Why is life expectancy way lower in the US than the other civilized countries

[*Nately120*]

(09-01-2023, 01:58 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Your right. I forgot. All those European citizens are just puppets to their regime. Geezus Artuto, calm down. I was just kidding. 

What?  I'm just saying the best way to get people to do stuff in this country is to tell them to NOT do it.  Add in that our country really hates making corporations not poison us and how much we love the idea of healthcare bankrupting us and it's a three strikes and you're out kinda situation.

[HarleyDog]

(09-01-2023, 02:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: What?  I'm just saying the best way to get people to do stuff in this country is to tell them to NOT do it.  Add in that our country really hates making corporations not poison us and how much we love the idea of healthcare bankrupting us and it's a three strikes and you're out kinda situation.

Dude, I understood what you said. I'm in a good mood today so was having fun with my reply. Nothing more, nothing less. And you are right, I am like one of those people who doesn't want it until you tell me I can't have it. I'm 56yrs old and you would think I would be better than that by now. Although I'm slightly better than I was in my younger years, I will always have improvement to do in that category.

[basballguy]

(09-01-2023, 09:15 AM)pally Wrote: You can’t ignore the health care expenditures it has a direct impact on life expectancy

1) lack of universal healthcare
2) unfettered gun violence affecting younger people
3) opioid and other substance abuse

Not enough people die from these things to move the needle 5 years.  And "lack of universal healthcare" is not a mortality stat tracked anywhere that I can find.  Curious if this is speculation (which we all do) or if you came across some hard data.

I did some actual napkin math based upon 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/guns/data-details/#:~:text=Gun%2Drelated%20assault%20death%20rates,males%20age%2075%20and%20older.

and 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/drugoverdoses/data-details/

If you just eliminate guns and opioids (and other substances) from the world as if they never existed, it would move the needle MAYBE a year?  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 03:47 PM)basballguy Wrote: Not enough people die from these things to move the needle 5 years.  And "lack of universal healthcare" is not a mortality stat tracked anywhere that I can find.  Curious if this is speculation (which we all do) or if you came across some hard data.

I did some actual napkin math based upon 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/guns/data-details/#:~:text=Gun%2Drelated%20assault%20death%20rates,males%20age%2075%20and%20older.

and 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/drugoverdoses/data-details/

If you just eliminate guns and opioids (and other substances) from the world as if they never existed, it would move the needle MAYBE a year?  

Thank you for addressing this.  I was not going to as I'm already the "gun guy" for many.  In a nation of over 300 million the number of people killed every year by firearms is statistically insignificant.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

The CD shows 3.46 million deaths in 2021. 

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/26/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/

Pew lists close to 21k firearms related homicides in 2021, which is a bit high IMO (thanks for that Democratic party btw).  The power of math reveals that these homicides accounted for .007% of deaths, i.e. 7/1,000 of a percentage.  As you say, not even close to enough to move the needle in a significant manner.  Of course, this in no way downplays the tragedy of a murder, but they are statistically insignificant when calculating life expectancy.  Especially when you consider that the vast majority of the victims are tied to a some very specific demographics.

But Democratic party talking points will inevitably come up when this topic is discussed, no matter how utterly false they are.

[*Nately120*]

Gun deaths would probably go up if Biden told people not to play Russian roulette.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 04:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Gun deaths would probably go up if Biden told people not to play Russian roulette.

On an actually serious note, they would absolutely go down if several large urban areas had DA's who actually prosecuted hard core criminals instead of turning the justice system into a revolving door.

[CKwi88]

(09-01-2023, 03:47 PM)basballguy Wrote: Not enough people die from these things to move the needle 5 years.  And "lack of universal healthcare" is not a mortality stat tracked anywhere that I can find.  Curious if this is speculation (which we all do) or if you came across some hard data.

I did some actual napkin math based upon 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/guns/data-details/#:~:text=Gun%2Drelated%20assault%20death%20rates,males%20age%2075%20and%20older.

and 

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/drugoverdoses/data-details/

If you just eliminate guns and opioids (and other substances) from the world as if they never existed, it would move the needle MAYBE a year?  

That's an oversimplification. The argument isn't that the three bullet points are the cause of death, but that they contribute to a shorter life expectancy. 

Your life can be shortened by drugs/gun violence/lack of universal health care even if they are not the direct cause of death via overdose/murder etc.

[*Nately120*]

(09-01-2023, 04:50 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: On an actually serious note, they would absolutely go down if several large urban areas had DA's who actually prosecuted hard core criminals instead of turning the justice system into a revolving door.

Ok, well they'd go up if Biden told people not to wander around large urban areas that have DA's who have turned the justice system into a revolving door.

Ted Cruz would be like "Kiss my aaaaaassss, I'm joining the Bloods!"

[samhain]

Eating is literally a competitive sport in the US. It's what many consider their main leisure activity, ie going out to eat/drink.

People are also sedentary as hell. Yes, there's a large fitness industry, but that's not as prevalent with lower income Americans. Spending a significant portion of one's time exercising is a privilege afforded by making decent money. We also drive pretty much everywhere. I'm told that people walk more in European cities because gas is expensive and the parking absolutely sucks. Parking sometimes sucks here, but not bad enough to deter.

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 09:54 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yeah, Stone and Pally hit it. U.S. citizens are generally overweight to obese. Nearly half of the country is obese or worse. Healthcare is quite expensive, even with insurance, and many people have built up this resistance to going to the doctor. Add in a drug epidemic and gun violence and it makes sense that it is lower.

I doubt Americans or more obese than Germans, and they've got at least two years on us.

Healthcare may be the main difference.

Germany doesn't have universal healthcare, but they do require that everyone be covered,  and so
offer non-profit insurance options. People cannot be excluded for per-existing conditions.

The access is very good as well, or was when I lived there. Coming back to the U.S. I walked into
a mass of complicated forms and waiting lists. And generally double the cost for half the coverage.

(Surprised we haven't heard any stories yet about Canadians who come to the US because our
care is so much better.)

[Millhouse]

One of the crazy things over here is that in the last few years it seems there has been a push to make it almost political incorrect to shame overweight people, and even some commercials celebrates it. I think it was Bill Mahr that said how many obese 80 year olds do you ever see or hear about?

But yeah lack of universal healthcare doesn't help, but IMO it's more about the powerful food industry over here and their lobbying making sure they can get away with big profits while packaging their unhealthy 'slop' in the middle aisles of grocery stores that people buy up instead of fresh veggies, fruits, and meats that aren't processed. And of course fast food for the masses as it's cheaper and easy.

[*Nately120*]

(09-01-2023, 06:30 PM)Millhouse Wrote: One of the crazy things over here is that in the last few years it seems there has been a push to make it almost political incorrect to shame overweight people, and even some commercials celebrates it. I think it was Bill Mahr that said how many obese 80 year olds do you ever see or hear about?

You should watch My 600 Lb life if you think this country is too kind to fat people.  From what I can tell the movement of fat positivity is headed up by a few grifters (go figure) and a bunch of people who are too young to realize their rapidly diminishing youth is the sole reason they aren't feeling the effects of being overweight yet.  It's similar to people I knew who smoked when they were teenagers and they felt fine.  Now?  Well, they sound like they are 80 and have lungs full of butter that they just can't expel.  


Side note, I realized there are two Simpsons jokes where Bart and Lisa imagine themselves being obese and they each have southern/hick accents that magically appeared...awesome.  I know neither apply to modern times, but I just love this clip.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 06:06 PM)Dill Wrote: (Surprised we haven't heard any stories yet about Canadians who come to the US because our
care is so much better.)

I'd hate to disappoint you.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-health-care-access-1.6574184

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care#:~:text=Canadians%20seek%20treatment%20abroad,care%20abroad%20the%20previous%20year.

[KillerGoose]

(09-01-2023, 06:06 PM)Dill Wrote: I doubt Americans or more obese than Germans, and they've got at least two years on us.

Healthcare may be the main difference.

Germany doesn't have universal healthcare, but they do require that everyone be covered,  and so
offer non-profit insurance options. People cannot be excluded for per-existing conditions.

The access is very good as well, or was when I lived there. Coming back to the U.S. I walked into
a mass of complicated forms and waiting lists. And generally double the cost for half the coverage.

(Surprised we haven't heard any stories yet about Canadians who come to the US because our
care is so much better.)

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but Americans are significantly more obese than Germans. Source. According to this data, the United States is the most obese country in the world. 

[Brownshoe]

(09-01-2023, 08:21 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Just asking.



3 years less than the closest one.


And why is it decreasing yet ?

Don't pay attention to health expenditure, it's not the point, it's just the graphic I found.

Unlike the countries on the list if a baby dies at birth we count that as a death. My most recent child had FGR and I was doing research on it (he was born fine without any complications), and most other countries don't count that as a death but the USA does. I all stillbirths count towards deaths in America, but most other countries that I've seen outside of the USA doesn't count them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-01-2023, 08:15 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Unlike the countries on the list if a baby dies at birth we count that as a death. My most recent child had FGR and I was doing research on it (he was born fine without any complications), and most other countries don't count that as a death but the USA does. I all stillbirths count towards deaths in America, but most other countries that I've seen outside of the USA doesn't count them.

I'd absolutely need a source for this claim.  

[Brownshoe]

(09-01-2023, 08:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd absolutely need a source for this claim.  

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/10/161013103132.htm

"Explaining the numbers

The first nuance is one of definition. Infant mortality is defined as the death of babies under the age of one year, but some of the differences between countries can be explained by a difference in how we count. Is a baby born weighing less than a pound and after only 21 weeks' gestation actually "born?" In some countries, the answer is no, and those births would be counted as stillbirths. In the United States, on the other hand, despite these premature babies' relatively low odds of survival, they would be considered born -- thus counting toward the country's infant mortality rates."




So I was wrong about the terms. They would just consider them stillbirth but we wouldn't.

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 07:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd hate to disappoint you.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-health-care-access-1.6574184
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-03/canadians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care#:~:text=Canadians%20seek%20treatment%20abroad,care%20abroad%20the%20previous%20year.

Data is better than anecdotes.

What about CA--better than the rest of the country, or worse.

[Dill]

(09-01-2023, 08:14 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but Americans are significantly more obese than Germans. Source. According to this data, the United States is the most obese country in the world. 

Well according to the data you gave me, the U.S. is 12th.

I was just going by the eye test. I lived in England and Germany and didn't notice a whit of difference between them and Americans.
Maybe our youth are fatter? 

Guess that's why we rely on data, though.

Jordan is right below the U.S. That's also a head scratcher. Would have never guessed.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2023, 08:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Well according to the data you gave me, the U.S. is 12th.

I was just going by the eye test. I lived in England and Germany and didn't notice a whit of difference between them and Americans.
Maybe our youth are fatter? 

Guess that's why we rely on data, though.

Jordan is right below the U.S. That's also a head scratcher. Would have never guessed.

That seems aggressively pedantic. I think the top 10 have less combined population than Alaska or North Dakota, there's generally an accepted sample size requirement for rankings. Kuwait would certainly meet that requirement, though, pushing the US to 2nd.