with are voters who genuinely don't care how nasty the person is. Racist, xenophobic, hell even rapist. I have ran into people here in Oklahoma that have expressed their thoughts of "don't give a shit what he did, if he ain't a Democrat..." and I just find that thought process to be baffling. That is what I am referring to when I say that I find it to be a bit blind. 

(07-28-2023, 02:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: This^^^^

Great people who were more than capable have stayed away from political office due to mudslinging and deep diving into someone's personal history to show the world their skeletons. I don't care who screws who behind closed doors. I do care about someone's direction on where to lead this country. 

I can understand looking past some personal flaw or past mistake but let's use Trump who had a well publicized history of not only bad behavior but literally ripping people off.  Running scams, etc.

And people said "Well, he's a republican so I'll vote for him."

Then he loses, refuses to admit he lost, is facing 40 indictments (and counting) for things he admitted to on tape, and he's STILL the favorite in the primaries.

How much can someone look past just because of policy differences?

I'm not a fan of Chris Christie's policies but at least he's honest when he speaks.  There are others trying to break through on the right and they can't sniff double digits because Trump controls such a large voting bloc.

The mudslinging and the all that stuff aside where is the cut off?  Or is it simply R vs D for too many people?

[HarleyDog]

(07-28-2023, 02:46 PM)GMDino Wrote: The mudslinging and the all that stuff aside where is the cut off?  Or is it simply R vs D for too many people?

Voters are in a bad spot. R vs D is so huge that independents don't have a chance. So those who want to vote Ind.  cant out of fear their vote is wasted, which makes R vs D even worse. And, the biggest thing is this: Neither Republican or Democrats are the same party they once were when your daddy's daddy voted for,  and handed down the tradition of voting down party lines. And we wonder why stuffs so eff'd up. Half the people don't even know what their party stands for but know they must vote for them anyway.

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2023, 03:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Voters are in a bad spot. R vs D is so huge that independents don't have a chance. So those who want to vote Ind.  cant out of fear their vote is wasted, which makes R vs D even worse. And, the biggest thing is this: Neither Republican or Democrats are the same party they once were when your daddy's daddy voted for,  and handed down the tradition of voting down party lines. And we wonder why stuffs so eff'd up. Half the people don't even know what their party stands for but know they must vote for them anyway.

Biden seems pretty standard Democrat, particularly when you consider that he ran for president in 1988.  Maybe in a parallel dimension he lost to Bush in 88 and a resurgent Dukakis is the president now. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-28-2023, 03:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Biden seems pretty standard Democrat, particularly when you consider that he ran for president in 1988.  Maybe in a parallel dimension he lost to Bush in 88 and a resurgent Dukakis is the president now. 

If he is, then someone else is running his presidency. I swear, it feels like "feel the Bern" is the POTUS, with a touch of AOC mixed in there somewhere. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2023, 05:18 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: If he is, then someone else is running his presidency. I swear, it feels like "feel the Bern" is the POTUS, with a touch of AOC mixed in there somewhere. 

Biden would be a lot more popular with democrats if this were true. 

[HarleyDog]

(07-28-2023, 05:20 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Biden would be a lot more popular with democrats if this were true. 

Not buying it. He's not popular because he makes them all look bad. 

Here are my thoughts on why I said what I said. Wasn't it Bernie who started the idea of college debt forgiveness? JB avoided that topic until the GA runoffs and then pushed that agenda. As for AOC - Her renewable energy ideas are cute, but someone should explain to these knuckleheads that stuff aint going to happen overnight. I think they're figuring that out though. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2023, 05:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Not buying it. He's not popular because he makes them all look bad. 

Here are my thoughts on why I said what I said. Wasn't it Bernie who started the idea of college debt forgiveness? JB avoided that topic until the GA runoffs and then pushed that agenda. As for AOC - Her renewable energy ideas are cute, but someone should explain to these knuckleheads that stuff aint going to happen overnight. I think they're figuring that out though. 

Renewable energy was a bi partisan idea 50+ years ago but it became political once reagan had the Carter installed solar panels removed from the white house and cast aside as if they were some sort of black magic. 

We are way behind on this energy stuff.  Overnight?  This started 45+ years ago.


We've talked for pages about student loan stuff.  That's not as ultra left as you think, but it was a bit of a swing for the disappointed D voters, yes.    

[HarleyDog]

(07-28-2023, 05:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Renewable energy was a bi partisan idea 50+ years ago but it became political once reagan had the Carter installed solar panels removed from the white house and cast aside as if they were some sort of black magic. 

We are way behind on this energy stuff.  Overnight?  This started 45+ years ago.


We've talked for pages about student loan stuff.  That's not as ultra left as you think, but it was a bit of a swing for the disappointed D voters, yes.    

I was referring to "The Green New Deal." It seemed to me that was when the big push began.

[*Nately120*]

(07-28-2023, 05:41 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I was referring to "The Green New Deal." It seemed to me that was when the big push began.

The GND has about as much bi partisan support as one could expect in this contentious political culture. 

[Dill]

(07-28-2023, 12:14 PM)basballguy Wrote: The thing is....despite what you think you know, many GOP voters DO NOT CARE who the representative is.  Why?  Because we vote with our brains and not our emotions.  We vote for policy and the person.

I don't care if DJT cheated on his wife.  Will he lead the country and support the policies I support?  Then he gets my vote.  

With that said, I really think DeSantis (who is a great leader and excellent candidate) will walk away with the nomination in a landslide and finally get us out of this rut of old people.  Clinton and Obama were in their 40s...i think W was early 50s?  

You don't vote for people you don't like based on their personality (among other things).  You use emotion to vote and that's you're right.

Wife cheating ranks below some considerations for me as well.

But mocking your own rape victim on a national stage--well, I'd have drawn a line well before that one. 

I don't just consider policy when I cast my vote: I am also concerned about competence and judgment, if that counts as voting for the "person." 

[samhain]

(07-28-2023, 11:56 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: This is actually a decent topic, as the GOP should have easily picked up the PA and GA seats.  GA because Georgia is still a red state and PA because Fetterman was a god awful candidate.  Sadly, no one to the right of Mao is going to think the actual intent of this thread is to have an honest discussion on the topic.

The answer is really easy.  It's a two-word one.

THE BASE.

[NATI BENGALS]

(07-28-2023, 01:37 PM)basballguy Wrote: I'll fully admit I'm out of touch with the MAGA movement.  I thought it was fun in 2016 and a nice break from the "same ole"....I'd be disappointed if DJT somehow gets the nomination, but I'd still likely vote for him even if I don't want to.  

How could there be a worse choice for POTUS than a guy who attempted to end democracy in the USA?

There is zero logic involved when someone claims to love America and then says they would vote for trump in 2024.

[basballguy]

(07-29-2023, 12:25 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: How could there be a worse choice for POTUS than a guy who attempted to end democracy in the USA?

There is zero logic involved when someone claims to love America and then says they would vote for trump in 2024.

Zero logic huh? You may be ok with being poor and struggling in life (I don’t know that you are, just saying), but I’m not. So I’m going to vote for whomever allows me to best provide for my family with the policies they support.

It’s about the policy not the person.

It’s not rocket science dude. You’re smart enough to know that’s how many people think.

Now separately, (since you may bring up things are going oddly ok right now) I’m completely befuddled on the market lol. I’ll find my way over to that thread next week for discussion.

[*pally*]

There are plenty of things we can do to improve the quality of people running. It won’t happen over night if at all unfortunately as Republicans and Democrats still write the voting rules for everybody.

1) end political gerrymandering, the outcome of far too many elections are foretold simply by knowing what district someone runs in. Gerrymandering leads to extremist candidates being enshrined into office…on both sides. Its 2023 for goodness sakes all districts should be drawn by computer
2) non party voters should not be locked out of preliminary elections. The wider the voting pool, the less extreme the candidate
3) better yet do away with party specific “nominating” primary elections. Go to jungle style balloting with all candidates on a single ballot. Top 2 go to the general election as a runoff unless 1 candidate gets over 50%
4) ranked choice voting
5) don’t put party affiliations on the ballots
6) loosen the rules for 3rd party candidates to get on the ballots

Bad people make bad leaders and generally in the long run make bad policy

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(07-29-2023, 02:10 AM)pally Wrote: There are plenty of things we can do to improve the quality of people running.  It won’t happen over night if at all unfortunately as Republicans and Democrats still write the voting rules for everybody.

1) end political gerrymandering, the outcome of far too many elections are foretold simply by knowing what district someone runs in.  Gerrymandering leads to extremist candidates being enshrined into office…on both sides. Its 2023 for goodness sakes all districts should be drawn by computer
2) non party voters should not be locked out of preliminary elections.  The wider the voting pool, the less extreme the candidate
3) better yet do away with party specific “nominating” primary elections.  Go to jungle style balloting with all candidates on a single ballot.  Top 2 go to the general election as a runoff unless 1 candidate gets over 50%
4) ranked choice voting
5) don’t put party affiliations on the ballots
6) loosen the rules for 3rd party candidates to get on the ballots

Bad people make bad leaders and generally in the long run make bad policy

It's B/c the GOP is a cult of personality. Many of the GOP in Congress wish Trump would simply go away, but they're too afraid of their base and being primaried to suggest otherwise.  

[NATI BENGALS]

(07-29-2023, 12:43 AM)basballguy Wrote: Zero logic huh?  You may be ok with being poor and struggling in life (I don’t know that you are, just saying), but I’m not.  So I’m going to vote for whomever allows me to best provide for my family with the policies they support.

It’s about the policy not the person.  

It’s not rocket science dude.  You’re smart enough to know that’s how many people think.

Now separately, (since you may bring up things are going oddly ok right now) I’m completely befuddled on the market lol.  I’ll find my way over to that thread next week for discussion.

Yea. The policy of destroying democracy. It couldn't be more clear. I promise there would be a lot more poor and struggling people if 1/6 and the trump coup attempt were successful.

I'm not sure if you remember the trajectory of our country at the end of the trump years. But toilet paper shortages and empty shelves were a thing. To go along with firing a bunch of high level key government personnel who weren't "loyal" enough as he attempted to end your Constitution.

[M.W.]

(07-29-2023, 12:25 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: How could there be a worse choice for POTUS than a guy who attempted to end democracy in the USA?

There is zero logic involved when someone claims to love America and then says they would vote for trump in 2024.

This is so true.  I wouldn't be surprised if trump wins the republican primary from prison (where he belongs). This is laughable, the man who literally tried to destroy democracy in the USA is the clear choice of the GOP. I believe the base is just hateful and they like how hateful and criminal trump is, if Desantis wants to become more popular with the base he should rape a child or maybe shoot a person with darker skin. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-29-2023, 02:41 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Yea. The policy of destroying democracy. It couldn't be more clear. I promise there would be a lot more poor and struggling people if 1/6 and the trump coup attempt were successful.

I'm not sure if you remember the trajectory of our country at the end of the trump years. But toilet paper shortages and empty shelves were a thing. To go along with firing a bunch of high level key government personnel who weren't "loyal" enough as he attempted to end your Constitution.

Yeah, this is my mindset.  My reaction to Trump winning in 2016 was "Meh, whatever, let's see how it goes" and by 2020 I realized he was like a backup QB you want to see until he starts playing and that he needed to be replaced with a middling veteran QB ala Biden.

Trump's reaction to losing 2020 and his current 2024 campaign have me ready to vote democrat for the first time since 2008.  I understand the casual sort of support or not caring about Trump's personal stuff and actions in 2016 and even in 2020, but I can't imagine how anyone could have casual support of Trump in 2024.  By this point his entire selling point is that a vote for Trump in 2024 is a vote for Trump avoiding legal troubles and dismantling the checks and balances that were designed to keep the president restricted and at least somewhat beholden to the will of the people.

Again, we all get our votes so do as you wish, but it's odd hearing people still saying that "Trump is going to make life better for us by fixing the economy" when he is laying out a plan to put our country on the path of less stable countries that aren't known for the amazing lives of the peasant class.  But now it's just "Trump needs to be president, and the president when it's Trump needs to be given more power."  Kudos to you if you can get "my life will be better" out of that...I'm skeptical.


the narratives as I sees em'

TRUMP 2016 - let's run this country like a business, nice guys finish last, America first
TRUMP 2020 - keep the above going
TRUMP 2024 - keep Trump from being persecuted/prosecuted, allow Trump to alter our system of government to suit his needs, only Trump can do this, it's all for Trump, he's a republican so you know...economy better or something.  But main point = give power to Trump.