Why is it inhumane

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 12:41 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: C'mon don't be oblivious to what's happening here.  Being a lawyer you should know what prison is about... I'd hope.

I work with ex-cons but certainly am no expert.  They do give you some insight though.  Again something you should know.

Yes.  I am a criminal defense attorney so I know a lot about the criminal justice system.

For example I know that what you are suggesting has been tried in the past and it failed.  Plus it would cost more money.

That is why I prefer "common knowledge" to "common sense".  

[BengalsRocker]

(03-20-2016, 01:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  I am a criminal defense attorney so I know a lot about the criminal justice system.

For example I know that what you are suggesting has been tried in the past and it failed.  Plus it would cost more money.

That is why I prefer "common knowledge" to "common sense".  

Fair enough.

I never said it was a "new" concept.

It certainly would cost more to have to supervise inmates and keep them working.

As you know, there are some people who actually volunteer for work when incarcerated.

Mostly because they want to have purpose or do something with the time.  Sometimes for other deviant reasons.

The system is flawed.  There is no denying that.  Some prisons have to be overhauled because of corruption within.

Just the fact that inmates can influence others and have a system within the prisons shows that they have too much time on their hands.

Those idle hands do nothing but create problems.  That is my opinion though.

You have good inmates that participate in worthy programs so I'm not condemning them or the reform process.

Its those who choose to do something other than to improve or change their ways of thinking I have issue with.

They should not have that choice...  and if they do choose to opt out, they should be put to hard labor.

There should be consequences.  No consequences...  what's the point?  You might as well put them on the streets.

[*Nately120*]

Meh, if the incarcerated are working won't that put people who want to do menial jobs WITHOUT being awful people out of work? Don't we already have for-profit prisons using prisoners are ultra-cheap telemarketers, etc? What the hell am I supposed to do when I get my useless bachelor's degree and need to make 9 dollars an hour bugging people on the phone if a zillion inmates can do the same thing for pennies on the dollar?

It sort of reminds me of grade school when we had to do science projects in 7th and 8th grade to present at one of the local colleges for awards and ratings and the chance to go to the state competition and so on. I wasn't the greatest student, but I noticed the day of the competition that the smart kids who had parents who went to college had some high-end presentations and materials, and the kids who got detention had received a lot of individual help and college-level supplies from the school's principal. I recall looking at the smart kids, and now the dumb kids who liked to cause trouble and thinking, well nuts to this middle-ground stuff. I either have to get smart or set a fire or something next year.

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 02:02 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Fair enough.

I never said it was a "new" concept.

It certainly would cost more to have to supervise inmates and keep them working.

As you know, there are some people who actually volunteer for work when incarcerated.

Mostly because they want to have purpose or do something with the time.  Sometimes for other deviant reasons.

The system is flawed.  There is no denying that.  Some prisons have to be overhauled because of corruption within.

Just the fact that inmates can influence others and have a system within the prisons shows that they have too much time on their hands.

Those idle hands do nothing but create problems.  That is my opinion though.

You have good inmates that participate in worthy programs so I'm not condemning them or the reform process.

Its those who choose to do something other than to improve or change their ways of thinking I have issue with.

They should not have that choice...  and if they do choose to opt out, they should be put to hard labor.

There should be consequences.  No consequences...  what's the point?  You might as well put them on the streets.

Here is the difference between us.  You have a "sense" of what is happening.  I have "knowledge".

Prisoners got into just as much trouble and tried to escape just as often (usually more often) when they were subject to constant hard labor.  The idea that "idle hands" is the basis for these problems is a perfect example of the difference between "common sense" and "common knowledge".

The commissary system and the cost of phone privileges are ways for the jails to make more money.  i don't agree with them, but that has zero to do with hard labor for inmates.

Prisoners volunteer for work details only when they get sentence credits, are granted a "trustee" status, or get a chance to get outside of the jail for a while (a taste of freedom).

You have already agreed that going to jail is a punishment so i have no idea what you even mean about "no consequences".   

[fredtoast]

The desire to make prisoners subject to hard labor is exactly like the desire to boil a woman to death for her crime. Both are based on emotion rather than logic.

Some people don't care what works. All they want is something that satisfies their primitive desires.

[*Nately120*]

(03-20-2016, 02:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The desire to make prisoners subject to hard labor is exactly like the desire to boil a woman to death for her crime.  Both are based on emotion rather than logic.

Some people don't care what works.  All they want is something that satisfies their primitive desires.

As long as someone else has to do it.  This country lost its collective mind over seeing Ray Rice knock his awful fiance out...I can only imagine what a video of a woman being boiled to death would do to the masses.

It just seems to be our culture.  We can visualize ourselves as heroes.  The one who shoots the rampaging shooter, the guy who blows away the intruder in his home, the law-abiding citizen who doesn't need the threat of torture and grisly death to keep him in line but knows other people do, etc.  

When it comes to guns, violence, killing, life or death situations, or basically being able to straight up murder someone I really think our populace is living in a fantasy world.  Then again, I'm just a cynic.

[GMDino]

(03-20-2016, 02:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: As long as someone else has to do it.  This country lost its collective mind over seeing Ray Rice knock his awful fiance out...I can only imagine what a video of a woman being boiled to death would do to the masses.

It just seems to be our culture.  We can visualize ourselves as heroes.  The one who shoots the rampaging shooter, the guy who blows away the intruder in his home, the law-abiding citizen who doesn't need the threat of torture and grisly death to keep him in line but knows other people do, etc.  

When it comes to guns, violence, killing, life or death situations, or basically being able to straight up murder someone I really think our populace is living in a fantasy world.  Then again, I'm just a cynic.

I just read a story about a teacher in New York who got fined $300 for showing her middle school class an ISIS beheading video.

We want to get outraged and get revenge...we don't want to see it.

[BengalsRocker]

(03-20-2016, 02:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have already agreed that going to jail is a punishment so i have no idea what you even mean about "no consequences".   

If not willing to reform or change ways of thinking.

Thug outside.  Thug inside.

Commissary replaces drugs.  It is dealt and used like a tool within the jail system.

Yes, the prisons make money from it.  It also causes a lot of turmoil too though.

Prisoners do shave time and get other benefits from work details/volunteer programs.

Consequences?  Yes, I want them to suffer if they want to just wallow in their ways. 

That is the consequence aside from being detained.

[*Nately120*]

(03-20-2016, 02:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: I just read a story about a teacher in New York who got fined $300 for showing her middle school class an ISIS beheading video.

We want to get outraged and get revenge...we don't want to see it.

We have the luxury of having the technological ease of impersonal violence/killing afforded to us.  The idea of people who claim to follow the teachings of Jesus winning campaign points by promising to drop more bombs on people in (insert evil country here) than his opponents seems logical, for some reason. I mean, I'm not killing anyone...I'm just voting for a guy who will tell other people to kill people. I'm in the clear on this one when I find myself standing in front of Jesus on judgement day!

I also notice the way people view violence changes depending on the method, as if that really matters...right?  We all heard people who claim they'd have no issue with fatally shooting someone in their house, but if you tell them "I prefer to use a sledgehammer and break the guy's legs and arms and then smash his skull to pieces until he's dead" that person who 100% KNOWS he can/will end a man's life without hesitation will probably think you're pretty odd.  Again, people seem to think "shooting someone" is just a fairly simple thing to do and to deal with.  Yep, I killed someone...so be it.  What's on TV? Hell, what if you tell people that a dog wandered into your yard and was growling and you shot and killed it. If you act too proud of that people might think you are a psycho.

I'm fairly sure this sort of technological detachment from killing was discussed in Catch-22 (or was this during my psychology schooling?) where the bombardiers reported that dropping bombs on "targets" from high enough that you can't see, or ultimately identify the targets as individual people made it easier to shrug it off as a task, rather than a direct action to end life.

Again, I've known too many people who actually have "pre-loaded" catchphrases they plan to use when they shoot and kill someone.  We're a culture raised by an inordinately bizarre set of movies, right?

[Bengalzona]

(03-20-2016, 02:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The desire to make prisoners subject to hard labor is exactly like the desire to boil a woman to death for her crime.  Both are based on emotion rather than logic.

Some people don't care what works.  All they want is something that satisfies their primitive desires.

I'm no Sheriff Joe fan (Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio). But I will say one thing: his "chain gangs" (in quotes because there are no chains as such) do an excellent job of cleaning trash off of the roads throughout the county. It is menial work, but not hard labor. The prisoners are non-violent offenders with good prison records who are there voluntarily to knock time off of their sentences. They treat them well while they are working with water, food, breaks, etc. Joe has had a couple of programs like that that appear to work and not be over the top. Unfortunately, he has some other policies I don't agree with.

I don't think you will find cleaner roadsides in any county in the nation.