Why is it inhumane

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-19-2016, 02:34 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: When I look at punitive situations like this I think of the cost vs. benefit.  Is there any value that anyone gets out of this woman suffering?  What is the point of imprisoning/killing/boiling her?  Is it to stop her activity, or is it meant to equalize some sort of fictitious playing field?  Would boiling her alive "send a message" to other people crazy enough to boil a child alive?  I just don't see how anyone gains anything of value by having this woman suffer.  The point of her punishment should be to ensure that she never does anything to harm innocent people again.

I get you on the capital punishment thing.  The ethics of whether killing someone outright is more humane than a lifetime of incarceration is a whole other ball of wax.  Not sure that I get the "sin" part though.  It's not a sin to think about, is it?(I seriously don't know.  My religion is skepticism)


We actually pay people in the CIA to do this.  I believe that they probably do Abu Ghraib and the Barney song on repeat type of stuff waaaaay more often than most people would care to know.  

Yea but waterboarding sleep deprivation and making someone sit on their knees for extended periods is childs play compared to boiling somebody or cutting of limbs etc..

[GMDino]

(03-19-2016, 10:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You have me confused with someone that "wants" to kill someone. I am comfortable in my religion and my covictions. Jesus did not stop the Death penalty of the two men than were executed with him. As I believer I am sure he could have stopped this or at least spoken out to the injustice of it.

If you ever want to know what a Christian should believe the most reliable source is an atheist.

Okay....All I did was answer the question you posed.

I did say "your" but I meant the general "you" not you (Larry) specifically as I took it as a general question that got a general answer.


If you ask what should you "PERSONALLY" be against the death penalty I could not answer that although the answer would be similar in my opinion.  And even with that I can't say what your individual belief is.

Now, next topic:

The story of the two other criminals dying next to Jesus help fulfill a prophecy.

Jesus spoke out against stoning did he not?  He is quoted as saying to turn the other cheek when slighted.  He healed the ear of the roman sentry who had it cut off in one story of the Passion.

I've spoken to atheists...they seem to think that Christians talk a good game about what others should do vs what THEY should do when the choices come to close to home.  I stand by the "nobody is perfect" when it comes to sticking to your religious beliefs in your own life (General "your"...anybody...not you specifically).  I am well aware of how I SHOULD act based on the religion I was brought up learning.  I know that many times I do not act that way because either I think I was taught a poor way of acting or I just fail.


If you meant to imply that *I* am an atheist you would be wrong.  But that's for a different thread.  We got far enough off track already.

[BengalsRocker]

Hard labor.

Make that jail sentence worse than just confinement.

I know that's an old fashioned way of thinking.

Does it work?

Who cares.

At least being imprisoned would make working even in the lowest of jobs in the outside world seem like a dream.

Not having repeat offenders who think going to jail/prison is a joke... that is unless they like busting their ass for nothing everyday.

As far as eye for an eye. Nah. Not for it.

[*Nately120*]

(03-18-2016, 11:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What equates to "talking a big game" about capital punishment? 

I'm more talking about people in this country romanticizing the idea of torturing, killing, shooting, and/or watching people die horrible deaths.  I don't care about capital punishment, I'm just wondering if people who think this woman should be boiled alive think they'd be able to watch such a thing. Would you enjoy it? Even if this woman is guilty as hell, would being able to enjoy seeing a human being boiled alive speak well to my personality if I watched with a sense of "this is just."

I know people who talk about how much they are totally going to shoot people who intrude and/or threaten them, etc.  I also know people who have shot and killed people for similar reasons and they are far less braggadocios about the whole situation.  I think our society talks a big game when it comes to being able to kill people with a smile..we've just seen too many movies.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(03-19-2016, 03:57 PM)P NATI BENGALS Wrote: Yea but waterboarding sleep deprivation and making someone sit on their knees for extended periods is childs play compared to boiling somebody or cutting of limbs etc..

I've heard interviews of former CIA members who've claimed that electrodes being fixed to a target's genitals has been a standard procedure for decades. There are photos from Abu Graib of people with electrodes that are attached to their hands and numerous accounts of men being forced into committing sexual acts on each other. I'm not so sure that this qualifies as child's play, and this is just the stuff that we know about!

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-19-2016, 05:51 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I've heard interviews of former CIA members who've claimed that electrodes being fixed to a target's genitals has been a standard procedure for decades. There are photos from Abu Graib of people with electrodes that are attached to their hands and numerous account so fun men being forced into committing sexual acts on each other. I'm not so sure that this qualifies as child's play, and this is just the stuff that we know about!

Momentary pain is acceptable to me when it comes to extracting information that could save countless lives. The sex act thing is vile. 

When you have an enemy combatant that has valuable information we have to have something other than saying please as a means of getting them to talk. War is totally different than punishing a criminal imo.

[*Nately120*]

(03-19-2016, 06:57 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Momentary pain is acceptable to me when it comes to extracting information that could save countless lives. The sex act thing is vile. 

When you have an enemy combatant that has valuable information we have to have something other than saying please as a means of getting them to talk. War is totally different than punishing a criminal imo.

I may be wrong, but I think the main knock against the effectiveness of torture is that the information gathered may not be accurate. As in, people will say all sorts of things while being tortured.

[fredtoast]

(03-19-2016, 05:51 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote:  electrodes being fixed to a target's genitals has been a standard procedure for decades. There are photos from Abu Graib of people with electrodes that are attached to their hands and numerous accounts of men being forced into committing sexual acts on each other.

Actually this sounds like an average Saturday night at my place.

[*bfine32*]

(03-19-2016, 05:51 PM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: I've heard interviews of former CIA members who've claimed that electrodes being fixed to a target's genitals has been a standard procedure for decades. There are photos from Abu Graib of people with electrodes that are attached to their hands and numerous accounts of men being forced into committing sexual acts on each other. I'm not so sure that this qualifies as child's play, and this is just the stuff that we know about!

We  should just be more humane and execute rhem

[*Nately120*]

(03-19-2016, 11:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We  should just be more humane and execute rhem

If you ask me, America got too soft once we stopped dropping atomic bombs on entire populations.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-19-2016, 11:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you ask me, America got too soft once we stopped dropping atomic bombs on entire populations.

Thats why im voting for Drumpf. Its time to start going after families and quit looking like wimps. We have to show our military power. Mexico first. I say drive the tanks in first before we build the wall.

[JustWinBaby]

(03-19-2016, 10:47 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What does imprisoning her accomplish?

It's a sentence.  And it's cheaper than trying to execute someone.

Capital punishment is more expensive than a life term, and it's not fool-proof.  And in more than a few instances, execution lets them off easy.

And multiple, repeatable studies show capital punishment is not a deterrent.  So how is there a logical, rational case for it?!?

Not to mention....victims have said it's really not closure or satisfaction.

[Rotobeast]

(03-19-2016, 11:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you ask me, America got too soft once we stopped dropping atomic bombs on entire populations.

The atomic bombs were more humane than the firebombing that Lemay had been dishing out, beforehand.

[fredtoast]

(03-19-2016, 04:38 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Does it work?

Who cares.  

Ian't this Trump's campaign motto?

"Hey, it sound's good, and that is all that matters."

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 05:53 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote:  So how is there a logical, rational case for it?!?

There is none.  The only argument in favor of it is based on the emotion.  This thread is a perfect example.  We have a person not just saying he is in favor of capital punishment, but that he is also in favor torturing a person to death.  It is all about primitive bloodlust.  The OP asks why it is "inhumane" when the very answer lies in the word he used.  It is "inhumane" because "humans" don't function based on visceral "animal like" instincts.  That is one of the big things that separates humans from animals.

And this also explains why some of the most religious people in this country are also the ones most in favor of dropping bombs on innocent babies, killing the families of terrorists, and torturing people to death as part of our criminal justice system.  Religious people reject logic to follow their emotions.  The same reason they accept religion is the same reason they are in favor of inhuman acts of violence on other humans.

[jfkbengals]

(03-18-2016, 10:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wonder how many people who think this woman should be boiled alive would be able to actually watch it happening.  

So many people talk a big game when it comes to death and killing.

Probably most.

Just over 100 years ago people still gathered to watch at the gallows to watch hangings and firing squads in the town square.  Not much earlier than that there were still people burned alive at the stake in public.

(03-19-2016, 11:05 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Which question was the "original"?  Pretty much every post you have made in this thread is a question.

Is that not the Socratic method for learning and discovering the truth?

[BengalsRocker]

(03-20-2016, 10:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Ian't this Trump's campaign motto?

"Hey, it sound's good, and that is all that matters."

Screw Trump.  This isn't about politics it's about common sense.

Better than 3 hots and a cot... sleep, read, watch TV, play cards, make/use drugs.

Better than having "store" surplus which is bartered and used as currency.

Better than giving inmates weights to lift.

Tire them out so it decreases aggression.

Still provide education and counseling because all are not lost causes.

Yes there are better solutions than what is currently in place. 

[GMDino]

(03-20-2016, 11:02 AM)jfkbengals Wrote: Probably most.

Just over 100 years ago people still gathered to watch at the gallows to watch hangings and firing squads in the town square.  Not much earlier than that there were still people burned alive at the stake in public.



Is that not the Socratic method for learning and discovering the truth?

I don't think there would be that many.

I think a hanging or a guillotine, while still a gruesome death, is a lot quicker than listening to a human scream while being boiled alive.

I always thought that the Socratic method was to ask questions of someone because they already know the answer and just don't realize it yet?

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 11:03 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Screw Trump.  This isn't about politics it's about common sense.

The problem is that you believe in common "sense" instead of common "knowledge".  "Common sense" gives us argument like "If everyone had a gun their would be no violence", and "If the rich people get richer it will trickle down to the poor people".  "Common sense" is good when used properly.  but when it is used instead of actual knowledge it is a bad thing.  And it leads directly to comments like "Does it work?  Who cares."

Being in jail is not the holiday think it is.  that is why everyone in jail wants out sdo bad and why criminals try to avoid going to jail.

You talk about trying something "new" then suggest a widely used method from the past that was a proven failure.  It takes more manpower and force to get hard labor out of prisoners.  That costs more.  It also doesn't do anything to reduce the level of aggression between inmates.  It costs more and accomplishes nothing.  It has been tried and failed.  So what kind of "common sense" tells you it will work if we bring it back?

[BengalsRocker]

(03-20-2016, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem is that you believe in common "sense" instead of common "knowledge".  "Common sense" gives us argument like "If everyone had a gun their would be no violence", and "If the rich people get richer it will trickle down to the poor people".  "Common sense" is good when used properly.  but when it is used instead of actual knowledge it is a bad thing.  And it leads directly to comments like "Does it work?  Who cares."

Being in jail is not the holiday think it is.  that is why everyone in jail wants out sdo bad and why criminals try to avoid going to jail.

You talk about trying something "new" then suggest a widely used method from the past that was a proven failure.  It takes more manpower and force to get hard labor out of prisoners.  That costs more.  It also doesn't do anything to reduce the level of aggression between inmates.  It costs more and accomplishes nothing.  It has been tried and failed.  So what kind of "common sense" tells you it will work if we bring it back?

It is not a holiday.  But it isn't as hard for repeat offenders either.

They want out because no matter how it's spun...  it still lack of freedom.

The time spent should be hard.  Not networked versions of the street.

C'mon don't be oblivious to what's happening here.  Being a lawyer you should know what prison is about... I'd hope.

I work with ex-cons but certainly am no expert.  They do give you some insight though.  Again something you should know.

Store is bullshit.  So is the system.  Inmates work it, try to manipulate it.

"The who cares?" line goes for better than lounging, watching TV, and playing cards.  Certainly better than lifting weights.

That place should be just north of hell.  A place no one would ever want to go back to and no room for manipulation.